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NearMiss
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Speaking of the A220...

Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:13 am

Seeing how likely a big order from Air France is, in order to replace their A318s, A319s and A320s, do you see other airlines going the same way, specially given how few A319NEOs have been ordered?

I was hoping Avianca, but that seems unlikely given their present status.
"There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
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American 767
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Re: Speaking of the A220...

Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:28 am

I see Westjet ordering those. Westjet could replace their 737-600s with those and the A220 could very well fill the gap between the Q-400 turboprop and the 737-700 on short and medium haul flights within Canada and transborder to the US. YYZ-BOS for example, or YYZ-ORD, YYZ- YUL just to name a few. It would be nice if Westjet orders those. Sure the 737-600 is still young, but I think that eventually the A220 would be a nice addition to the fleet and a nice 736 replacement by the mid to late 2020s. I don't think Westjet will fly the 736 past 2030. By then their 736s will be 25.
Ben Soriano
 
Jomar777
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Re: Speaking of the A220...

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:19 am

AFs chances to order the A220s would do to many as much as Lufthansa's order for it for SWISS - not much!
If they aircraft is good, has good support and can be delivered on a timeframe that suits the buyer, it will get orders. Otherwise, no chance.
For the A220 specifically, if Airbus cannot hamp up production quick, it will be left behind by the B737 (when it comes back flying) and, in certain cases, by the E2 and other MRJs...
Basically, you will not buy what you canot get delivered.
 
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keesje
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Re: Speaking of the A220...

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:31 am

The 300 pound gorilla sitting on the fence is South West Airlines. They need to start replacing their 3 cabin attendant, 500x 737-700s.

The A220-300 is much lighter, more comfortable, cheaper to operate than the 737-7. SouthWest is studying / eveluating it.
https://samchui.com/2019/04/28/southwests-airbus-visit-not-related-to-boeing-737-max-crisis/#.XTGNe-gzbcs

Southwest deferred most deliveries of their small 737-7 order early 2018 and there is hardly any backlog left for the 737-7.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-02/southwest-moves-up-40-max-737-8-orders-delays-23-max-7-planes

I would not be suprized if Boeing is trying to steer Southwest towards the Boeing Brasil E195-E2.

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kimimm19
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Re: Speaking of the A220...

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:15 am

I would think Airbus is keen to step in and take the Southwest slice of the pie away from Boeing.

The only question mark is deliveries and how quickly they can get these out as they try and build the necessary infrastructure.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Speaking of the A220...

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:18 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
AFs chances to order the A220s would do to many as much as Lufthansa's order for it for SWISS - not much!
If they aircraft is good, has good support and can be delivered on a timeframe that suits the buyer, it will get orders. Otherwise, no chance.
For the A220 specifically, if Airbus cannot hamp up production quick, it will be left behind by the B737 (when it comes back flying) and, in certain cases, by the E2 and other MRJs...
Basically, you will not buy what you canot get delivered.

You are correct. That's why the A220 is much better positioned than the E2 and MRJ: the MRJ has yet to enter service (and rumors are it's going to be redesigned...), only the 190-E2 has been delivered yet (and only a handful of them), while the A220 is in service with production ramping up.
 
Lavdumper
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Re: Speaking of the A220...

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:14 pm

What about the potential for Spirit Airlines to order A220s? I thought we would see some order by now - especially after the potential announcement at the Paris Air Show that did not happen. I would think the A220-300 would be perfect as an A319 replacement. When will this Spirit order happen?
 
rrbsztk
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Re: Speaking of the A220...

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:26 pm

Air Tanzania might be getting two more. It states Airbus specifically but not which model, so could be the 320, 330, or 350 instead of the A220. (330/350 I think are less likely...but they have a single 787 so not completely ruling out the possibility. If i had to guess I'd say A220 or A320... but Air Tanzania has a unique fleet).

""President Magufuli "has already issued instructions for the purchase of three additional planes (two Airbus jets and one Bombardier) to expand air services and improve tourism," the president's office said in a statement.

The presidency did not say how much the new planes will cost.

The airline's existing fleet includes one Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner, two Airbus A220-300 jets and three Bombardier Q400 turboprop aircraft."

https://www.reuters.com/article/tanzani ... SL8N24J6D1
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Speaking of the A220...

Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:15 pm

It seems the additional "Bombardier" aircraft inquestion will be a Q400 (now called "De Havilland Canada Dash 8-400").

The two Airbus aircrafts are indeed A220-300s.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 386
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Re: Speaking of the A220...

Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:28 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
AFs chances to order the A220s would do to many as much as Lufthansa's order for it for SWISS - not much!
If they aircraft is good, has good support and can be delivered on a timeframe that suits the buyer, it will get orders. Otherwise, no chance.
For the A220 specifically, if Airbus cannot hamp up production quick, it will be left behind by the B737 (when it comes back flying) and, in certain cases, by the E2 and other MRJs...
Basically, you will not buy what you canot get delivered.

You are correct. That's why the A220 is much better positioned than the E2 and MRJ: the MRJ has yet to enter service (and rumors are it's going to be redesigned...), only the 190-E2 has been delivered yet (and only a handful of them), while the A220 is in service with production ramping up.


Quite but remember that the E2-195 will have their chances once Boeing push them together with their own portfolio once the tie up goes ahead (it is already agreed but not ratified).

Remember: it happend the same with the A220. As a C-Series, it struggled to get anything apart from Baltic, some frames for Swiss the very very fishy order from Delta. Airbus swoop over it and... hey... suddenly Jetblue ordered at lot and we are speaking of Air France ordering them too.

I do not see Boeing too keen to promote the E2 now since they are too busy with the B737 MAX issues and might not see as advantageous since these orders would be ex-JV but as the time goes by...
 
WayexTDI
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Speaking of the A220...

Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:25 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
AFs chances to order the A220s would do to many as much as Lufthansa's order for it for SWISS - not much!
If they aircraft is good, has good support and can be delivered on a timeframe that suits the buyer, it will get orders. Otherwise, no chance.
For the A220 specifically, if Airbus cannot hamp up production quick, it will be left behind by the B737 (when it comes back flying) and, in certain cases, by the E2 and other MRJs...
Basically, you will not buy what you canot get delivered.

You are correct. That's why the A220 is much better positioned than the E2 and MRJ: the MRJ has yet to enter service (and rumors are it's going to be redesigned...), only the 190-E2 has been delivered yet (and only a handful of them), while the A220 is in service with production ramping up.


Quite but remember that the E2-195 will have their chances once Boeing push them together with their own portfolio once the tie up goes ahead (it is already agreed but not ratified).

Remember: it happend the same with the A220. As a C-Series, it struggled to get anything apart from Baltic, some frames for Swiss the very very fishy order from Delta. Airbus swoop over it and... hey... suddenly Jetblue ordered at lot and we are speaking of Air France ordering them too.

I do not see Boeing too keen to promote the E2 now since they are too busy with the B737 MAX issues and might not see as advantageous since these orders would be ex-JV but as the time goes by...

I wouldn't call the DL CSeries order "very very fishy", as it's been maintained and is being fulfilled; not only that, but the order has been increased or has has follow-ups.

The E2 has 153 firm orders (in the 6 years since its launch), the A220 has 551 (in the 11 years since its launch, 243 in the first 6 years); the A220 has had better sales success in the same timeframe than the E2, is more mature and has available reliability data.
It is better positioned than the E2 for future sale, especially with the reputation the E2 is carrying over from the EJets (expensive to maintain and lagging in reliability).

Future will tell; but I would not give better chances to the E2 vs the A220.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Speaking of the A220...

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:18 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
You are correct. That's why the A220 is much better positioned than the E2 and MRJ: the MRJ has yet to enter service (and rumors are it's going to be redesigned...), only the 190-E2 has been delivered yet (and only a handful of them), while the A220 is in service with production ramping up.


Quite but remember that the E2-195 will have their chances once Boeing push them together with their own portfolio once the tie up goes ahead (it is already agreed but not ratified).

Remember: it happend the same with the A220. As a C-Series, it struggled to get anything apart from Baltic, some frames for Swiss the very very fishy order from Delta. Airbus swoop over it and... hey... suddenly Jetblue ordered at lot and we are speaking of Air France ordering them too.

I do not see Boeing too keen to promote the E2 now since they are too busy with the B737 MAX issues and might not see as advantageous since these orders would be ex-JV but as the time goes by...

I wouldn't call the DL CSeries order "very very fishy", as it's been maintained and is being fulfilled; not only that, but the order has been increased or has has follow-ups.

The E2 has 153 firm orders (in the 6 years since its launch), the A220 has 551 (in the 11 years since its launch, 243 in the first 6 years); the A220 has had better sales success in the same timeframe than the E2, is more mature and has available reliability data.
It is better positioned than the E2 for future sale, especially with the reputation the E2 is carrying over from the EJets (expensive to maintain and lagging in reliability).

Future will tell; but I would not give better chances to the E2 vs the A220.


Not quite - you need to go a bit further here on all points you make.

1st - DL's order IS FISHY because of the high discount given. Boeing did not manage to throw this out of the window but it was due to technicalities beinmg a very narrow win. I would even speculate that, should BBD had announced the selling of its Belfast Plant earlier in the process, they would have lost the leveraged form the British Government and this cold have cost them the case. It is a great aircraft, do not get me wrong, but it should have been managed (the program) much better and with much less subsidies. As such, it is in the right hands now;
2nd - The comparison with the E2 is not as straight forward as you state. Only the A221 is a comparable product. The A223 is more a competitor for the B737-7 and an alternative/replacement for the A319, being its direct competitor before Airbus chipped in. As such, the A221 has only 90 orders compared to the 153 of the E2, have you realized that? The problem with the E2 nowadays is not really the reliability which you so mention (it is actually an innacurate fact otherwise KLM, for example, woul dnot have it selected neither the E175 would continue to dominate the market. You should check the fact s more clearly since only JetBlue had issues and those were solved - not to save the future there - but to kep the frame flying. Obviously, once Airbus took the project, there was never any chances for the E-Series to continue with JetBlue anyway). The problem with the E2 at present is mainly corporate. The project will migrate to Boeing Brasil and, until this happens, it will not form part effective of Boeing's portfolio as the A220s now form within Airbus. I actually feel that, within its caracteristics, the E2 is much better and will sell much more. As with the C-Series (now A220), it will get a large corporate behind which will pump up the sales.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1216
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Speaking of the A220...

Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:13 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:

Quite but remember that the E2-195 will have their chances once Boeing push them together with their own portfolio once the tie up goes ahead (it is already agreed but not ratified).

Remember: it happend the same with the A220. As a C-Series, it struggled to get anything apart from Baltic, some frames for Swiss the very very fishy order from Delta. Airbus swoop over it and... hey... suddenly Jetblue ordered at lot and we are speaking of Air France ordering them too.

I do not see Boeing too keen to promote the E2 now since they are too busy with the B737 MAX issues and might not see as advantageous since these orders would be ex-JV but as the time goes by...

I wouldn't call the DL CSeries order "very very fishy", as it's been maintained and is being fulfilled; not only that, but the order has been increased or has has follow-ups.

The E2 has 153 firm orders (in the 6 years since its launch), the A220 has 551 (in the 11 years since its launch, 243 in the first 6 years); the A220 has had better sales success in the same timeframe than the E2, is more mature and has available reliability data.
It is better positioned than the E2 for future sale, especially with the reputation the E2 is carrying over from the EJets (expensive to maintain and lagging in reliability).

Future will tell; but I would not give better chances to the E2 vs the A220.


Not quite - you need to go a bit further here on all points you make.

1st - DL's order IS FISHY because of the high discount given. Boeing did not manage to throw this out of the window but it was due to technicalities beinmg a very narrow win. I would even speculate that, should BBD had announced the selling of its Belfast Plant earlier in the process, they would have lost the leveraged form the British Government and this cold have cost them the case. It is a great aircraft, do not get me wrong, but it should have been managed (the program) much better and with much less subsidies. As such, it is in the right hands now;
2nd - The comparison with the E2 is not as straight forward as you state. Only the A221 is a comparable product. The A223 is more a competitor for the B737-7 and an alternative/replacement for the A319, being its direct competitor before Airbus chipped in. As such, the A221 has only 90 orders compared to the 153 of the E2, have you realized that? The problem with the E2 nowadays is not really the reliability which you so mention (it is actually an innacurate fact otherwise KLM, for example, woul dnot have it selected neither the E175 would continue to dominate the market. You should check the fact s more clearly since only JetBlue had issues and those were solved - not to save the future there - but to kep the frame flying. Obviously, once Airbus took the project, there was never any chances for the E-Series to continue with JetBlue anyway). The problem with the E2 at present is mainly corporate. The project will migrate to Boeing Brasil and, until this happens, it will not form part effective of Boeing's portfolio as the A220s now form within Airbus. I actually feel that, within its caracteristics, the E2 is much better and will sell much more. As with the C-Series (now A220), it will get a large corporate behind which will pump up the sales.

If you consider the DL order fishy due to the high discount, what do you call the UA 737NG order (instead of the CSeries)? Boeing did deeply discount it as well.
"Fishy order" to me is an order of convenience (dare I say, like the IAG LOI for 200 737 MAX at the 2019 Paris Air Show). DL has kept the CSeries order, and even increased it (with A220's, but it's the same plane); not what I call a fishy order. But I guess we have different definitions of what's fishy.

If you want to compare the comparable E2-A220, then it's E195-E2 & A220-100, respectively sold as 139 and 90 (the E2 Family sold 185 as of late June 2019, found newer numbers).
But, remember the A220-100 is the smaller of the family (which usually sells in lower numbers) whereas the E195-E2 is the bigger of the family (which usually sells in much greater numbers).

Overall, I strongly believe the A220 will be more successful than the E2; however, the E2 is an evolution of the E-Jet, which sold over 1,500 units, quite a nice number.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 386
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Speaking of the A220...

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:52 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
I wouldn't call the DL CSeries order "very very fishy", as it's been maintained and is being fulfilled; not only that, but the order has been increased or has has follow-ups.

The E2 has 153 firm orders (in the 6 years since its launch), the A220 has 551 (in the 11 years since its launch, 243 in the first 6 years); the A220 has had better sales success in the same timeframe than the E2, is more mature and has available reliability data.
It is better positioned than the E2 for future sale, especially with the reputation the E2 is carrying over from the EJets (expensive to maintain and lagging in reliability).

Future will tell; but I would not give better chances to the E2 vs the A220.


Not quite - you need to go a bit further here on all points you make.

1st - DL's order IS FISHY because of the high discount given. Boeing did not manage to throw this out of the window but it was due to technicalities beinmg a very narrow win. I would even speculate that, should BBD had announced the selling of its Belfast Plant earlier in the process, they would have lost the leveraged form the British Government and this cold have cost them the case. It is a great aircraft, do not get me wrong, but it should have been managed (the program) much better and with much less subsidies. As such, it is in the right hands now;
2nd - The comparison with the E2 is not as straight forward as you state. Only the A221 is a comparable product. The A223 is more a competitor for the B737-7 and an alternative/replacement for the A319, being its direct competitor before Airbus chipped in. As such, the A221 has only 90 orders compared to the 153 of the E2, have you realized that? The problem with the E2 nowadays is not really the reliability which you so mention (it is actually an innacurate fact otherwise KLM, for example, woul dnot have it selected neither the E175 would continue to dominate the market. You should check the fact s more clearly since only JetBlue had issues and those were solved - not to save the future there - but to kep the frame flying. Obviously, once Airbus took the project, there was never any chances for the E-Series to continue with JetBlue anyway). The problem with the E2 at present is mainly corporate. The project will migrate to Boeing Brasil and, until this happens, it will not form part effective of Boeing's portfolio as the A220s now form within Airbus. I actually feel that, within its caracteristics, the E2 is much better and will sell much more. As with the C-Series (now A220), it will get a large corporate behind which will pump up the sales.

If you consider the DL order fishy due to the high discount, what do you call the UA 737NG order (instead of the CSeries)? Boeing did deeply discount it as well.
"Fishy order" to me is an order of convenience (dare I say, like the IAG LOI for 200 737 MAX at the 2019 Paris Air Show). DL has kept the CSeries order, and even increased it (with A220's, but it's the same plane); not what I call a fishy order. But I guess we have different definitions of what's fishy.

If you want to compare the comparable E2-A220, then it's E195-E2 & A220-100, respectively sold as 139 and 90 (the E2 Family sold 185 as of late June 2019, found newer numbers).
But, remember the A220-100 is the smaller of the family (which usually sells in lower numbers) whereas the E195-E2 is the bigger of the family (which usually sells in much greater numbers).

Overall, I strongly believe the A220 will be more successful than the E2; however, the E2 is an evolution of the E-Jet, which sold over 1,500 units, quite a nice number.


We were not discussing UAs 737NG but, since you mention, I do agree - it was an order which in some aspects greatly ressembled DLs C-Series/A220 orders. It is actually interesting to mention here that whilst Boeing was perfectly happy to do such a deal (with the UA...) it did not accept when BBD did so with DL. As I always say, in several occasions, "you will always treat pepper Spray as an eye drop provided it is not sprayed on somenone else's eyes..."

The comparison for the E2-195 is indeed the A220-100. You are right - the A220-100 is a smaller version of the A220 project whilst the E2-195 is the biggest of their project but then we highlight a substantial issue here that is that both are in totally different segments and, as such they struggle for sales since the E2-195 is way too big for a RJ and the A221 is too small for a A319/B737-7 competitor. Both are necessary and will sell but I do not expect big number from both. It reminds me the B737-600 and the B737-500 as well as the A318, if you know where I come from. It is where the RJ and SH segments do cross and overlap. I owuld say that Embraer (or Boeing Brasil), on their current offering have a much bogger challenge in adapting their offerings on the E2-175 and E2-190 to a wider customer basis. For Airbus, I feel that they will concentrate on the A223 seeking, maybe in future, to revamp the whole A320 and A220 series to offer commonality maybe through an NMA program...
But until then, as you mention, both will get orders - just not as much.

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