Bonfire98A
Topic Author
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:44 pm

So an avgeek found a roundtrip ticket on Delta from JFK to MAD for under $250, jumped on it and shared the news of his good fortune on Twitter.

I have no plans to go to Madrid. I have no need to go to Madrid. I don't know what I'll do once in Madrid. But for this price, I should go to Madrid.

https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/1154435973264093184

A pearl-clutching meteorologist then proceeded to wet his pants because Climate Change.

...flying, just to fly, with literally no need to do so other than the price is cheap—that should be outlawed. It is just as deadly as a gun.

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2019/07/25/meteorologist-eric-holthaus-shames-aviation-buff-over-unnecessary-commercial-flight-because-its-just-as-deadly-as-a-gun-and-should-be-outlawed/

Now, that was just one person and his opinion, but this kind of attitude is quite prevalent among the Climate Change set, that the masses will need to learn to live without the freedom of mobility to which they've grown accustomed (among other freedoms) due to the "emergency." I shudder to think of what this could mean for civil aviation overall, if people were no longer "free to move about the country," to quote Southwest's old slogan.
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 713
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:46 pm

the plane is going anyway. What is this guy's problem?
 
StrandedAtMKG
Posts: 283
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:09 pm

You lost me at Twitchy. They're not exactly known for quality journalism.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 124
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:15 pm

Who cares, don't dignify him with a response let alone a thread on it.
 
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mikegigs
Posts: 205
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:16 pm

If you look on the original guy's twitter, he replied to his tweet with a screenshot of his purchase of KLM's carbon offset program, which offsets the environmental impact of his flight.

Tons of people go on vacation because they find cheap flights. Many of us can't afford otherwise.
Airports: BOS, JAX, JFK, EWR, LGA, CVG, ATL, CLT, DCA, IAD, STT, PVD, ALB, MCO
Aircraft: 733, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 717, A319, A320, MD-88, E190, E175, E145, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, Q400
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...a good start but a long way to go!
 
DFW17L
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:17 pm

Oh, the horror. Quick - clutch your pearls and say 10 Al Gore’s. There now, don’t you feel better?
Last edited by DFW17L on Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
andrewfarmer
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:35 pm

This is definitely trolling and should be treated as such, which is to say it should be ignored. Climate change is most definitely a real problem, but this is a misplaced reactionary attention seeking rant.

Aviation contributes only 5% of global CO2 emissions and aircraft are becoming more efficient with each generation.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:51 pm

andrewfarmer wrote:
Aviation contributes only 5% of global CO2 emissions and aircraft are becoming more efficient with each generation.


Last thing I heard it was 2%, although that was from an unverified source so it might be wrong.

Anyway, there are other things that pollute far more than aviation. For example shipping pollutes more than double the amount of CO2 than flying. However the largest CO2 polluter is animal farming.

Of course climate change is real, but people putting the whole climate change issue on aviation and trying to talk us into shame of flying are so far off that I just can't take them seriously. You can save far more CO2 by becoming a vegetarian than by flying less.
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:58 pm

I've never once seen a gun be deadly on its own.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:07 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
I've never once seen a gun be deadly on its own.


Some ancient guns had the habit of going off if making a shocking move, for example being dropped on the ground. That actually killed several people back in the days. Of course modern guns are protected against that, but that wasn't always the case. The first guns ever invented were actually more dangerous for the person firing them than for the person being shot at.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:43 pm

andrewfarmer wrote:
Aviation contributes only 5% of global CO2 emissions and aircraft are becoming more efficient with each generation.


Problem is aviation has a much more significant impact per person than any other sector. Europeans fly roughly 4,5 times more than Asians do, 22 times more than Africans. Americans fly a bit more. The catch? Europe and North America make up less than 18% of the world population. If everybody starts flying as much as we do, flying will shoot through the roof in terms of CO2 emissions. Aviation has a much greater impact per user than practically any other source of CO2 on this planet.

Flying emits well over 2 times as much CO2 as a modern car and almost 10 times as much as a train or bus. 20% fuel savings since the introduction of the 787 and A320neo? Ha! It is so little it barely registers. Aviation needs to cut emissions by at least 50% and as much as 90% in order to become blameless.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:30 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Aviation needs to cut emissions by at least 50%


Well, they did cut 50% over the course of time. A 707 consumes more or less double the amount of fuel of an A321NEO whilst both being more or less equally big, so there you got your 50% cut.

Of course the development of such fuel saving technology costs a whole lot of money that is being financed by the aviation sector itself. Raising that amount of money is only possible if the aviation sector is big enough, the economics of scale. If the aviation sector would have stayed too small, no doubt aircraft as efficient as the A321NEO wouldn't exist. The technology wouldn't be there yet. The fact that the technology is there is because the aviation sector is large enough to finance it.

And we're not at the end of the innovation process, it's still ongoing. Up to developing even more fuel efficient aircraft, who knows in the future even fully electric aircraft. However for that innovation, money is needed. Shrink the aviation sector and you slow down the innovation. Then the electric aircraft, that otherwise might fly in 2030, might not be developed until 2050. Or 2080. Or never.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:54 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Aviation needs to cut emissions by at least 50%


Well, they did cut 50% over the course of time. A 707 consumes more or less double the amount of fuel of an A321NEO whilst both being more or less equally big, so there you got your 50% cut.


It is 50% from today...
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:02 pm

VSMUT wrote:
It is 50% from today...


And no doubt that's possible, if you give it time. It won't happen overnight and it certainly won't happen by flying less. It can only happen by continuous investment in innovation. How long it'll take depends on how much money is spent on innovation, and how much money can be spent on innovation depends on the size of the aviation sector as a whole.
 
Turnhouse1
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:06 pm

It might be interesting if FASM (Fuel per Available Seat Mile) became something which was a metric as much as just CASM.

In the UK we have Air Passenger Duty which is charged per passenger. There are 3 rates; reduced rate for the lowest available class of travel (max 40" pitch) and standard rate for (essentially) all other classes, higher rate is targeted at private jets. Personally I would prefer it to be replaced with an 'Aircraft Departure Duty' where all aircraft taking off were taxed depending on their rated fuel consumption, so there would be an incentive to airlines to use newer, fuel efficient planes. And, airlines with premium heavy configs would have to factor this into their charging.
 
AMS18C36C
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:12 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
andrewfarmer wrote:
Aviation contributes only 5% of global CO2 emissions and aircraft are becoming more efficient with each generation.


Last thing I heard it was 2%, although that was from an unverified source so it might be wrong.

Anyway, there are other things that pollute far more than aviation. For example shipping pollutes more than double the amount of CO2 than flying. However the largest CO2 polluter is animal farming.

Of course climate change is real, but people putting the whole climate change issue on aviation and trying to talk us into shame of flying are so far off that I just can't take them seriously. You can save far more CO2 by becoming a vegetarian than by flying less.


No one is putting the entire blame on aviation. It only seems that way, as this is an aviation-related forum. You won’t see articles on here on how the agricultural sector is impacting climate change.

Planes are indeed becoming more efficient with each new generation, but I doubt that has much impact if the amount of passengers and planes keep growing.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:37 am

AMS18C36C wrote:
Planes are indeed becoming more efficient with each new generation, but I doubt that has much impact if the amount of passengers and planes keep growing.


So far that's true, however one day there'll be a turning point when, despite the growth of the aviation sector, the pollution doesn't grow anymore and eventually will even shrink. That turning point might be closer than we think.

Suppose one day we'll be able to build a completely climate-neutral aircraft, zero pollution. At that point, you can have an infinite number of such aircraft and the pollution still remains zero. We're not there yet, but we're working towards it.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:39 am

DFW17L wrote:
Oh, the horror. Quick - clutch your pearls and say 10 Al Gore’s. There now, don’t you feel better?


FlightRadar24 tracked over 225,000 in a single day which was a record. Al is not going to like this.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 5075751936
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
spacecadet
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:57 pm

Bonfire98A wrote:
Now, that was just one person and his opinion, but this kind of attitude is quite prevalent among the Climate Change set,


What is "the Climate Change set"? You mean "people"? Are we having a flat Earth discussion here too?

This guy you quoted said a dumb thing. Just leave it at that. (Also, news flash: people say dumb things on Twitter. Film at 11.) You're making a straw man argument right now and conflating a scientific fact with someone's misguided personal beliefs. I've found that usually when people do that, it's because they have an agenda of their own and doing so helps them promote that agenda.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Sokes
Posts: 239
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Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:57 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
I've never once seen a gun be deadly on its own.

But if it comes in the wrong hands?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgxSvFoQ59k
(watch first 30s only)
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3490
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: Flying for fun is "as deadly as a gun" ... ???

Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:32 am

Sokes wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
I've never once seen a gun be deadly on its own.

But if it comes in the wrong hands?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgxSvFoQ59k
(watch first 30s only)

The estimated billion motor vehicles worldwide are just as deadly as a gun in the wrong hands...and unlike a gun, they can be deadly on their own among society with the advent of autonomous vehicles.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."

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