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Cointrin330
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Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:38 pm

And competes with a daily VS 747-400 (JFK) and UA 767-400ER (EWR).

Curious as to what the logic is? Also, seems the A332 used on the route spends a heck of a long time on the ground at JFK, arriving after 12pm and departing at 10pm. How is this route profitable? It has been flying for some time now.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:56 pm

You answered your own question in that TCX keep it going as it's profitable. They go for the tourism passengers and offer great fares. VS and UA are a different demographic, including Business class cabins.

TCX is primarily a holiday airline and it's the NYC tourism trade that fills the planes. Hey, it's all money at the end of the day and they have their niche.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:58 pm

Ishrion wrote:
It’s a once weekly flight it looks like.


It's daily, at the moment.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:59 pm

Channex757 wrote:
You answered your own question in that TCX keep it going as it's profitable. They go for the tourism passengers and offer great fares. VS and UA are a different demographic, including Business class cabins.

TCX is primarily a holiday airline and it's the NYC tourism trade that fills the planes. Hey, it's all money at the end of the day and they have their niche.


Didn't actually answer my own question buy curious if the market can support 3 x daily NYC-MAN (TCX is daily at the moment). That is a lot of seats daily (744, 332, 764).
 
asuflyer
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:01 am

TCX sells a lot of package holidays to New York. It's a large market and the flight has proven to be quite successful, it has been increased to year round service and daily in the summer. They have managed to capture NY originating pax to the UK as well and fares are often somewhat lower than VS and UA.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:02 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
It’s a once weekly flight it looks like.


It's daily, at the moment.


Whoops, was looking at MT2866.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:08 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
You answered your own question in that TCX keep it going as it's profitable. They go for the tourism passengers and offer great fares. VS and UA are a different demographic, including Business class cabins.

TCX is primarily a holiday airline and it's the NYC tourism trade that fills the planes. Hey, it's all money at the end of the day and they have their niche.


Didn't actually answer my own question buy curious if the market can support 3 x daily NYC-MAN (TCX is daily at the moment). That is a lot of seats daily (744, 332, 764).

UA just upgraded from the 757 to the 764, so it's obvious there is money being made or they would have canned the route. VS were initially supposed to use the A330 but it's been a solid 744 route of late.

These are making money in the summer and during winter retrenched to drive traffic to LHR. Thomas Cook just cut theirs back and fly elsewhere such as Barbados with the planes.

If you were to look at LHR's catchment area for New York service, a decent chunk comes from the North. The routes ex-MAN are a handy option for travellers. MAN also has healthy cargo volumes.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:10 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Didn't actually answer my own question buy curious if the market can support 3 x daily NYC-MAN (TCX is daily at the moment). That is a lot of seats daily (744, 332, 764).

Actually, you did answer your own question... twice in fact.

They do it because the overall revenue garnered is greater than the direct costs incurred.
If the market couldn't support that, then they'd send the aircraft somewhere that it does.

Not sure what else you're actually expecting to hear.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tmoney
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:34 am

If I get $1 every time a reply says "You answered your own question" I can probably restart the Concord program, reopen the 757 line, convince DL that they can run pax service on C130J, and still have enough funds to make the second AN-225 operational.

OP just stated what s/he's thinking and curious wants to know what the rest of us think. No need to shoot it down.
Yokes > Side-sticks
Mingarladon heros. RGN.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:16 am

tmoney wrote:
If I get $1 every time a reply says "You answered your own question" I can probably restart the Concord program, reopen the 757 line, convince DL that they can run pax service on C130J, and still have enough funds to make the second AN-225 operational.

OP just stated what s/he's thinking and curious wants to know what the rest of us think. No need to shoot it down.


Building on what LAX772LR posted, any route has to be the most profitable use for the aircraft and it must cover at least variable costs (or they'd be better off not flying it).

So, in effect, the OP is asking how they compete against VS and UA and achieve profitable fares? Lots of busy routes sustain more than three competitors, even five or six. Is anybody suspicious of O&D demand between MAN and NYC to fill a leisure flight 3-5 days a week? MAN isn't Paris, but PAR-NYC looks to have seven operating carriers plus codeshare carriers.
 
westgate
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:04 am

MAN doesn't just serve Manchester, it is in fact by far the largest airport in the entire north of England, and therefor also serves as the major international airport for the cities of Liverpool, Leeds and Sheffield, as well as for any other decent sized urban centre relatively close by such as Stoke, Blackpool, Preston, Burnley, Halifax, Huddersfield, Bradford, York, Hull etc and even for places a bit farther afield like Middlesbrough and Newcastle (which have trains that go direct to MAN). None of those cities have their own flights to NY, except for maybe a few flights before Christmas on Jet2. UA tried with NCL but that only lasted two summers before they dropped it.

MAN has about 25 million passengers per year, second largest in the north of England is NCL at 5.5 million, LPL at 5 million and LBA at 4 million. In the same way that LHR is the major inter-continental/long-haul airport for the entire bottom half of England and Wales, making it difficult for nearby airports like BRS, BHX and CWL to support their own trans-atlantic services, MAN similarly sucks in passengers from all over it's respective region.

The combined metropolitan areas of Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and Sheffield have a population of around 10 million people. If you include another 3 million from the North East and Cumbria and 2 million from North Wales and nearby parts of the Midlands, it's probably safe to say that MAN has a catchment area of about 15 million people. So from that perspective, it's not at all hard to see why it can support so much capacity to NY.
 
DELTA777
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:19 am

Also, MT does transfer quite a bit of traffic to/from B6 flights in JFK.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:37 am

tmoney wrote:
OP just stated what s/he's thinking and curious wants to know what the rest of us think. No need to shoot it down.

It's not that, it's asking the same thing and thinking the response will be different.... THAT'S what gets them, as you put it, "shot down."


MIflyer12 wrote:
Building on what LAX772LR posted, any route has to be the most profitable use for the aircraft and it must cover at least variable costs (or they'd be better off not flying it).

Yes and no.

The reason I qualified that as "overall" revenue, is because a segment itself can be unprofitable, yet an airline will still fly it *if* it significantly contributes to other aspects of their system-- such that deterioration throughout the network from removing that specific route/frequency, would exceed the operational losses incurred by continuing to op it.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Seanster59
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:52 am

Greetings from NY. I flew to JFK last week from MAN with Thomas Cook in their premium cabin. Only difference between VS and UA was the IFE on MT isn't as extensive. But the fare round trip was half the cost of virgin premium economy. The flight was completely full. With 322 pax, 49 of whom were flying premium. Also timing both ex Man and JFK is excellent. Arrive at JFK early and depart JFK late.
 
SueD
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:14 am

The flight is also marketed by sister company Condor and surprisingly there is some transfer price conscious traffic generated into and from Germany using Flybe and Lufthansa connections.
 
David_itl
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:17 am

Per the CAA statistics for May and June, these are the passengers carried between MAN and EWR/JFK in May and June:

May: EWR 11374 JFK 36222
June: EWR 12826 JFK 39371

So roughly 100,000 passengers on the New York routes in 2 months. Yet we are always told airlines pulled out of MAN-New York due to "no demand". So that can be put to bed;

EWR is running at nearly 90% loads for UA on 764 yet for years, we had been waiting for the upgrade. An airline artificially restricting capacity?
JFK is more difficult to get individual airlines breakdown. If VS had 100% loads on the 747, then they would have carried some 27300 passengers leaving some 9000 to 12000 passengers for Thomas Cook. Based on the 12000 passengers, it means 66% loads for Thomas Cook. Flipped the other way, if Thomas Cook had 100% loads then they would have had 19320 passengers so 17000 to 20000 passengers for Virgin. Based on 20000 passengers, it means 74% loads for Virgin.
 
Andy33
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:35 am

One thing to consider is that the Thomas Cook group operates travel agencies (yes, real buildings, with real employees you can walk in and speak to) in just about every UK town and city. This is a sales network that Delta/Virgin and United don't have. While Thomas Cook retail agencies can and do sell tickets on any airline, they obviously suggest the in-house option first unless it is clearly useless to the customer. While nowadays many people prefer to purchase on line, the advertising impact of all those travel agencies carrying the Thomas Cook brand is substantial. There's also a lot of history attached, so brand recognition in the UK is enormous - the original Thomas Cook started selling travel in 1841.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:26 am

I have to say I find the premise of the question unusual, but I suppose I’m used to Thomas Cook’s long haul operation, and if the OP’s perception of TCX’s operations is akin to Ryanair or EasyJet that premise is perhaps understandable.

As it happens, TCX has a relatively large long haul operation ex MAN, including JFK, LAX, SFO, SEA, LAS, MCO and a variety of Caribbean and Mexican destinations. For how much longer remains to be seen (Thomas Cook group is in the midst of a takeover / break-up / investment / fire sale (depending on your point of view) and its long haul operation is a business unit which might be sold off if the group retreats to its core business.
 
Mullion
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:01 am

Just to add the airline is profitable and another thing even winter schedules still showed health loads
Dec 2018 was 21840 from EWR and 12085 from JFK with Jan 2019 which is probably the weakest month
17421 to EWR and 9472 to JFK, the United was still a B757 then but will be 767-400 all summer with 767-300 over winter
 
SueD
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?more than a year

Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:42 am

Manchester has been connected to New York by jets for fifty plus years !

First carrier was Sabena way before open sky’s were even a twinkle in distant galaxy or parallel universe.

Apart from a very short period at the start of 1982 when Laker went broke and 1984 when BA resumed their suspended service.

Even in the interim period British Airtours operated twice weekly 707 Apex charters to Newark.

Over the years

We have had

SABENA.
BOAC/ BRITISH AIRWAYS with a short period operated by the acquired British Caledonian entity - that shared daily 747 Gatwick - Manchester- JFK flight was the last to use BR flight more than a year after it went away elsewhere in the network.

Aer Lingus
Laker Skytrain
American
Delta
Continental/United
Virgin Atlantic
Thomas Cook

With Jetsave and other regular charters

British Airtours
TWA
TIA/Trans America
British Caledonian

Less regularly Pan Am
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:17 am

tmoney wrote:
If I get $1 every time a reply says "You answered your own question" I can probably restart the Concord program, reopen the 757 line, convince DL that they can run pax service on C130J, and still have enough funds to make the second AN-225 operational.

OP just stated what s/he's thinking and curious wants to know what the rest of us think. No need to shoot it down.


Thank you for that. Exactly.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:18 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Didn't actually answer my own question buy curious if the market can support 3 x daily NYC-MAN (TCX is daily at the moment). That is a lot of seats daily (744, 332, 764).

Actually, you did answer your own question... twice in fact.

They do it because the overall revenue garnered is greater than the direct costs incurred.
If the market couldn't support that, then they'd send the aircraft somewhere that it does.

Not sure what else you're actually expecting to hear.


Well, I was hoping to hear informed replies which pretty much everyone else shared. If you have nothing to add but snark, maybe you should stay off the post.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:54 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
And competes with a daily VS 747-400 (JFK) and UA 767-400ER (EWR).

Curious as to what the logic is? Also, seems the A332 used on the route spends a heck of a long time on the ground at JFK, arriving after 12pm and departing at 10pm. How is this route profitable? It has been flying for some time now.


Thomas Cook launched MAN-JFK a few years ago when they rebranded themselves and launched routes to various other US cities they hadn't previously served. At the end of the day, all the airlines operating the route (Thomas Cook included) are doing so because the demand is there and it's profitable. Additionally, JFK is a useful alternative for those who may have used to travel to other places via ORD and IAD but can no longer do so since AA and UA pulled those routes. AA also used to operate MAN-JFK but pulled the route, so no doubt a few passengers who previously would have flown with AA regularly now fly with one of TCX/VS/UA instead.

I'm really not sure how else this can be explained. If there was nothing in it we certainly wouldn't see three airlines operating to NYC from MAN year-round.

As an aside, I flew VS MAN-JFK-MAN last November on the 747. Bearing in mind last winter JFK alternated with ATL due to VS being short of aircraft at the time (787 engine issues), there were just under 400 passengers plus crew on each flight and VS' 747's can seat just under 450 passengers. When I was waiting for my luggage at the carousel, I observed quite a few bags with multiple flight codes that had connected on to that flight.

MAN-New York will never command the level of frequencies seen out of London, but there's a decent-sized market both from O&D and connecting passengers to justify multiple flights per day. I for one would rather use the direct services to New York than connect elsewhere.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:15 pm

UA and DL are big in NYC but don't dominate NYC. In fact, about 53% of passengers DIDN'T fly UA or DL in the 12 months ending 5/19, including about 20 million international passengers.

http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traf ... Y_2019.pdf

PANYNJ reports show 74 foreign carriers operating at the NYC airports. NYC is a very open and competitive market.
 
wv399
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:16 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
And competes with a daily VS 747-400 (JFK) and UA 767-400ER (EWR).

Curious as to what the logic is? Also, seems the A332 used on the route spends a heck of a long time on the ground at JFK, arriving after 12pm and departing at 10pm. How is this route profitable? It has been flying for some time now.


They are able to fill the flights due to the insatiable summer demand from the UK to NYC, along with a jetBlue codeshare that provides extensive feed at JFK. The long ground time allows for a large bank of afternoon and evening B6 flights to connect and possibly fill the plane.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:23 am

wv399 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
And competes with a daily VS 747-400 (JFK) and UA 767-400ER (EWR).

Curious as to what the logic is? Also, seems the A332 used on the route spends a heck of a long time on the ground at JFK, arriving after 12pm and departing at 10pm. How is this route profitable? It has been flying for some time now.


They are able to fill the flights due to the insatiable summer demand from the UK to NYC, along with a jetBlue codeshare that provides extensive feed at JFK. The long ground time allows for a large bank of afternoon and evening B6 flights to connect and possibly fill the plane.


Thanks. Cool. I did not know they code-shared with B6. That does make sense.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Why Does Thomas Cook Fly NYC (JFK)-MAN?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:36 am

MT used to interline with flybe from MAN before they were bought by Virgin within the U.K and across Europe so they did make MAN into a connection point (I was going to buy JFK-MAN-MXP with MT/Flybe back in 2016 for example).

I bet that they interline with other airlines at MAN too if i'm not mistaken.

Update: Here are the airlines they interline with:
https://www.thomascookairlines.com/en/f ... rlines.jsp
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.

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