LondonXtreme
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Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:38 am

LH flies FRA-DTW daily and will start 5 weekly MUC-DTW in addition next summer.

Why BA don't resume DTW, even 4-5 weekly with 788 like they did for other second tier and third tier cities in US?
 
johns624
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:47 am

I've heard from CBP officers that the FRA flight has a lot of passengers connecting on to India.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 308
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:04 am

It's about yields. The auto industry in the UK doesn't really have strong links to Detroit and the Michigan economy is hardly booming, nor is it a big tourist draw for Brits in the way that Nashville and New Orleans are. The 787-8s are tied up with better yielding destinations.

The other issue with Heathrow expansion is which route/frequencies do you chop to allow DTW to resume? And where do you take the 787-8 frame from? Competing head to head against Delta at their hub in a relatively small market from the UK doesn't make much sense. Routes with no competiton, like PIT, MSY and BNA make much more sense. There are probably half a dozen US stations that would likely see BA service before DTW. That said, it'd be a good route for an A321XLR with a 3rd LHR runway...if it ever happens!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:15 am

The question is there enough UK point of sale to make it viable? DL owns the DTW point-of-sale strength.
DTW-LHR on DL is not that great from fairly recent load factor data but yields may suggest otherwise.

Germany has had more O&D traffic from DTW than the UK in recent years primarily driven by business ties.
 
airzona11
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:18 am

Obvious one... LH Hubs are where the O/D are located. DL has LHR served well non-stop.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:35 am

I'm not surprised that LH does so well at US airline hubs. There's no comparison in the onboard service and lounges.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:43 am

LH is backed by the auto industry traffic and other business ties. BA does not have that.
Also FRA and MUC are much better airports than LHR to connect through to India or other countries.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:00 am

BA at LHR will suffer so long as they have to operate at an airport that is operating at 98% capacity. There are so many more destinations in Europe that can be reached from FRA due to the availability of slots.
 
Cilaos
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:21 am

Does VS flies to DTW from LHR? That would make sense given their relationship with DL.
 
LH658
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:43 am

Cilaos wrote:
Does VS flies to DTW from LHR? That would make sense given their relationship with DL.


They did not any more, but yes VS and DL have a partnership.

Also I can imagine LH gets a lot of VFR traffic to the Middle East and India, as they fly to Erbil, Amman, Beirut, Cairo, BLR, DEL, and etc.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:06 am

johns624 wrote:
I've heard from CBP officers that the FRA flight has a lot of passengers connecting on to India.



From what I've heard and seen (>20 trips to India myself), many Indians consider LH to be the best and safest. If they can afford LH, they will book LH. That's why the e.g. BOM/DEL-FRA-USA flights have many Indians connecting in Germany.
 
Geoff1947
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:46 am

BA not really in direct competition with LH out of DTW. As others have said it is DTW not competing with other US cities.

Geoff
 
Scotron12
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:27 am

Also that GM divested their ownership of Vauxhall in 2017...so the only US car company with manufacturing in UK is Ford...and they only make engines. Reports suggest that Ford may even shut up their factories all together because of Brexit.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:33 am

As I said yesterday on the LH's new routes thread, Detroit is the largest BA unserved market in the US by quite far.

In my opinion BA have given away DTW by not putting enough effort on it, prioritizing markets such as PIT or CHS shows it.

BA's network in India is much larger than LH's in terms of routes and frequencies, so they should be able to get a good chunk of the indian community currently flying LH out of DTW.
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752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
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MIflyer12
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:59 am

DTWLAX wrote:
LH is backed by the auto industry traffic and other business ties. BA does not have that.


There's a lot more to the German auto industry than MUC, STR and FRA. LH covers the secondary German cities with frequency BA can never hope to. Look at the largest 25 (or 50) worldwide auto suppliers and where in Germany many are located.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:13 pm

BA is certainly not going to make money chasing India traffic. BA goes after routes they have a good chance of filling their premium cabins.

Why would BA want to compete with LH anyway....and specifically at DTW?
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:54 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
BA is certainly not going to make money chasing India traffic. BA goes after routes they have a good chance of filling their premium cabins.

Why would BA want to compete with LH anyway....and specifically at DTW?


If BA isn't going to make money on India traffic then, why do BA have a the largest indian network of any european legacy? why they don't give away India-London market to VS and AI? Do you think LH doesn't want to fill their premium seats?

BA wants to compete with every carrier out there on making a profit everywhere where there is the potential to do so.

If LH grows at DTW, I'd assume they are enjoying a profitable operation so it's fair to discuss on an aviation forum like this, why another non-sky european legacy with a very large US network haven't been able -or willing- to establish themselves in DTW.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
airbazar
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:08 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
Also FRA and MUC are much better airports than LHR to connect through to India or other countries.

Sorry that is 100% not true. Not only that but all my Indian co-workers that i've talked to hate LH.
Connection times on LH to/from India can be 5-8 hours at FRA. The DTW flight actually has one of the best connections to India from the eastern US. If you look at flights from places like BOS/PHL/EWR it's terrible. Essentially as far as LH goes the further West the flight originates the better the connections at FRA. There's a reason why both LH and AF have shrunk so much in India and that is because the connections at their hubs are really poor. BA is by far the best European airline to fly with between N.America and India.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:57 pm

The daily Detroit route, which has operated for more than 50 years, is being dropped because British Airways said it is not making enough money on the flights. As the city's auto industry declined, Detroit became "a very challenging market to be in," the carrier said.

"The coup de grace came with 'open skies,'" British Airways Commercial Director Robert Boyle said in an interview. "We can make more money flying to Houston."

BA statement in 2007 when they cancelled their flying to Detroit.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:40 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
BA statement in 2007 when they cancelled their flying to Detroit.


Although 12 years doesn't seem that much I'd say the world have changed a lot since 2007, including civil aviation and specifically air traffic and aircraft efficiency.

Of course BA was to make more money serving IAH non-stop than stopping over in DTW, no doubt. I didn't need to be BA commercial director back then to say that.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
Scotron12
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:06 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
BA statement in 2007 when they cancelled their flying to Detroit.


Although 12 years doesn't seem that much I'd say the world have changed a lot since 2007, including civil aviation and specifically air traffic and aircraft efficiency.

Of course BA was to make more money serving IAH non-stop than stopping over in DTW, no doubt. I didn't need to be BA commercial director back then to say that.


I agree that there are better frames available today than back then. But also the auto industry has dwindled here in UK. Even Ford only build cars in Europe and then reimport to UK.

Yes..BA serves India tremendously but I guess overall the business case to serve DTW again is not there yet.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:49 am

airbazar wrote:
Sorry that is 100% not true. Not only that but all my Indian co-workers that i've talked to hate LH.
Connection times on LH to/from India can be 5-8 hours at FRA. The DTW flight actually has one of the best connections to India from the eastern US. If you look at flights from places like BOS/PHL/EWR it's terrible. Essentially as far as LH goes the further West the flight originates the better the connections at FRA. There's a reason why both LH and AF have shrunk so much in India and that is because the connections at their hubs are really poor. BA is by far the best European airline to fly with between N.America and India.

First of all, when I said FRA and MUC are better than LHR for connections I meant overall not just for connection times. And I was not talking only about India but other countries as well. LH is not timing their flights from USA only for India connections. Maybe their flight timings are more convenient for passengers going to other countries.

You also said FRA connection times can be 5-8 hours but the DTW flight has one of the best connections to India. Not sure if you are talking about the new MUC flight or the current one to FRA. How is a 7 hours connecting time at FRA to BOM one of the best?

Now for the other part, how has AF shrunk in India? AF still flies to BOM, DEL, and BLR. And how are connections at CDG poor compared to LHR? AF has decent connection times from India to all the DL hubs as well as cities like LAX, SFO, etc.
Also please take a look at the BA connection times to India from places on the US west coast. They are not very convenient either.
 
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fbgdavidson
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Re: Why BA can't compete with LH at DTW?

Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:59 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm not surprised that LH does so well at US airline hubs. There's no comparison in the onboard service and lounges.


Hmmm. I'd say LH lounges outside of FRA and MUC are pretty woeful. At EWR I chose to sit in the gate area over their lounge!

Whilst LH F is a pretty solid product I'd say their business class isn't close to class leading and PE and Y are, well, PE and Y...
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