Page 1 of 1

Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:14 am
by QR1350
Hi all,

Long time reader, but first time poster!

As I was casually browsing the net looking at where people fly etc, I noticed on Wiki that neither JAL or ANA fly to AMS. Wiki is not always reliable as we know, so I checked on Skyscanner and it does indeed look like neither of them fly to AMS. I’m quite surprised by this as it’s a fairly big destination. KLM fly to more destinations than just TYO in Japan, so there’s clearly demand to the country as a whole. I was a bit more surprised as AMS is not a Star Alliance or oneworld hub and therefore neither airline could be code sharing.

Now from reading plenty of threads here, I know the answer to why a route isn’t flown is generally financial and there just isn’t the demand to warrant the money to operate it. Is that the case here? I understand the both JAL and ANA operate premium heavy wide bodies and I would have thought AMS would be that kind of market. I know both have nearby alliance hubs with LHR and FRA/MUC, is that enough to just funnel through alliance connections?

I guess it probably is just financial but I’m relatively new to the aviation scene and didn’t know if there was a historical reason behind it.

Thanks for any insight!

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:11 pm
by lhrsfosyd91
Japanese carriers are limited to fellow partner hubs and major financial centers. Their average fares are rather high therefore there aren't many places where they can make money.

As you mentioned, there is no feed in AMS. This is also the case in MXP, FCO or IST.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:47 pm
by Skyguy
GRU was discontinued in 2009, and GIG before that. During the bankruptcy process ten years ago many routes were curtailed or mothballed and instead flown in cooperation with codeshares with OneWorld alliance partners or others.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:52 pm
by LJ
QR1350 wrote:
Now from reading plenty of threads here, I know the answer to why a route isn’t flown is generally financial and there just isn’t the demand to warrant the money to operate it. Is that the case here? I understand the both JAL and ANA operate premium heavy wide bodies and I would have thought AMS would be that kind of market. I know both have nearby alliance hubs with LHR and FRA/MUC, is that enough to just funnel through alliance connections?


ANA flies to Dusseldorf and Brussels as well thus covers BeNeLux fairly good. There is no point for ANA to fly to both AMS, DUS and BRU as the market isn't big enough. AFAIK JAL reduced their long haul capacity a few years ago, thus may not have the aircraft. If take ANA's presence into consideration and KLM's 10x weekly to NRT, it already covers a very big -part of the O&D market in the BeNeLux. NO reason for JAL to join soon. In addition, cargo is covered by Nippon Cargo.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:56 pm
by thuvah
Connections are always better for me :)

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:58 pm
by QR1350
Thank you very much for you replies. I guess that explains it, particularly the lack of feed, ANA serving DUS/BRU and JAL cutting back the long haul. Just seemed surprising from an casual armchair perspective that DUS was served by ANA over AMS. But hey, they know their routes and markets better than me!

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:20 pm
by c933103
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Japanese carriers are limited to fellow partner hubs and major financial centers. Their average fares are rather high therefore there aren't many places where they can make money.

As you mentioned, there is no feed in AMS. This is also the case in MXP, FCO or IST.

Well, as I have mentioned on the Haneda slot post, certain Japanese carrier could be getting a route authority to launch route from Haneda to Turkey. soon.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:37 pm
by lhrsfosyd91
c933103 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Japanese carriers are limited to fellow partner hubs and major financial centers. Their average fares are rather high therefore there aren't many places where they can make money.

As you mentioned, there is no feed in AMS. This is also the case in MXP, FCO or IST.

Well, as I have mentioned on the Haneda slot post, certain Japanese carrier could be getting a route authority to launch route from Haneda to Turkey. soon.


A route authority doesn't equal opening up a service. Carriers around the world hold various traffic rights without exercising them.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:40 pm
by lhrsfosyd91
QR1350 wrote:
Thank you very much for you replies. I guess that explains it, particularly the lack of feed, ANA serving DUS/BRU and JAL cutting back the long haul. Just seemed surprising from an casual armchair perspective that DUS was served by ANA over AMS. But hey, they know their routes and markets better than me!


Dusseldorf has the 3rd largest Japanese population in Europe.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:48 pm
by hooverman
JAL dropped AMS a few years ago. They flew the 744 daily for years.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:00 pm
by FlyRow
Weren't they interested again a while back?

JAL also lost there grandfather rights I believe at Schiphol, so getting slots wont be easy.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:29 pm
by hooverman
FlyRow wrote:
Weren't they interested again a while back?

JAL also lost there grandfather rights I believe at Schiphol, so getting slots wont be easy.


ANA requested slots for a couple of years but nothing happened. And that was before the slot constraint so if they really wanted they would have got them.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:38 pm
by zakuivcustom
QR1350 wrote:
Thank you very much for you replies. I guess that explains it, particularly the lack of feed, ANA serving DUS/BRU and JAL cutting back the long haul. Just seemed surprising from an casual armchair perspective that DUS was served by ANA over AMS. But hey, they know their routes and markets better than me!


There's a sizeable Japanese presence in Dusseldorf, including a fair size business presence. IIRC the size of the Japanese community in Dusseldorf is only 2nd to London (albeit only ~1/3 the size) in Europe.

For BRU I believe it all comes down to *A connection via Brussels Airlines.

As of right now, though, I'm guessing neither JL (whose network were shrink quite a bit during the bankruptcy) nor NH (with presence in both DUS and BRU) want to compete with KL, especially with KL being able to capture transit traffic.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:47 pm
by Momo1435
JAL starting Helsinki and the code-share agreement with Finnair has become their main Europe strategy when it comes to the destinations they don't serve directly. Amsterdam was 1 one off the 1st destinations where they offered this route via Helsinki.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:24 pm
by Jetty
Not just TYO but Asia to AMS in general is a Skyteam/KL monopoly. SQ and BR are the only airlines to AMS not part of Skyteam or codesharing with KL.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:38 pm
by PatrickZ80
QR1350 wrote:
I was a bit more surprised as AMS is not a Star Alliance or oneworld hub and therefore neither airline could be code sharing.


Actually in a certain way it is as Vueling has a base at Amsterdam. Since Vueling is owned by IAG, it is basically in OneWorld.

However the main carrier at Amsterdam is KLM which is in SkyTeam. Amsterdam is therefor a true SkyTeam hub and served by many other SkyTeam airlines like Delta, Garuda and Korean Air.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:45 pm
by PatrickZ80
Jetty wrote:
SQ and BR are the only airlines to AMS not part of Skyteam or codesharing with KL.


You forgot Cathay Pacific also serves Amsterdam, however they codeshare with Vueling which at least gives them some feed.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:07 pm
by zakuivcustom
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
SQ and BR are the only airlines to AMS not part of Skyteam or codesharing with KL.


You forgot Cathay Pacific also serves Amsterdam, however they codeshare with Vueling which at least gives them some feed.


You sure about this?
https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/ja_JP/ ... ships.html

Vueling is nowhere to be found.

CX does codeshare with flybe, though, on a few connections out of AMS.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:35 pm
by BasilFawlty
hooverman wrote:
JAL dropped AMS a few years ago. They flew the 744 daily for years.

And after that with the 772 for many years, plus several cargo flights every week. They had a quite sizeable operation at AMS once.

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:13 am
by MareBorealis
Momo1435 wrote:
JAL starting Helsinki and the code-share agreement with Finnair has become their main Europe strategy when it comes to the destinations they don't serve directly. Amsterdam was 1 one off the 1st destinations where they offered this route via Helsinki.


Yes it looks OW's 'Siberian Joint Venture' (AY/BA/IB/JL) works well for the airlines, Finnair and JAL being the closest partners. Getting JAL's daily service in 2013 was a big thing for HEL, this summer NRT is served 3x daily by AY+JL. In the coming winter AY opens Sapporo, that will be AY's 5th route to Japan. Perhaps Haneda is the next good news?

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:48 am
by Johnwilliams123
c933103 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Japanese carriers are limited to fellow partner hubs and major financial centers. Their average fares are rather high therefore there aren't many places where they can make money.

As you mentioned, there is no feed in AMS. This is also the case in MXP, FCO or IST.

Well, as I have mentioned on the Haneda slot post, certain Japanese carrier could be getting a route authority to launch route from Haneda to Turkey. soon.

Also heard ANA was going to fly to Moscow https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Compan ... -ties-warm
also NH confirmed that they will fly to Vladivostok this march although schedule is unclear right now https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... t-changes/. Istanbul sounds interesting although TK is adding extra frequencies in Tokyo-Istanbul and resuming Osaka