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Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:07 am
by Sokes
Very old B767 are still in use. There seems to be no suitable replacement so far.
Latam replaces A330s with B787. It passes the A330s, I assume -200s, to Boliviana de Aviación, which replaces B767-300ER with it.
https://simpleflying.com/boliviana-boei ... rbus-a330/

However a B767-300ER has an OEW of 86 t compared to 121 t for A330-200. (If Wikipedia is to be believed.)
Is replacing B767 with old A330-200 a common solution or did above airline need more capacity/ range anyway?
What are A330-200s typically used for at the moment?

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:06 am
by VSMUT
Of course second-hand A330s can replace 767s. Factory new A330s have been the biggest existential threat to 767s since the mid-90s. Loads of airlines replaced 767s with A330s. Just to mention a few:

SAS - Replaced with A330-300 and A340-300
Delta - Partially replacing them with A330-300, A330-900 and A350-900
KLM - Replaced with A330-200
US Airways - Replaced with A330-200 and A330-300
Air Mauritius - Replaced with A330-200 and A340-300
Vietnam Airlines - Replaced with A330-200 and A330-300
Aeroflot - Replaced with A330-200 and A330-300
Alitalia - Replaced with A330-200
Qantas - Partially replaced with A330-200 and A330-300

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:02 pm
by Sokes
VSMUT wrote:
Of course second-hand A330s can replace 767s. Factory new A330s have been the biggest existential threat to 767s since the mid-90s. Loads of airlines replaced 767s with A330s.
...


Yes, I heard before that e.g. for transatlantic traffic B767s were replaced with A330s which now get replaced with B787s.
From which distance onward is it done? Or is it more a question of capacity?

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:34 pm
by Sokes
While I agree A330 spoilt the business case for new B767, in most case they do not seem to be able to replace them.
Moreover B767s were quite constant in production at 40/ year till 2001.

"A total of 742 of these aircraft were in service in July 2018."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767
By July 18 something like 1120 must have been produced. Only a third of them were retired. By the end of 1991 405 B767 were delivered. If I assume the oldest around 380 B767 got retired, that would mean in July 2018 pretty much all planes younger than 25 years were still in service.

Therefore my question: With high rates of B787 produced, what happens to the A330-200 and do they replace older B767?
Or would an airline rather retire an A330-200 than a B767 of same age?

What is a typical distance for a B767 mission and what a typical distance for an A330-200 mission?
I assume the shorter missions get replaced by A321s. From which distance is an A330-200 "o.k."?

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:39 pm
by 1989worstyear
Sokes wrote:
Very old B767 are still in use. There seems to be no suitable replacement so far.
Latam replaces A330s with B787. It passes the A330s, I assume -200s, to Boliviana de Aviación, which replaces B767-300ER with it.
https://simpleflying.com/boliviana-boei ... rbus-a330/

However a B767-300ER has an OEW of 86 t compared to 121 t for A330-200. (If Wikipedia is to be believed.)
Is replacing B767 with old A330-200 a common solution or did above airline need more capacity/ range anyway?
What are A330-200s typically used for at the moment?


Yes, and this has been going on for 20 years.

However, the A330-200 is also an older and less efficient design, with examples going back to 1997. Therefore, a carrier replacing 767's should be looking for the newest examples, like the ones in question (only 3 years old).

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:56 pm
by Sokes
1989worstyear wrote:
Yes, and this has been going on for 20 years.

However, the A330-200 is also an older and less efficient design, with examples going back to 1997. Therefore, a carrier replacing 767's should be looking for the newest examples, like the ones in question (only 3 years old).


Why would Latam buy planes for three to four years? Was demand for long range planes so high that airlines would agree to an unsuitable design if only the delivery slot was not too far in the future?
B767 were delivered from 1982. 1997 is "very modern" in comparison. That's why I'm confused that airlines just don't want to part with B767s..

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:18 pm
by 1989worstyear
Sokes wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Yes, and this has been going on for 20 years.

However, the A330-200 is also an older and less efficient design, with examples going back to 1997. Therefore, a carrier replacing 767's should be looking for the newest examples, like the ones in question (only 3 years old).


Why would Latam buy planes for three to four years? Was demand for long range planes so high that airlines would agree to an unsuitable design if only the delivery slot was not too far in the future?
B767 were delivered from 1982. 1997 is "very modern" in comparison. That's why I'm confused that airlines just don't want to part with B767s..


The A333 is from '93, but still benefits from the 1988 Factor. That's still over a quarter century though and is a far cry from this decade's 787 technologically.

I guess what I meant was, it would not make sense for an airline to replace a 763 from 1998 with an older A332 from 1998.

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:36 pm
by VSMUT
Sokes wrote:
While I agree A330 spoilt the business case for new B767, in most case they do not seem to be able to replace them.


What do you mean? The 767 is practically extinct outside the US because of the A330.


Sokes wrote:
"A total of 742 of these aircraft were in service in July 2018."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767
By July 18 something like 1120 must have been produced. Only a third of them were retired. By the end of 1991 405 B767 were delivered. If I assume the oldest around 380 B767 got retired, that would mean in July 2018 pretty much all planes younger than 25 years were still in service.


Sure, but you also need to factor freighters and cargo conversions in. Some 340 of those 780 planes in service are cargo or military variants. That leaves just 440 passenger planes left, primarily with US airlines.


Sokes wrote:
Therefore my question: With high rates of B787 produced, what happens to the A330-200 and do they replace older B767?
Or would an airline rather retire an A330-200 than a B767 of same age?


Depends entirely on what an eventual customer wants. Given the commonality with newer A330s and the A350 as well as better performance, it is more likely that an airline would get rid of the 767, but it is not a golden rule that can be applied to all cases.

One fate is resale or release to a new airline. Virgin Atlantic took 4 second-hand Air Berlin A330-200s last year and the 4 KLM A332s found new homes very quickly too. Various Russian, ME and Asian airlines pick up a lot. Conversion to cargo is another possibility, as the A330P2F program ramps up.
If they are really old, part out for spare parts is another option. The spares can be reused on newer A330s after all.

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:33 pm
by Sokes
1989worstyear wrote:
I guess what I meant was, it would not make sense for an airline to replace a 763 from 1998 with an older A332 from 1998.


VSMUT wrote:
Sure, but you also need to factor freighters and cargo conversions in. Some 340 of those 780 planes in service are cargo or military variants. That leaves just 440 passenger planes left, primarily with US airlines.


Good point with the freighter conversions.
I found something about A330 P2F:
"The A330 conversion program comprises two variants – the A330-200P2F and the larger A330-300P2F. The latter is particularly suitable for serving the international express B2B and e-commerce cargo markets, which typically have a higher volume and lower density, states EFW in a release. "
https://www.cargoforwarder.eu/2017/12/0 ... king-tool/

So far I conclude as influencing factors:
-shortage of planes: Narrowbodies in the US are pretty old. Both WB and NB are in seller's market
-shortage of pilots
-low oil price
-air freight in US is done overnight in extra freighters, therefore no need for belly space of A330
-transcontinental US is nice job for B767, A330-200 too capable, A330-300 too much capacity at many/ most routes.

I had a feeling that in the US, B767 is hard to replace.
I guess I get my answer once new planes become more easily available.

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:52 pm
by VSMUT
Sokes wrote:
So far I conclude as influencing factors:
-shortage of planes: Narrowbodies in the US are pretty old. Both WB and NB are in seller's market
-shortage of pilots
-low oil price
-air freight in US is done overnight in extra freighters, therefore no need for belly space of A330
-transcontinental US is nice job for B767, A330-200 too capable, A330-300 too much capacity at many/ most routes.

I had a feeling that in the US, B767 is hard to replace.
I guess I get my answer once new planes become more easily available.


?

The US airlines were stuck in bankruptcy through an entire replacement cycle. By the time they began to recover, 787s were becoming available. They also had far more pressing issues, like getting rid of their hordes of DC-9s, MD-80s and 737 classics.

It was a lack of money, nothing else.

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:37 am
by KanaHawaii
VSMUT wrote:
Of course second-hand A330s can replace 767s. Factory new A330s have been the biggest existential threat to 767s since the mid-90s. Loads of airlines replaced 767s with A330s. Just to mention a few:

SAS - Replaced with A330-300 and A340-300
Delta - Partially replacing them with A330-300, A330-900 and A350-900
KLM - Replaced with A330-200
US Airways - Replaced with A330-200 and A330-300
Air Mauritius - Replaced with A330-200 and A340-300
Vietnam Airlines - Replaced with A330-200 and A330-300
Aeroflot - Replaced with A330-200 and A330-300
Alitalia - Replaced with A330-200
Qantas - Partially replaced with A330-200 and A330-300


Add to that list Hawaiian Airlines, which replaced all of their 767-300's with A330-200's

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:30 am
by 1989worstyear
VSMUT wrote:
Sokes wrote:
So far I conclude as influencing factors:
-shortage of planes: Narrowbodies in the US are pretty old. Both WB and NB are in seller's market
-shortage of pilots
-low oil price
-air freight in US is done overnight in extra freighters, therefore no need for belly space of A330
-transcontinental US is nice job for B767, A330-200 too capable, A330-300 too much capacity at many/ most routes.

I had a feeling that in the US, B767 is hard to replace.
I guess I get my answer once new planes become more easily available.


?

The US airlines were stuck in bankruptcy through an entire replacement cycle. By the time they began to recover, 787s were becoming available. They also had far more pressing issues, like getting rid of their hordes of DC-9s, MD-80s and 737 classics.

It was a lack of money, nothing else.


The 767 and DC-9 were from the same technological era.

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:46 am
by VSMUT
1989worstyear wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Sokes wrote:
So far I conclude as influencing factors:
-shortage of planes: Narrowbodies in the US are pretty old. Both WB and NB are in seller's market
-shortage of pilots
-low oil price
-air freight in US is done overnight in extra freighters, therefore no need for belly space of A330
-transcontinental US is nice job for B767, A330-200 too capable, A330-300 too much capacity at many/ most routes.

I had a feeling that in the US, B767 is hard to replace.
I guess I get my answer once new planes become more easily available.


?

The US airlines were stuck in bankruptcy through an entire replacement cycle. By the time they began to recover, 787s were becoming available. They also had far more pressing issues, like getting rid of their hordes of DC-9s, MD-80s and 737 classics.

It was a lack of money, nothing else.


The 767 and DC-9 were from the same technological era.


Of all the absurd things you postulate, this one takes the prize. The DC-9 predates the 767 by a full generation. 17 years, and the DC-9 left production the same year the 767 entered service.

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:33 am
by blacksoviet
Does the A332 consume more fuel than the 763?

Re: Can second hand A330-200s replace B767s?

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:19 am
by VSMUT
blacksoviet wrote:
Does the A332 consume more fuel than the 763?


It does, it is a bigger and heavier plane after all. But it also carries far more payload, which made it more popular for airlines that could fill it.