Zodiac787
Topic Author
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Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:38 am

Over the recent months, whilst many players have demonstrated the flying capabilities of future air mobility vehicles, numerous reports have shown that :
a) The flying public is not necessary ready to fly, much less in autonomous air taxis and
b) The vertiports/landing infrastructure are likely to be a bottleneck.
What do you believe a landing infrastructure should be like?
What are the next, non technological steps so that air mobility picks up?
 
ei146
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:43 am

People have to grow wings.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:01 am

Zodiac787 wrote:
What do you believe a landing infrastructure should be like?
What are the next, non technological steps so that air mobility picks up?


- something to protect ground from falling vehicles (near "vertiports)".
- auto-ATC rules to fly, almost the same like on roads. (easy to say...)

is there backup parachutes on those crafts?


- PARKINGS :rotfl:
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:14 am

1. It needs to be autonomous. This shouldn't be too hard as long as it is regulated early to ensure the actions of flesh bags don't have to be accounted for in the control methodology.
2. It needs to have vertical takeoff capability.
3. It needs to be quiet, this is the most difficult for me, propulsion systems that rely on moving air to to create thrust to get them off the ground will create wind noise and be a general nuisance in urban areas. if each person needs 200kg of lift force to get them off the ground then then fan of up to 1.5m diameter needs to make the air move at ~100mph. the key is anti gravity...

Fred
Image
 
ei146
Posts: 259
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:17 am

OK, on a more serious note:
Would be great if you could point to such a report. Because I do not necessarily agree to what you state.
There is not one thing, there is a number of things to happen, and all depend on each other.
The flying vehicles need to be reliable, cheap, really autonomous and available in numbers. None of the conditions met so far.
The whole environment needs to be there, landing infrastructur and maintenance just one piece of it. More important are laws and regulations for flying, insurance, liability, regulatory agencies and so on. Again, none of these exist.
As long as the only available option for Urban Air Mobility is a helicopter with a licensed pilot operating under the existing regulations this will stay a niche for the rich.
 
WIederling
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:31 am

ei146 wrote:
People have to grow wings.

Nah.

Teleporter Booth!
Murphy is an optimist
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:44 am

ei146 wrote:
As long as the only available option for Urban Air Mobility is a helicopter with a licensed pilot operating under the existing regulations this will stay a niche for the rich.


there are 3 different point in this one sentence:

- pilotless operation
- exiting regulations
- owning a vehicle (for richmen).

1) is questioned but already started to try:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/28/chinas- ... rones.html

2) what exactly issue created by existing regulations?

3) i living in Moscow and many of my friends relinquish to own car and turned to carsharing.
 
VV
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:56 am

It needs a brainstorming.
 
 
ei146
Posts: 259
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:30 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
there are 3 different point in this one sentence:

- pilotless operation
- exiting regulations
- owning a vehicle (for richmen).

1) is questioned but already started to try:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/28/chinas- ... rones.html

2) what exactly issue created by existing regulations?

3) i living in Moscow and many of my friends relinquish to own car and turned to carsharing.


1) Just another trial with an optimistic press release. What you need is proven, certified and in daily operation.
2) Try to land a flying vehicle let's say near Кра́сная пло́щадь. You will see what I mean. (Yes, I know, it was done before.)
3) It does not matter if owned, rented, shared. The costs are still prohibitive
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:00 pm

1) so? any journey starts from first step

2) i know that event funny for you, but please explain in different terms. i dont think you can land on white house and this prevent to create skyways.

3) yes for Robinson, but not for light planes.
So may be start to look at STOL planes.
anyway such things need to set up routes, approaches, etc.
Image
this one have 2*100hp engines

or autogyro/gyroplane?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL-V
 
ei146
Posts: 259
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:25 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
1) so? any journey starts from first step

2) i know that event funny for you, but please explain in different terms. i dont think you can land on white house and this prevent to create skyways.

3) yes for Robinson, but not for light planes.
So may be start to look at STOL planes.
anyway such things need to set up routes, approaches, etc.
Image
Image
this one have 2*100hp engines


But this is the whole point. Urban Air Mobility is about a car, taxi or public transport like service, e.g. taking the office worker from home to the office. Or some administrative people an their business trip from the airport to the White House door. Or the tourists from the hotel to the sights (like red square). No point to think a bout Robinsons or STOL planes. The place such infrastructure would need is not there in cities.
 
kalvado
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:35 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
1) so? any journey starts from first step

2) i know that event funny for you, but please explain in different terms. i dont think you can land on white house and this prevent to create skyways.

3) yes for Robinson, but not for light planes.
So may be start to look at STOL planes.
anyway such things need to set up routes, approaches, etc.
this one have 2*100hp engines

or autogyro/gyroplane?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL-V

If you're in such a bird somewhere over city center, and something fails - what would happen? If personal air mobility becomes predominant transportation mode, and crash rates would be on par with todays commercial aviation - big megapolis, like Moscow, London or New York City will see a single-digit number of crashes per day. If less stringent maintenance/operation standard is applied, that will grow into double digits. Some of those crashes will end up between people - and those props/rotors will make for an excellent meat grinder.
So: What is going to happen if this thing fails while in air? WHo is given the survival priority - those on the ground or vehicle passengers?
No, software protection is not an answer as it will be the first failure point - see Boeing and Toyota examples.
Not to mention someone crazy enough to direct this thing into a full stadium or something along those lines. It would take 2 minutes or less to get there from city peripheral airway. White House and Kremlin can get automatic guns for such situation, schools and kindergartens cannot...

You may argue that cars are equally dangerous (yes they are!). Thats why there is a lot of controls, both physical - curbs, dedicated vehicle routes, barriers, and logical - speed limits being a big one. It is hard to build such barriers in the air. ANd there is no option to pull over and stop for a flying machine.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:47 pm

kalvado wrote:
If you're in such a bird somewhere over city center, and something fails - what would happen? If personal air mobility becomes predominant transportation mode, and crash rates would be on par with todays commercial aviation - big megapolis, like Moscow, London or New York City will see a single-digit number of crashes per day..

its not time to say about predominant transport.
and i dont think you can fly Robinson over Mosсow center. You can fly around.
Must be routes with area to emergency land at almost each point. Welcome to "back to future", skyways and traffic jams. No "free directions roam over city". This is not about "existing regulations"

Interesting about emergency landing on rivers - this can allow flights to city center.
 
2175301
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:05 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
Interesting about emergency landing on rivers - this can allow flights to city center.


So now it has to have the capability to splash down and float as well as takeoff, land, and fly safely.

Since float planes, and even some of the old flying boats probably still exists, you are talking about a completely different aircraft than a normal airplane.

I propose that the first thing needed is a very large supply of several different kinds of unobtainium....

Please let me know when you find a supply of any kind of unobtainium...

Have a great day,
 
blockski
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:10 pm

There are no next steps because it's an absurd idea that will never go anywhere. It doesn't make any geometric sense for cities.

As it stands, for a city of any kind of density, cars are extremely pernicious. They are spatially inefficient ways to move around. We already have the technological innovations required for good, sustainable, efficient cities - and they are very basic technologies. Shoes, bikes, and the elevator. For short and medium distance travel, add in transit (trains and buses).

Cars are incredibly useful, but they cannot efficiently scale up without imposing huge costs - and the same would be true of any kind of personal aviation. Even places designed around the car (most American suburbs) suffer from this phenomenon: cars require space, which means lower density development, which means things are further apart, which means more car use, which means more congestion... which we stupidly try to 'solve' by building more roads that are immediately congested.

Personal aviation would be even worse - hugely spatially inefficient.
 
kalvado
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:14 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
If you're in such a bird somewhere over city center, and something fails - what would happen? If personal air mobility becomes predominant transportation mode, and crash rates would be on par with todays commercial aviation - big megapolis, like Moscow, London or New York City will see a single-digit number of crashes per day..

its not time to say about predominant transport.
and i dont think you can fly Robinson over Mosсow center. You can fly around.
Must be routes with area to emergency land at almost each point. Welcome to "back to future", skyways and traffic jams. No "free directions roam over city". This is not about "existing regulations"

Interesting about emergency landing on rivers - this can allow flights to city center.

Risk assessment. You can fly 10-50 professionally maintained birds over the city center, and they do crash once a year (I think it is about that in NY)
One you have 1000, and maintenance level goes down - it is a daily crash. 100 000 - about that many taxies in NYC and Moscow? Hourly crash?
It's a matter of time before something sensitive gets damaged with many casualties.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:16 pm

2175301 wrote:
Since float planes, and even some of the old flying boats probably still exists, you are talking about a completely different aircraft than a normal airplane.
,

no, it no need to operate from water.
just let people inside survive (may be with parachute)
Image
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 pm

blockski wrote:
There are no next steps because it's an absurd idea that will never go anywhere. It doesn't make any geometric sense for cities.

As it stands, for a city of any kind of density, cars are extremely pernicious. They are spatially inefficient ways to move around. We already have the technological innovations required for good, sustainable, efficient cities - and they are very basic technologies. Shoes, bikes, and the elevator. For short and medium distance travel, add in transit (trains and buses).

Cars are incredibly useful, but they cannot efficiently scale up without imposing huge costs - and the same would be true of any kind of personal aviation. Even places designed around the car (most American suburbs) suffer from this phenomenon: cars require space, which means lower density development, which means things are further apart, which means more car use, which means more congestion... which we stupidly try to 'solve' by building more roads that are immediately congested.

Personal aviation would be even worse - hugely spatially inefficient.

yes, of course.
personal car never be able to replace Moscow Metro.
this thing not to replace mass transit system too.
but as we not talk about total replace car with mass transit transport, we also can talk about limited number of flying cars.
And i prefer pilotless drones for safety reason

No one words about free roam!
 
WIederling
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:26 pm

kalvado wrote:
Risk assessment. You can fly 10-50 professionally maintained birds over the city center, and they do crash once a year (I think it is about that in NY)
One you have 1000, and maintenance level goes down - it is a daily crash. 100 000 - about that many taxies in NYC and Moscow? Hourly crash?
It's a matter of time before something sensitive gets damaged with many casualties.


Imagine some Helicopter mum transfering her brood.

biggest danger for kids going to school is being run over by some helo mum bringing her kids to school.
( in places here delivering kids in front of the school is "verboten"! Mom Free Zones )
Murphy is an optimist
 
Zodiac787
Topic Author
Posts: 7
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:55 pm

blockski wrote:
There are no next steps because it's an absurd idea that will never go anywhere. It doesn't make any geometric sense for cities.

As it stands, for a city of any kind of density, cars are extremely pernicious. They are spatially inefficient ways to move around. We already have the technological innovations required for good, sustainable, efficient cities - and they are very basic technologies. Shoes, bikes, and the elevator. For short and medium distance travel, add in transit (trains and buses).

Cars are incredibly useful, but they cannot efficiently scale up without imposing huge costs - and the same would be true of any kind of personal aviation. Even places designed around the car (most American suburbs) suffer from this phenomenon: cars require space, which means lower density development, which means things are further apart, which means more car use, which means more congestion... which we stupidly try to 'solve' by building more roads that are immediately congested.

Personal aviation would be even worse - hugely spatially inefficient.


Absolutely agree... Research shows that a car is used 5% of the time on average. But shared transportation, would it be cars or other means of transportation are meant to be more efficient... ANd better integrated.
The EU estimates that over 100 Billion euros are lost to congestion in urban environment every year so adding a 3rd dimension may have some sense. :)
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:37 pm

A helicopter based on drones, 5-6 electric motors 8-12 passengers, range upward of 50 miles, a pilot (for the first several years). Must be capable of landing with any 2 motors out, at least 5(?) minutes of flight available in worst possible cases. Could be hybrid but more likely not. I am confidant something like this will be built. When? No idea.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
kalvado
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:57 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A helicopter based on drones, 5-6 electric motors 8-12 passengers, range upward of 50 miles, a pilot (for the first several years). Must be capable of landing with any 2 motors out, at least 5(?) minutes of flight available in worst possible cases. Could be hybrid but more likely not. I am confidant something like this will be built. When? No idea.

Sure there will, and at $100 per ride both copies would be serving some VVIP on Manhattan.
 
2175301
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:22 pm

Legend has it that appropriate personal mobility devices existed in the general area of Persia many thousands of years ago: Flying carpets.

They rolled up for storage, did not make any real noise, had a suitable speed, did not pollute, and could carry several people along with various baggage.

How messy we are using technology to recreate things that we are told once existed... Just look at the cost and space needed for just a helicopter, not to mention a winged aircraft.

Have a great day,
 
Noshow
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:32 pm

What does it take?

Three points:
1. safety
you don‘t want things to fall on you
2. noise regulation
things must be superquiet to not disturb anybody anytime
3. privacy protection
nobody can peek in your garden or apartment
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:36 pm

Highly trained humans with thousands of hours of experience can barely operate a flying machine without killing someone.

And the average human can barely operate a car in 2 dimensions, i dont think they will be able to operate an aircraft in 3 dimensions.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:17 pm

kalvado wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A helicopter based on drones, 5-6 electric motors 8-12 passengers, range upward of 50 miles, a pilot (for the first several years). Must be capable of landing with any 2 motors out, at least 5(?) minutes of flight available in worst possible cases. Could be hybrid but more likely not. I am confidant something like this will be built. When? No idea.

Sure there will, and at $100 per ride both copies would be serving some VVIP on Manhattan.


$2/mile is less than Uber and Taxis. Downtown Seattle to SeaTac, 11 miles - $22, sounds like a buy to me. But that aside, it is not in the near future.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ei146
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:15 am

WIederling wrote:
Teleporter Booth!

Nope. As this would happen outside our space-time continuum you cannot call it Aerial Transport.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:21 am

Trying to solve urban congestion problems with flying cars is like trying to address your habit of drinking too much beer by substituting vodka.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:26 am

No, its not about "solving a traffic problem" or "replace mass transit system"
just small fine addition to existing variants.


but i agree, in this century in most cases common road car will be faster transport than air
 
VV
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:22 am

The only way to improve urban mobility is to live close to work.
 
WIederling
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:16 pm

VV wrote:
The only way to improve urban mobility is to live close to work.


But Airbus way of enabling that is so obviously inefficient to no end.
Murphy is an optimist
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:16 pm

Why go all the way to personal VTOL aircraft?

Theres are dozens of small general aviation airports located between most major airports. Some are located very close to city centres but have strict noise curfews. Electric 20-50 seat props will be very quiet and can operate from 2000ft runways.

On a short 1 hour flight passengers could spend 2 hours on either end getting to their destination by car and bus. The general aviation airport might halve the total transit time even if the aircraft is flying at half the speed.
 
LH707330
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:00 pm

VV wrote:
The only way to improve urban mobility is to live close to work.

And/or use smaller vehicles. The things an urban vehicle needs to do are as follows:

1. Not take up too much space per occupant
2. Be cost effective
3. Get from A to B in a reasonable time frame

A VTOL fails at 1 to a degree, and 2 for certain. The 21st century will be all about re-imagining existing tools and refining them to solve the problems we've got. Think e-bikes over Jetsonmobiles....
 
VV
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:21 pm

As long as they don't fly above my backyard, I am okay with those noise generating things.
In addition, I like my privacy in my backyard.
 
Noshow
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:15 am

The point is you must not convince possible drone users how good and useful drones might be but the general public to tolerate drone flights above them.

This discussion hasn‘t even started and it might keep drones from leaving their niche forever.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:22 am

Just look up noise complaints in cities next to major and small airports, then think about how these services are going to sneak extremely loud drones that will crash at some point (Statistically impossible that they won't) over cities that freak out over an A320 taking off 1 minute after a curfew.

Air mobility will never happen because it simply isn't profitable to run extremely expensive drones while fighting every nimby from Boston to San Diego over it
 
Toinou
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Re: Brainstorming : What does it take for Urban Air Mobility to take off?

Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:02 am

Another point the will prevent it from happening is the energy question.
The current trend is with energy efficiency. There is no possibility a vehicle that has to make itself stay in the air will be more efficient than one which simply use the ground and had to use energy simply to move in two dimensions instead of three.
In a future in which, probably, energy will have to be more carefully used and may be be not so cheap that it is today, the law of physics will go against such a project.

This plays into another problem that goes with the idea that it is not a replacement but just a complement. Like in places where helicopters are already used for urban transport, it will be an option only for the wealthiest.

So, in short: an inefficient way of transport, which is going to cost a lot and to fall on people's head. Looks like a student's problem for a PR school.

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