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upperdeckfan
Topic Author
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Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:36 pm

I did a search and was unable to find a thread discussing this, if there is one feel free to delet this one.

Travelling across continents I wonder how much time is wasted in security lanes because of the inconsistencies in checks around different regions of the world.

In the US you have to take your shoes off while in Europe and most of Asia you don't.
In Europe and some Asian countries you have to take liquids off your luggage while in US/Canada you don't. Although have been asked to do so in some US regional airports.
To make it worse, in most airports around the world there is no clear signage on what do you have to put on the belt.

Security lanes slow down significantly because -in the best case - people are asking security guards what should be put on the belt. In the worst case people don't take off what they are meant to and then their bags have to be screened and passed again through X-rays bottlenecking the lanes.

Is there any chance for the different bodies governing civil aviation worldwide to reach a consistent agreement on what have to be scanned?
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MIflyer12
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:52 pm

There no chance to do that until training is made consistent, all airports have the same scanning equipment, and all politicians view risk the same way - so, no, no chance.
 
a320fan
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:55 pm

It’s not just different continents/countries where there are inconsistencies. At My home airport MEL I’ve been yelled at by security for both taking my tablet out and leaving it in on different occasions, and it’s just been in the news that they’ve fitted new scanners so you no longer have to remove laptops in contrast to 90% of the rest of the world.
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mxaxai
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:00 pm

Another difference:
In the US and UK I have always been asked to take off my belt but never in Asia and only ocassionally in Europe.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:06 pm

OP's post is not entirely accurate. As recently as last month, I've gone through security lines in Europe where everyone was required to removed their shoes. Likewise, I have also experienced a number of instances over the years right here in the US when the TSA Precheck line I was in was unexpectedly put through standard screening, requiring us remove shoes and remove liquids from carry-on luggage.

Inconsistency and unpredictability in security measures are key elements of an effective security protocol. Why in the world would you want to make it easier for terrorists to be able to accurately predict and circumvent the expected security experience?
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Blockplus
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:17 pm

Funny thing about security. Randomness and inability to predict the process increases the likelihood of being caught. It’s on purpose.
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:35 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Inconsistency and unpredictability in security measures are key elements of an effective security protocol. Why in the world would you want to make it easier for terrorists to be able to accurately predict and circumvent the expected security experience?


While true in theory, there's no evidence that all of the "inconsistency and unpredictability" is due to design. I'd like to know how much is by design, and how much is due to administrative needs and random error.

It's a shame we don't have sufficient facts to draw a conclusion.
 
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Veigar
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:40 pm

yes they are very inconsistent, even in a specific country

for example, flying out of LAS, I had carried an aircraft model with me but none of the security questioned it or cared. coming back to las going through security at ATL they had wanted to take a closer look at it to make sure it wasn't a "weapon of mass destruction".
 
alyusuph
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:28 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Security lanes slow down significantly because -in the best case - people are asking security guards what should be put on the belt. In the worst case people don't take off what they are meant to and then their bags have to be screened and passed again through X-rays bottlenecking the lanes.


This reason, together with the increasingly "crumpled" seat pitches and seat width is promoting and pushing airline travel to soon become one of the worst means of travelling which is still marketed as the most luxurious :-(
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
STLflyer
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:35 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Another difference:
In the US and UK I have always been asked to take off my belt but never in Asia and only ocassionally in Europe.


I was asked to take my belt off in TPE the other day, FWIW
 
TheEuphorian
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:51 pm

STLflyer wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Another difference:
In the US and UK I have always been asked to take off my belt but never in Asia and only ocassionally in Europe.


I was asked to take my belt off in TPE the other day, FWIW

Meanwhile in Thailand (BKK, to be exact) it always happens that you have to take your belt and shoes off.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:21 pm

alyusuph wrote:
This reason, together with the increasingly "crumpled" seat pitches and seat width is promoting and pushing airline travel to soon become one of the worst means of travelling which is still marketed as the most luxurious :-(


Never traveled by bus or train, eh?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:39 pm

Good thread! Thanks for starting it. It’s one of these things that drive me crazy when traveling...

Veigar wrote:
yes they are very inconsistent, even in a specific country

True, there are for example significant inconsistencies between the security checks at provincial airports in China in comparison to the security checks in Beijing. There was a time when they were afraid of umbrellas (... this was long before the HK protests started...) and you had to take it out of your bag.
 
upperdeckfan
Topic Author
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:40 pm

Airports I use the most are always the same in terms of what you have to put on the belt.

Inconsistency by design to make an attack more difficult looks great in paper but I don't believe it's a reality
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YYZYYT
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:42 pm

When I read the title, I was thinking of larger issues of lax screening at some airports, v very careful screening at others.

My (personal) most extreme example is an airport in a small country, where I was literally waved around the metal detector because I was pushing a stroller - the guard apparently couldn't be bothered to do a manual check?. So, I boarded a commercial flight to Canada with no screening of my person, at all.

In some hubs (LHR, for example) all connecting pax are re-screened on arrival... if I'm not mistaken it's because of lack of faith in the screening process at all originating airports.
In the US, the customs procedure means that all connecting pax are rescreened as well, but in other countries not necessarily.

I would say that this is the larger issue than "shoes on or off?".
 
Elementalism
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:53 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
I did a search and was unable to find a thread discussing this, if there is one feel free to delet this one.

Travelling across continents I wonder how much time is wasted in security lanes because of the inconsistencies in checks around different regions of the world.

In the US you have to take your shoes off while in Europe and most of Asia you don't.
In Europe and some Asian countries you have to take liquids off your luggage while in US/Canada you don't. Although have been asked to do so in some US regional airports.
To make it worse, in most airports around the world there is no clear signage on what do you have to put on the belt.

Security lanes slow down significantly because -in the best case - people are asking security guards what should be put on the belt. In the worst case people don't take off what they are meant to and then their bags have to be screened and passed again through X-rays bottlenecking the lanes.

Is there any chance for the different bodies governing civil aviation worldwide to reach a consistent agreement on what have to be scanned?


I travel quite a bit for work. There are inconsistencies within the United States. One site will require CPAPs be opened up, other dont. Some sites require laptop\phones to be in one bin by themselves while others don't. Some let you wear a jacket, others dont. I got so annoyed with it all I went TSA-Pre so I dont have to do much except place my bags on the conveyor belt.

I just got back from Italy and their security was also a mess. Before I was even able to get into the area with agents from AA they required I show an itinerary????? Who carries those things anymore. So I had to find the email on my phone just to get into the agent area to check in. Once there I was then grilled by an AA agent about what I did at home, family, where I lived ect before she would let me pass by the electronic checkin kiosk and check my bags. Then we went through the typical outbound security stuff of standing in two lines.

But the grilling from an AA employee was so bizzaro. I work in IT and she was asking me about IT related stuff and clearly didnt know wtf she was even asking. I was trying to figure out what the point of it all was. Was she going to deny me the right to board if I didnt answer a question for which she didnt understand the answer?

But yes, I agree with you the inconsistencies slows the process down.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:56 pm

TheOldDude wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Inconsistency and unpredictability in security measures are key elements of an effective security protocol. Why in the world would you want to make it easier for terrorists to be able to accurately predict and circumvent the expected security experience?


While true in theory, there's no evidence that all of the "inconsistency and unpredictability" is due to design. I'd like to know how much is by design, and how much is due to administrative needs and random error.

It's a shame we don't have sufficient facts to draw a conclusion.


Hey I believe the TSA is now down to an 85% success rate getting weapons through their system. Down 13% from 98% a few years ago! Clearly being inconsistent has paid dividends.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:19 pm

Elementalism wrote:
But the grilling from an AA employee was so bizzaro. I work in IT and she was asking me about IT related stuff and clearly didnt know wtf she was even asking. I was trying to figure out what the point of it all was. Was she going to deny me the right to board if I didnt answer a question for which she didnt understand the answer?


Makes total sense to me.
Random questions about something you just said you did for living+lack of answer, long pauses, wrong answers, etc I believe are the #1 reason for triggering the yellow light on liars.

Been in/out US several times and 1 or 2 questions asked by security personnel are enough to let you continue or not.

At GRU any US bound flight has pre-checkin personnel who asks for your itinerary and Visa even before allowing you into check-in line, and they place a Security Checked tag in the back of your passport. Experienced it flying AA, DL and UA and don't see anything wrong on it.

In the other hand, just came back from LA, had online check-in, joined the line at LAX T2, just my passport was checked, then allowed to proceed to bag and body scan, no other questions asked, pretty smooth despite the long line.
 
Fiend
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:15 pm

TheEuphorian wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Another difference:
In the US and UK I have always been asked to take off my belt but never in Asia and only ocassionally in Europe.


I was asked to take my belt off in TPE the other day, FWIW

Meanwhile in Thailand (BKK, to be exact) it always happens that you have to take your belt and shoes off.


I use a belt with a plastic buckle and never had to take it off in Thailand
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angusjt
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:51 am

I've noticed several inconsistencies whilst travelling within Australia.

The most notable one is removing my belt, I'm pretty much always asked to take it off when going through security in Perth, but rarely ever in Sydney.
There's also a time I forgot to take my spray deodorant out of my backpack in both Perth and Sydney, and I was only asked to remove it when leaving Canberra the following week.
 
alyusuph
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:12 am

DarthLobster wrote:
alyusuph wrote:
This reason, together with the increasingly "crumpled" seat pitches and seat width is promoting and pushing airline travel to soon become one of the worst means of travelling which is still marketed as the most luxurious :-(


Never traveled by bus or train, eh?


I have, of course... but it depends in which part of the world. hehehehe
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
upperdeckfan
Topic Author
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:17 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
alyusuph wrote:
This reason, together with the increasingly "crumpled" seat pitches and seat width is promoting and pushing airline travel to soon become one of the worst means of travelling which is still marketed as the most luxurious :-(


Never traveled by bus or train, eh?


I have traveled by train many times:

    I can show up 15 minutes before departure.
    Stations are downtown so very short subway or taxi rides in/out.
    I am not asked to take off my shoes at security.
    Very seldom delays - much lower rate than when flying - .
    Wifi is free.
    Average speed is 300 km/h.
    Seat pitch is better than Y in most of narrowbodies.

This is western Europe......
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alyusuph
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:06 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:
alyusuph wrote:
This reason, together with the increasingly "crumpled" seat pitches and seat width is promoting and pushing airline travel to soon become one of the worst means of travelling which is still marketed as the most luxurious :-(


Never traveled by bus or train, eh?


I have traveled by train many times:

    I can show up 15 minutes before departure.
    Stations are downtown so very short subway or taxi rides in/out.
    I am not asked to take off my shoes at security.
    Very seldom delays - much lower rate than when flying - .
    Wifi is free.
    Average speed is 300 km/h.
    Seat pitch is better than Y in most of narrowbodies.
This is western Europe......


Thank you! Another reason why deteriorating Air Travel quality contrary to how it is marketed is turning to almost a scam now.
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
citationjet
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:56 am

I see inconsistencies such as:
Keep your boarding pass and passport with you vs putting it in the tray and run thru the scanner.
Years ago you took your shoes off in the USA, while in Europe you didn't have to. Even though the shoe bomber originated in Europe.
Laptops and shoes in separate plastic bins vs combiining them with other items in bins.
Empty water bottles. I have carried an empty one for years in my backpack with no issues. Once in Mexico they would not allow an empty water bottle, and confiscated it.
Jackets on vs jackets in the scanner.
Belts on vs belts off.
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Chemist
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:27 pm

I'm in the US and have TSA precheck. I regularly ensure all my metal is out of my pockets and then breeze through. But at one airport they chastised me for not having empty pockets when they saw a bulge (it was my non-metal wallet). I asked since I have precheck and I'd never through many flights been asked to remove everything from my pockets. The lady said I had to. So after I got through I asked a different TSA agent about it and they just shrugged. I think I just got a power-hungry jerk that day.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:07 pm

In the United States, TSA is inconsistent not just from airport to airport, but from one employee standing right next to another. "Yes, you may keep your money in your pocket" followed five seconds later (ironically, within earshot of the original TSA agent), "when we say everything out of your pockets, WE MEAN IT!".

This is not to say each and every TSA agent is incompetent, sadistic, or a combination of both. But a posting of the rules ahead of time would be nice, rather than trying to figure out what rules they are looking to enforce today. Post it at the queue where the trays are located if you want our shoes off, empty pockets, and with or without our boarding pass. It was done this way at Nashville, and it was not just the fastest and most efficient, but also the most humanizing of all trips through security.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:35 am

citationjet wrote:
I see inconsistencies such as:
Keep your boarding pass and passport with you vs putting it in the tray and run thru the scanner.


I was at a UK airport. They were shouting at all passengers to put their passports and boarding passes back into their bags. Result was that the queue was held up because everyone had to spend time putting boarding passes back into their bags. Security queue went around a corner, so you couldn't hear what was being shouted more than 3 meters from the end of the line. To top it off, in parallel lines with direct line of sight of the queue, the security people where shouting at people to take out passports and boarding passes.
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:03 pm

VSMUT wrote:
citationjet wrote:
I see inconsistencies such as:
Keep your boarding pass and passport with you vs putting it in the tray and run thru the scanner.


I was at a UK airport. They were shouting at all passengers to put their passports and boarding passes back into their bags. Result was that the queue was held up because everyone had to spend time putting boarding passes back into their bags. Security queue went around a corner, so you couldn't hear what was being shouted more than 3 meters from the end of the line. To top it off, in parallel lines with direct line of sight of the queue, the security people where shouting at people to take out passports and boarding passes.


This is relatively new, I think it's more to stop people putting their passport/boarding pass on top of their tray and it then getting knocked off into the roller conveyor or the mechanism of the scanner where it's presumably difficult to recover them from. Once you're through the Boarding Pass Scan into the security zone there shouldn't be any need to show anyone your boarding pass until you get to the gate.

The UK only allows domestic (and I think Irish CTA) passengers to connect without being re-scanned. It's probably the most diplomatic way as otherwise you have to define which countries you trust the security of and which you don't, inevitably some of the don'ts will get offended. Plus you have to route arriving passengers differently in the airport, if all overseas arrivals get sent straight to immigration, then security for those connecting it's much simpler.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:56 pm

Turnhouse1 wrote:
This is relatively new, I think it's more to stop people putting their passport/boarding pass on top of their tray and it then getting knocked off into the roller conveyor or the mechanism of the scanner where it's presumably difficult to recover them from. Once you're through the Boarding Pass Scan into the security zone there shouldn't be any need to show anyone your boarding pass until you get to the gate.



It was only at that airport, and as mentioned, only in that particular queue. The security numpties at the other lines didn't require it.


Turnhouse1 wrote:
The UK only allows domestic (and I think Irish CTA) passengers to connect without being re-scanned. It's probably the most diplomatic way as otherwise you have to define which countries you trust the security of and which you don't, inevitably some of the don'ts will get offended. Plus you have to route arriving passengers differently in the airport, if all overseas arrivals get sent straight to immigration, then security for those connecting it's much simpler.


Isn't it the other way round? Domestic passengers get dumped onto the street and have to go through security again. International to domestic transfers have to leave the airport as well. Only international to international can stay airside.

British airports are by far the worst in the world.
 
tomaheath
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Re: Inconsistencies in Security Checks

Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:01 pm

Hawaii seemed different than the mainland. Was told to leave liquids in my carry on. I usually put my wallet and phone in a bin was told to put them in my bag. Needless to say I was very disorganized when I was repacking every on the TSA belt.

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