iberiadc852
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Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinations?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:41 pm

Hi all:

As an aviation enthusiast, I've been lately interested in BAW fleet, in particular why they are having/getting nearly all the range of new widebodies.
In particular, the whole 787 series (they are getting the 78X next year), the 777 (they purchased the 779-X), and they also recently got the A35K, while also having 744 and A380, so I was thinking they could maybe try to cover all the British longhaul demand, deploying maybe some of the smaller 788 and 789 in secondary british markets like Manchester, Edinburgh, etc.

But I found that they only serve medium and long haul from LHR and LGW, while there are a lot of high capacity longhaul flights from MAN, by many airlines, and even from external countries (like EK and SIA, doing JFK-MAN, for instance).

Why does that happen?. Is there any particular situation for British airways giving up that market?
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited spelling in title
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maps4ltd
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:56 pm

Manchester is a stronghold for VS, EZjet, Jet2, Ryanair, TUI, and formerly Thomas Cook. Everything Heathrow isn't.
LHR and LGW (plus a few seasonal Europe holiday spots) are all it needs. After all, BA is essentially London Airways at this point, not even serving B'ham or Cardiff.
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DLHAM
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:06 pm

I remember in the early 2000s BA flew MAN-JFK 1 daily with 767s.
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iberiadc852
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:41 pm

DLHAM wrote:
I remember in the early 2000s BA flew MAN-JFK 1 daily with 767s.


Yes, and now VIR flies there and other USA cities with 744, 789 and 330. It doesn't seem to bother them being Manchester a preserve of the holidaymakers,
In the same way it doesn't bother them that LHR and LGW are a stronghold for BAW to fly to America and Asia, as Virgin also has many flights for those routes with big planes.
Last edited by iberiadc852 on Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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USAirALB
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:56 pm

Long ago before 9/11 I believe BA operated MAN-European flights using 733/735 equipment. I believe they also did a few BHX-European flights as well. I believe the plan originally was to have the A319s to replace the 735s on the MAN-European flights but the downturn after 9/11 and BA's "Future Size and Shape" program axed those plans.

The terminal BA occupies in MAN was originally supposed to be for BA traffic only.
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simonriat
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:40 pm

Because BA think people only live in the South.

And that the north is just wilderness.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:51 pm

Did BA ever serve MAN-MCO or has it always been just LGW?
 
bravotango75
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:52 pm

simonriat wrote:
Because BA think people only live in the South.

And that the north is just wilderness.

Spot On!
 
USAirALB
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:56 pm

The only other US destination I recall BA serving from MAN was LAX years and years ago with a 763.

They also did BHX-JFK/YYZ IIRC.
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chepos
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:57 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Did BA ever serve MAN-MCO or has it always been just LGW?


BA has never flown MAN-MCO.


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westgate
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:14 am

I think the biggest reason is that the vast majority of premium and business traffic in the UK flies in and out of Heathrow. That's where the big money is and so that's where BA concentrates it's services. After the London airports, MAN is the only other airport in the UK that gets above 20 million pax. There just isn't the same amount of traffic volume outside of London and the traffic that does use the other airports like MAN is predominantly low cost and leisure orientated i.e. inexpensive package holiday deals.

Even though MAN does attract some long haul foreign carriers, in comparison to what LHR receives, it really pales in comparison.

There are also other factors, like KL's AMS hub, which flies to a much broader range of UK destinations than BA does out if LHR. This somewhat reduces the demand for non-stop long haul flights from regional UK airports, especially when there's such an efficient and easy to access mega-hub just across the North Sea in addition to LHR down the road. The ME3 have also infiltrated UK regional airports, and in some cases offer the only year round scheduled long-haul services, such as EK at NCL and QR at CWL.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:19 am

chepos wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Did BA ever serve MAN-MCO or has it always been just LGW?


BA has never flown MAN-MCO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok. Wasn't sure. There have been times when they had more than one plane at MCO so I thought maybe they had served more than LGW.
 
deed30
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:31 am

BA did serve MCO from MAN in the late 80s early 90s using B747s originating at LGW. I seem to recall it was only once or twice a week and was only for a season or two. I also can remember the same for Batbados and Hong Kong both via LGW at around the same time.
 
AstanaMagic
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:11 am

Also missing ISB, operates from LGW with a stop over in MAN, I caught this flight every month for a year
2019: ALA, AGP, AMM, DXB, FRA, GYD, IST, KBP, KSQ, LGW, LHR, MAD, SVQ, TAS, TBS, TSE, XRY
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A/L: BA, IB, J2, JY, KC, LH, PS, TK, U2
 
Cunard
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:27 am

deed30 wrote:
BA did serve MCO from MAN in the late 80s early 90s using B747s originating at LGW. I seem to recall it was only once or twice a week and was only for a season or two. I also can remember the same for Batbados and Hong Kong both via LGW at around the same time.


British Airways have previously operated to the following long haul destinations from Manchester although not all of them at the same time. Some of these flights were direct or were an extension of the LGW flights, with those flights originating from LGW. Some of the destination's were inherited from the BOAC days that went via PIK such as Montreal, Toronto.

British Airways Cargo also used MAN with scheduled flights several times a week that went via PIK to New York JFK with a B707C.

British Airways have used a variety of jet aircraft over the years on intercontinental flying from MAN including the B707, B741, B742, B744, B767, DC10, L1011, VC10.

Long haul destinations previously flown by British Airways from MAN include the following...

Barbados
Delhi
Dubai
Hong Kong
Los Angeles
Islamabad
Montreal
New York
Orlando
Toronto

British Airways at one time had quite a large domestic and European network from MAN.

As others have rightly pointed out, when the current Terminal 3 was completed at MAN it was originally built for British Airways with expansion in mind.

Circumstances have changed a lot since those days and MAN is now well served by the likes of Easyjet, Virgin Atlantic, the European mainline airline's, Emirates and all of the other numerous long haul airline's currently serving the airport.

Long and Mid haul airline's currently serving MAN other than Virgin Atlantic include the following....

North America

Air Canada Rouge
Air Transat
American Airlines
Delta
United

Africa

Air Arabia Maroc
Ethiopian Airlines
Royal Air Maroc

Asia

Bangladesh Biman (begins 04 January 2020)
Cathay Pacific
El Al
Emirates
Ethiad
Hainan Airlines
Iraqi Airways
Oman Air
Pakistan International
Pegasus Airlines
Qatar Airways
Saudia
Singapore Airlines
Turkish Airlines

Long/Mid haul international airline's that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Air Canada (mainline)
Air Florida
Air India
Air Jamaica
Air Mauritius
Air Seychelles
BWIA British West Indies Airlines
Canada 3000
Canadian Airlines
Continental Airlines
Cubana
EgyptAir
Gulf Air
Jet Airways
Lybian Airlines
Mahan Air
Malaysian Airlines
Qantas
Shaheen Air
South African Airways
Syrian Air
Turkmenistan Airlines
US Airways
Uzbekistan Airlines
Wardair

European mainline carriers are well represented at MAN with the following airline's...

Aer Lingus
Air France
Air Malta
Austrian Airlines
Brussels Airlines
Finnair
Iberia Express
Icelandair
KLM
Lufthansa
SAS Scandinavian
Swiss
TAP Air Portugal

European mainline carriers that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Adria Airlines
Air Baltic
Air Serbia
Alitalia
Croatian Airlines
CSA Czheck Airlines
Cyprus Airways
Estonian Airways
Iberia
JAT Yugoslav Airlines
LOT Polish Airlines
Luxair
Malev Hungarian Airlines
Sabena
Swissair

If British Airways rentered the MAN market they would be under stiff competition from the current airline's with the obvious destinations within Europe such as Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Dublin, Frankfurt, Munich, Paris, etc already well served. The same could be said for the obvious long haul destinations such as Barbados, Dubai, Hong Kong, New York, Orlando, Toronto.

British Airways are best served via it's hub at LHR and to a lesser extent LGW although MAN no longer has a connection to London's second airport.

British Airways concentrating their hub operations in London is no different to what Air France do with Paris. In today's aviation environment and the fact that MAN is well served by it's current airline portfolio and a growing one at that it's safe to say that British Airways are doing the right thing. It's far too late for British Airways to re-enter the MAN market to make any impact be it European or long haul as the current airline's have it covered. British Airways would have to start from scratch if they ever contemplated operations from Manchester again.

As it stands the MAN to LHR route covers any flight connections onto the wider British Airways route network but judging by the growth at MAN over the last few years especially by the long haul airline's it''s fairly obvious that the ''majority'' of the local catchment area are flying direct from MAN with the current airline's rather than using British Airways via LHR.

Only British Airways know the exact figures and data for those traveling from Manchester to LHR and LGW for onward flights and I'm sure that if British Airways thought it was viable enough to re-enter the MAN market they would have announced something by now.

But in saying all of that I would personally love to see British Airways return to MAN with a comprehensive European and long haul network and along with their flight to LHR reopening a connection to LGW again. But at the present time and even including outstanding orders British Airways don't currently have any available aircraft to reopen a base at MAN.

Perhaps once LGW eventually recieves the B737 MAX in a few years time British Airways might consider extending the leases and moving some of the current LGW fleet to MAN including some high density B777's transferred from LHR instead of moving them to LGW. British Airways could always rethink their disposals of existing LHR short haul aircraft and transfer them to a possible MAN base. That would coincide nicely with the completion of the Terminal 2 redevelopment at MAN and possibly free up space at Terminal 3 for an expansion by British Airways and it's Oneworld partners.

I'm hopeful though that once Manchester Airport is fully redeveloped and that includes the demolition of Terminal 1 and a possible expansion of Terminal 3 British Airways will be more of a player at the airport other than it's current flights to LHR and the weekend BACF flights!

I've not touched on Birmingham, Edinburgh or Glasgow as I was clearly concentrating on Manchester.
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DobboDobbo
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:26 am

I have very little to add to Cunard’s post, which i think is an excellent and comprehensive summary of the present position in answer to the OP.

What I would add is that there is likely the potential for a relatively large hub based operation, but BA’s focus is quite rightly on LHR and that is in relatively close proximity to MAN and there is therefore little to be gained for them in operating anything other than a shuttle at this stage.

However, BA are loosing a relatively significant volume of passengers year on year at MAN. This is likely due to the increase of direct options over the recent years. This trend is likely to continue as (based on a variety of public statements including press releases, interviews and court documents) VS are keen on and appear to be setting up a hub at MAN - which is likely to include more TATL flying.

If that is a success, it is likely to substantially lock out BA from the second largest aviation, tourist and commercial market in the UK outside of London. That may or may not be something BA are prepared to do (as Cunard says only they have the data and there is a huge gap between London and everywhere else in the UK) but it likely represents the last chance saloon in the foreseeable future to do anything about it.
 
mark1484
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Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:50 am

Cunard wrote:
deed30 wrote:
BA did serve MCO from MAN in the late 80s early 90s using B747s originating at LGW. I seem to recall it was only once or twice a week and was only for a season or two. I also can remember the same for Batbados and Hong Kong both via LGW at around the same time.


British Airways have previously operated to the following long haul destinations from Manchester although not all of them at the same time. Some of these flights were direct or were an extension of the LGW flights, with those flights originating from LGW. Some of the destination's were inherited from the BOAC days that went via PIK such as Montreal, Toronto.

British Airways Cargo also used MAN with scheduled flights several times a week that went via PIK to New York JFK with a B707C.

British Airways have used a variety of jet aircraft over the years on intercontinental flying from MAN including the B707, B741, B742, B744, B767, DC10, L1011, VC10.

Long haul destinations previously flown by British Airways from MAN include the following...

Barbados
Delhi
Dubai
Hong Kong
Los Angeles
Islamabad
Montreal
New York
Orlando
Toronto

British Airways at one time had quite a large domestic and European network from MAN.

As others have rightly pointed out, when the current Terminal 3 was completed at MAN it was originally built for British Airways with expansion in mind.

Circumstances have changed a lot since those days and MAN is now well served by the likes of Easyjet, Virgin Atlantic, the European mainline airline's, Emirates and all of the other numerous long haul airline's currently serving the airport.

Long and Mid haul airline's currently serving MAN other than Virgin Atlantic include the following....

North America

Air Canada Rouge
Air Transat
American Airlines
Delta
United

Africa

Air Arabia Maroc
Ethiopian Airlines
Royal Air Maroc

Asia

Bangladesh Biman (begins 04 January 2020)
Cathay Pacific
El Al
Emirates
Ethiad
Hainan Airlines
Iraqi Airways
Oman Air
Pakistan International
Pegasus Airlines
Qatar Airways
Saudia
Singapore Airlines
Turkish Airlines

Long/Mid haul international airline's that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Air Canada (mainline)
Air Florida
Air India
Air Jamaica
Air Mauritius
Air Seychelles
BWIA British West Indies Airlines
Canada 3000
Canadian Airlines
Continental Airlines
Cubana
EgyptAir
Gulf Air
Jet Airways
Lybian Airlines
Mahan Air
Malaysian Airlines
Qantas
Shaheen Air
South African Airways
Syrian Air
Turkmenistan Airlines
US Airways
Uzbekistan Airlines
Wardair

European mainline carriers are well represented at MAN with the following airline's...

Aer Lingus
Air France
Air Malta
Austrian Airlines
Brussels Airlines
Finnair
Iberia Express
Icelandair
KLM
Lufthansa
SAS Scandinavian
Swiss
TAP Air Portugal

European mainline carriers that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Adria Airlines
Air Baltic
Air Serbia
Alitalia
Croatian Airlines
CSA Czheck Airlines
Cyprus Airways
Estonian Airways
Iberia
JAT Yugoslav Airlines
LOT Polish Airlines
Luxair
Malev Hungarian Airlines
Sabena
Swissair

If British Airways rentered the MAN market they would be under stiff competition from the current airline's with the obvious destinations within Europe such as Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Dublin, Frankfurt, Munich, Paris, etc already well served. The same could be said for the obvious long haul destinations such as Barbados, Dubai, Hong Kong, New York, Orlando, Toronto.

British Airways are best served via it's hub at LHR and to a lesser extent LGW although MAN no longer has a connection to London's second airport.

British Airways concentrating their hub operations in London is no different to what Air France do with Paris. In today's aviation environment and the fact that MAN is well served by it's current airline portfolio and a growing one at that it's safe to say that British Airways are doing the right thing. It's far too late for British Airways to re-enter the MAN market to make any impact be it European or long haul as the current airline's have it covered. British Airways would have to start from scratch if they ever contemplated operations from Manchester again.

As it stands the MAN to LHR route covers any flight connections onto the wider British Airways route network but judging by the growth at MAN over the last few years especially by the long haul airline's it''s fairly obvious that the ''majority'' of the local catchment area are flying direct from MAN with the current airline's rather than using British Airways via LHR.

Only British Airways know the exact figures and data for those traveling from Manchester to LHR and LGW for onward flights and I'm sure that if British Airways thought it was viable enough to re-enter the MAN market they would have announced something by now.

But in saying all of that I would personally love to see British Airways return to MAN with a comprehensive European and long haul network and along with their flight to LHR reopening a connection to LGW again. But at the present time and even including outstanding orders British Airways don't currently have any available aircraft to reopen a base at MAN.

Perhaps once LGW eventually recieves the B737 MAX in a few years time British Airways might consider extending the leases and moving some of the current LGW fleet to MAN including some high density B777's transferred from LHR instead of moving them to LGW. British Airways could always rethink their disposals of existing LHR short haul aircraft and transfer them to a possible MAN base. That would coincide nicely with the completion of the Terminal 2 redevelopment at MAN and possibly free up space at Terminal 3 for an expansion by British Airways and it's Oneworld partners.

I'm hopeful though that once Manchester Airport is fully redeveloped and that includes the demolition of Terminal 1 and a possible expansion of Terminal 3 British Airways will be more of a player at the airport other than it's current flights to LHR and the weekend BACF flights!

I've not touched on Birmingham, Edinburgh or Glasgow as I was clearly concentrating on Manchester.


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Turnhouse1
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:14 am

The BA Connect European services were stopped in March 2007, in some cases BMI took them over for a while.
The MAN-JFK service was stopped in October 2008.

It's hard to see the economics of BA mainline working at MAN, if they do re-enter the market, I'd expect a Vueling/Level brand, service and cost base to be used.
 
bhxalex
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:23 am

MAN does not have the premium traffic to support a BA hub with destinations similar to LHR. The competition to bucket and spade destinations is fierce currently and BA could not compete on costs against EZY or FR. The airport is full at peak times, so logistically it wouldn't be possible without an existing airline with a base closing their operation to make way.

MAN is extremely well served with direct and one stop options imo.
 
eurotrader85
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:32 am

As I remember the BA MAN - JFK flight was stopped as it was losing bucket loads of cash. I even remember them saying at the time they had persevered with it for a long time as they didn't want to basically leave MAN altogether, but in the end economics have to talk. As others have mentioned above, MAN just doesn't have enough premium traffic to justify building a hub or focus city out of. It has a decent amount of Pax, but everyone can serve them well enough connecting to their own hubs.
 
David_itl
Posts: 6365
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:41 am

So you mean like Thomas Cook and their 24 slot pairs?

the problem would always be not trusting BA to actually serve MAN/the regions properly. Remember they preferred passengers to go MAN-LHR-elsewhere rather than non-stop MAN-elsewhere.

Astounding to think they wilfullly cede the market to DL/VS.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:06 am

bhxalex wrote:
MAN does not have the premium traffic to support a BA hub with destinations similar to LHR. The competition to bucket and spade destinations is fierce currently and BA could not compete on costs against EZY or FR. The airport is full at peak times, so logistically it wouldn't be possible without an existing airline with a base closing their operation to make way.

MAN is extremely well served with direct and one stop options imo.


I don’t think anyone is comparing the opportunity BA might have at MAN to its existing LHR operation (except you). The type of operation I believe most have in mind is akin to the VS operation, with BA flying to its US partner’s hubs (eg JFK, ORD, DFW, LAX). The issue BA have (and have always had) that VS do not have is the presence of the hub at LHR and their desire to route passengers from MAN over LHR - which has undermined direct BA services from MAN in the past.

As has been observed elsewhere, thomas cook’s demise leaves a reasonable hole in MAN’s portfolio that VS have expressed a desire to fill.

Irrespective of whether BA do anything, it seems likely that over the next 3-5 years the MAN as a hub hypothesis may be put to the test.
 
iberiadc852
Topic Author
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:23 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:38 am

I didn't expect so much and so good information, thank you.
With Cunnard post I understand MAN is well served, but I think airlines opportunities don't only lay on bad served markets.
There's even a recent thread of BAW "studying" the bussiness case of flying DUB from LGW, while at the same time, it seems, DUB from London (LGW/LHR) is already quite well served by a bunch of companies (including BAW from LHR, obviously)

As David_itl posted, it seems a little naive or maybe lazy, to serve nowadays a market like MAN, only through LHR or just miss it; maybe there are other bussiness cases there in MAN as well.
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
bhxalex
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:55 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
bhxalex wrote:
MAN does not have the premium traffic to support a BA hub with destinations similar to LHR. The competition to bucket and spade destinations is fierce currently and BA could not compete on costs against EZY or FR. The airport is full at peak times, so logistically it wouldn't be possible without an existing airline with a base closing their operation to make way.

MAN is extremely well served with direct and one stop options imo.


I don’t think anyone is comparing the opportunity BA might have at MAN to its existing LHR operation (except you). The type of operation I believe most have in mind is akin to the VS operation, with BA flying to its US partner’s hubs (eg JFK, ORD, DFW, LAX). The issue BA have (and have always had) that VS do not have is the presence of the hub at LHR and their desire to route passengers from MAN over LHR - which has undermined direct BA services from MAN in the past.

As has been observed elsewhere, thomas cook’s demise leaves a reasonable hole in MAN’s portfolio that VS have expressed a desire to fill.

Irrespective of whether BA do anything, it seems likely that over the next 3-5 years the MAN as a hub hypothesis may be put to the test.


Why would BA fly to it's partner hubs from MAN when AA, IB & AY already fill that role? Each could easily add capacity without the need for BA.

If we're talking about BA to JFK, LAX, DFW, ORD etc then it is similar to LHR destination type wise... The aircraft used are premium heavy, connections only play a small part compared to the revenue from the front cabins. MAN does not have the premium demand to fill these aircraft, neither will BA rely on going for the lower end of the market as it's doesn't fit their current corporate strategy. TCX left a hole yes, but the fares in peak season across the Atlantic were dirt cheap and insanely cheap out of season so i believe the market is limited growth wise, especially for those paying a premium.

And in terms of feed for these routes to make it a Hub regardless of which airline, where isn't already on lock from EZY, FR, European LCCs and Legacies? The lower end of the market is near saturated and already very price sensitive, and the european premium markets are already well catered for with a plethora of airlines. I would love to see a MAN hub happen, but I cannot see where the market is.
 
bhxalex
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:01 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
bhxalex wrote:
MAN does not have the premium traffic to support a BA hub with destinations similar to LHR. The competition to bucket and spade destinations is fierce currently and BA could not compete on costs against EZY or FR. The airport is full at peak times, so logistically it wouldn't be possible without an existing airline with a base closing their operation to make way.

MAN is extremely well served with direct and one stop options imo.


I don’t think anyone is comparing the opportunity BA might have at MAN to its existing LHR operation (except you). The type of operation I believe most have in mind is akin to the VS operation, with BA flying to its US partner’s hubs (eg JFK, ORD, DFW, LAX). The issue BA have (and have always had) that VS do not have is the presence of the hub at LHR and their desire to route passengers from MAN over LHR - which has undermined direct BA services from MAN in the past.

As has been observed elsewhere, thomas cook’s demise leaves a reasonable hole in MAN’s portfolio that VS have expressed a desire to fill.

Irrespective of whether BA do anything, it seems likely that over the next 3-5 years the MAN as a hub hypothesis may be put to the test.


Why would BA fly to it's partner hubs from MAN when AA, IB & AY already fill that role? Each could easily add capacity without the need for BA.

If we're talking about BA to JFK, LAX, DFW, ORD etc then it is similar to LHR destination type wise... The aircraft used are premium heavy, connections only play a small part compared to the revenue from the front cabins. MAN does not have the premium demand to fill these aircraft, neither will BA rely on going for the lower end of the market as it's doesn't fit their current corporate strategy. TCX left a hole yes, but the fares in peak season across the Atlantic were dirt cheap and insanely cheap out of season so i believe the market is limited growth wise, especially for those paying a premium. Put simply the issue BA has with MAN is the lack of premium demand compared to LHR. Similar to LH BER vs MUC & FRA , AF MRS/LYS vs PAR and IB BCN vs MAD. At best a Level style operation might be feasible to a few select markets.


And in terms of feed for these routes to make it a Hub regardless of which airline, where isn't already on lock from EZY, FR, European LCCs and Legacies? The lower end of the market is near saturated and already very price sensitive, and the european premium markets are already well catered for with a plethora of airlines. I would love to see a MAN hub happen, but I cannot see where the market is.
 
Ryanair01
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:27 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:23 am

If you look at measures of global integration, London generally rates as the world's second most globally linked city. Manchester, by whatever measure, doesn't even make the lists of globally integrated cities (see below).

For a global airline, it makes more sense to invest in a city that has exceptionally strong global links (i.e. London), not one with low moderate links (Manchester). That is particularly re-inforced in the case of BA, because they have so many slots at Heathrow.

Measures:

Top 60 competitive cities (Economist):
London is 2nd
Manchester isn't on the list

Schroders Global Cities:
London is 2nd
Manchester isn't on the list

Globalisation and World Cities:
Alpha ++ "cities most integrated with the global economy"
London and New York are the only two cities in this classification.
Manchester is six categories down, a Beta -

Virgin has built a decent business out of Manchester. I can tell you, but can't demonstrate it or explain how I know, that the Virgin brand generally allows a significant price premium over BA or TUI for "premium leisure" customers. Think the Cheshire set. Virgin's comparatively weak slot position at Heathrow has seen them look elsewhere to expand. It's also worth noting that BA is now extremely profitable, but Virgin barely survives.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:35 am

bhxalex wrote:
Why would BA fly to it's partner hubs from MAN when AA, IB & AY already fill that role? Each could easily add capacity without the need for BA.

If we're talking about BA to JFK, LAX, DFW, ORD etc then it is similar to LHR destination type wise... The aircraft used are premium heavy, connections only play a small part compared to the revenue from the front cabins. MAN does not have the premium demand to fill these aircraft


As to the first point, if looked solely through the prism of IAG that is a valid point.

However, VS are in the process of building out a major operation at MAN where consumer preference is likely to mean even more passengers switching from indirect BA/IB et al to direct VS/DL/AF/KL services. The question is whether BA can live with that - and there is a debate to be had there.

As to the second point, VS flies from MAN to DL’s hubs, in the same way as it is proposed that BA could service JFK, ORD, LAX, DFW from MAN. Prior to VS’s B789 related fleet crisis they flew to JFK, ATL, SFO and BOS from
MAN with the A333 which carries more premium passengers than theLHR based B789. That is before you consider the significant number of premium seats sold by the various Asian and Middle Eastern (And American) carriers at MAN.

I don’t think there is any reasonable basis to say there is no premium demand. MAN is clearly not LHR, and there is a debate to be had on whether it could support VS and BA but that may be played out over the coming years.

Of course, BA has the LHR hub and has historically routed passengers from MAN via LHR to the detriment of its direct MAN services and that likely remains an issue to them starting a realistic operation at MAN. My view is that any move by BA at this stage would fall under the category of seeking to prevent VS’s unchecked expansion as opposed to anything else.
 
Lentini2001
Posts: 260
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:53 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:19 pm

DLHAM wrote:
I remember in the early 2000s BA flew MAN-JFK 1 daily with 767s.


They did BHX-JFK too.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:58 pm

bravotango75 wrote:
simonriat wrote:
Because BA think people only live in the South.

And that the north is just wilderness.

Spot On!


No, they just serve destinations via their partner American or send you via Heathrow.
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

Brexit - It’s time for global Britain.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:03 pm

mark1484 wrote:
Cunard wrote:
deed30 wrote:
BA did serve MCO from MAN in the late 80s early 90s using B747s originating at LGW. I seem to recall it was only once or twice a week and was only for a season or two. I also can remember the same for Batbados and Hong Kong both via LGW at around the same time.


British Airways have previously operated to the following long haul destinations from Manchester although not all of them at the same time. Some of these flights were direct or were an extension of the LGW flights, with those flights originating from LGW. Some of the destination's were inherited from the BOAC days that went via PIK such as Montreal, Toronto.

British Airways Cargo also used MAN with scheduled flights several times a week that went via PIK to New York JFK with a B707C.

British Airways have used a variety of jet aircraft over the years on intercontinental flying from MAN including the B707, B741, B742, B744, B767, DC10, L1011, VC10.

Long haul destinations previously flown by British Airways from MAN include the following...

Barbados
Delhi
Dubai
Hong Kong
Los Angeles
Islamabad
Montreal
New York
Orlando
Toronto

British Airways at one time had quite a large domestic and European network from MAN.

As others have rightly pointed out, when the current Terminal 3 was completed at MAN it was originally built for British Airways with expansion in mind.

Circumstances have changed a lot since those days and MAN is now well served by the likes of Easyjet, Virgin Atlantic, the European mainline airline's, Emirates and all of the other numerous long haul airline's currently serving the airport.

Long and Mid haul airline's currently serving MAN other than Virgin Atlantic include the following....

North America

Air Canada Rouge
Air Transat
American Airlines
Delta
United

Africa

Air Arabia Maroc
Ethiopian Airlines
Royal Air Maroc

Asia

Bangladesh Biman (begins 04 January 2020)
Cathay Pacific
El Al
Emirates
Ethiad
Hainan Airlines
Iraqi Airways
Oman Air
Pakistan International
Pegasus Airlines
Qatar Airways
Saudia
Singapore Airlines
Turkish Airlines

Long/Mid haul international airline's that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Air Canada (mainline)
Air Florida
Air India
Air Jamaica
Air Mauritius
Air Seychelles
BWIA British West Indies Airlines
Canada 3000
Canadian Airlines
Continental Airlines
Cubana
EgyptAir
Gulf Air
Jet Airways
Lybian Airlines
Mahan Air
Malaysian Airlines
Qantas
Shaheen Air
South African Airways
Syrian Air
Turkmenistan Airlines
US Airways
Uzbekistan Airlines
Wardair

European mainline carriers are well represented at MAN with the following airline's...

Aer Lingus
Air France
Air Malta
Austrian Airlines
Brussels Airlines
Finnair
Iberia Express
Icelandair
KLM
Lufthansa
SAS Scandinavian
Swiss
TAP Air Portugal

European mainline carriers that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Adria Airlines
Air Baltic
Air Serbia
Alitalia
Croatian Airlines
CSA Czheck Airlines
Cyprus Airways
Estonian Air
Iberia
JAT Yugoslav Airlines
LOT Polish Airlines
Luxair
Malev Hungarian Airlines
Sabena
Swissair

If British Airways rentered the MAN market they would be under stiff competition from the current airline's with the obvious destinations within Europe such as Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Dublin, Frankfurt, Munich, Paris, etc already well served. The same could be said for the obvious long haul destinations such as Barbados, Dubai, Hong Kong, New York, Orlando, Toronto.

British Airways are best served via it's hub at LHR and to a lesser extent LGW although MAN no longer has a connection to London's second airport.

British Airways concentrating their hub operations in London is no different to what Air France do with Paris. In today's aviation environment and the fact that MAN is well served by it's current airline portfolio and a growing one at that it's safe to say that British Airways are doing the right thing. It's far too late for British Airways to re-enter the MAN market to make any impact be it European or long haul as the current airline's have it covered. British Airways would have to start from scratch if they ever contemplated operations from Manchester again.

As it stands the MAN to LHR route covers any flight connections onto the wider British Airways route network but judging by the growth at MAN over the last few years especially by the long haul airline's it''s fairly obvious that the ''majority'' of the local catchment area are flying direct from MAN with the current airline's rather than using British Airways via LHR.

Only British Airways know the exact figures and data for those traveling from Manchester to LHR and LGW for onward flights and I'm sure that if British Airways thought it was viable enough to re-enter the MAN market they would have announced something by now.

But in saying all of that I would personally love to see British Airways return to MAN with a comprehensive European and long haul network and along with their flight to LHR reopening a connection to LGW again. But at the present time and even including outstanding orders British Airways don't currently have any available aircraft to reopen a base at MAN.

Perhaps once LGW eventually recieves the B737 MAX in a few years time British Airways might consider extending the leases and moving some of the current LGW fleet to MAN including some high density B777's transferred from LHR instead of moving them to LGW. British Airways could always rethink their disposals of existing LHR short haul aircraft and transfer them to a possible MAN base. That would coincide nicely with the completion of the Terminal 2 redevelopment at MAN and possibly free up space at Terminal 3 for an expansion by British Airways and it's Oneworld partners.

I'm hopeful though that once Manchester Airport is fully redeveloped and that includes the demolition of Terminal 1 and a possible expansion of Terminal 3 British Airways will be more of a player at the airport other than it's current flights to LHR and the weekend BACF flights!

I've not touched on Birmingham, Edinburgh or Glasgow as I was clearly concentrating on Manchester.


You forgot the Aeroflot Sunday service!


Yes you are correct that I missed Aeroflot from the list.

Aeroflot operated a weekly service on a Sunday between SVO Moscow Sheremetyevo and MAN during the late 1980's with a TU-154.

SU249 SVO 08.10 MAN 09.00
SU250 MAN 11.05 SVO 17.40

Considering that my list was very comprehensive I was bound to miss out at least one airline!

It's always surprised me that Aeroflot out of all the airline's that previously served MAN have never returned on a scheduled basis.
Last edited by Cunard on Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:14 pm

Lentini2001 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
I remember in the early 2000s BA flew MAN-JFK 1 daily with 767s.


They did BHX-JFK too.


Your stating something that I'm sure everything on this thread is already totally aware of.

If your going to add something to this discussion rather than just typing one sentence perhaps you could have also added that British Airways previously flew GLA to BOS and JFK and for a limited time EWR along with their BHX flights.

Going back further to the sixties upto the early eighties British Airways and before that BOAC also operated.

BHX-JFK
PIK-JFK
PIK-YUL
PIK-YYZ
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
GBNWB
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:56 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:26 pm

My understanding is that the BA1503 was pulled for two reasons. Firstly that they had sold BACX and so the cabin crew had to come from LHR and that increased the costs due to hotels at MAN. Secondly G-YMMM had crashed so an airframe was needed for Calgary.

How true that is I am not sure.
 
SueD
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:35 pm

Cunard wrote:
mark1484 wrote:
Cunard wrote:

British Airways have previously operated to the following long haul destinations from Manchester although not all of them at the same time. Some of these flights were direct or were an extension of the LGW flights, with those flights originating from LGW. Some of the destination's were inherited from the BOAC days that went via PIK such as Montreal, Toronto.

British Airways Cargo also used MAN with scheduled flights several times a week that went via PIK to New York JFK with a B707C.

British Airways have used a variety of jet aircraft over the years on intercontinental flying from MAN including the B707, B741, B742, B744, B767, DC10, L1011, VC10.

Long haul destinations previously flown by British Airways from MAN include the following...

Barbados
Delhi
Dubai
Hong Kong
Los Angeles
Islamabad
Montreal
New York
Orlando
Toronto

British Airways at one time had quite a large domestic and European network from MAN.

As others have rightly pointed out, when the current Terminal 3 was completed at MAN it was originally built for British Airways with expansion in mind.

Circumstances have changed a lot since those days and MAN is now well served by the likes of Easyjet, Virgin Atlantic, the European mainline airline's, Emirates and all of the other numerous long haul airline's currently serving the airport.

Long and Mid haul airline's currently serving MAN other than Virgin Atlantic include the following....

North America

Air Canada Rouge
Air Transat
American Airlines
Delta
United

Africa

Air Arabia Maroc
Ethiopian Airlines
Royal Air Maroc

Asia

Bangladesh Biman (begins 04 January 2020)
Cathay Pacific
El Al
Emirates
Ethiad
Hainan Airlines
Iraqi Airways
Oman Air
Pakistan International
Pegasus Airlines
Qatar Airways
Saudia
Singapore Airlines
Turkish Airlines

Long/Mid haul international airline's that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Air Canada (mainline)
Air Florida
Air India
Air Jamaica
Air Mauritius
Air Seychelles
BWIA British West Indies Airlines
Canada 3000
Canadian Airlines
Continental Airlines
Cubana
EgyptAir
Gulf Air
Jet Airways
Lybian Airlines
Mahan Air
Malaysian Airlines
Qantas
Shaheen Air
South African Airways
Syrian Air
Turkmenistan Airlines
US Airways
Uzbekistan Airlines
Wardair

European mainline carriers are well represented at MAN with the following airline's...

Aer Lingus
Air France
Air Malta
Austrian Airlines
Brussels Airlines
Finnair
Iberia Express
Icelandair
KLM
Lufthansa
SAS Scandinavian
Swiss
TAP Air Portugal

European mainline carriers that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Adria Airlines
Air Baltic
Air Serbia
Alitalia
Croatian Airlines
CSA Czheck Airlines
Cyprus Airways
Estonian Airways
Iberia
JAT Yugoslav Airlines
LOT Polish Airlines
Luxair
Malev Hungarian Airlines
Sabena
Swissair

If British Airways rentered the MAN market they would be under stiff competition from the current airline's with the obvious destinations within Europe such as Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Dublin, Frankfurt, Munich, Paris, etc already well served. The same could be said for the obvious long haul destinations such as Barbados, Dubai, Hong Kong, New York, Orlando, Toronto.

British Airways are best served via it's hub at LHR and to a lesser extent LGW although MAN no longer has a connection to London's second airport.

British Airways concentrating their hub operations in London is no different to what Air France do with Paris. In today's aviation environment and the fact that MAN is well served by it's current airline portfolio and a growing one at that it's safe to say that British Airways are doing the right thing. It's far too late for British Airways to re-enter the MAN market to make any impact be it European or long haul as the current airline's have it covered. British Airways would have to start from scratch if they ever contemplated operations from Manchester again.

As it stands the MAN to LHR route covers any flight connections onto the wider British Airways route network but judging by the growth at MAN over the last few years especially by the long haul airline's it''s fairly obvious that the ''majority'' of the local catchment area are flying direct from MAN with the current airline's rather than using British Airways via LHR.

Only British Airways know the exact figures and data for those traveling from Manchester to LHR and LGW for onward flights and I'm sure that if British Airways thought it was viable enough to re-enter the MAN market they would have announced something by now.

But in saying all of that I would personally love to see British Airways return to MAN with a comprehensive European and long haul network and along with their flight to LHR reopening a connection to LGW again. But at the present time and even including outstanding orders British Airways don't currently have any available aircraft to reopen a base at MAN.

Perhaps once LGW eventually recieves the B737 MAX in a few years time British Airways might consider extending the leases and moving some of the current LGW fleet to MAN including some high density B777's transferred from LHR instead of moving them to LGW. British Airways could always rethink their disposals of existing LHR short haul aircraft and transfer them to a possible MAN base. That would coincide nicely with the completion of the Terminal 2 redevelopment at MAN and possibly free up space at Terminal 3 for an expansion by British Airways and it's Oneworld partners.

I'm hopeful though that once Manchester Airport is fully redeveloped and that includes the demolition of Terminal 1 and a possible expansion of Terminal 3 British Airways will be more of a player at the airport other than it's current flights to LHR and the weekend BACF flights!

I've not touched on Birmingham, Edinburgh or Glasgow as I was clearly concentrating on Manchester.


You forgot the Aeroflot Sunday service!


Yes you are correct that I missed Aeroflot from the list.

Aeroflot operated a weekly service on a Sunday between SVO Moscow Sheremetyevo and MAN during the late 1980's with a TU-154.

SU249 SVO 08.10 MAN 09.00
SU250 MAN 11.05 SVO 17.40


Plus occasional Fridays also used Tu134 and IL62M aircraft

You can also add Tarom with the Rombac 1-11-500 to Bucharest and Ukraine Air International with the 737NG models to to list of former operators

Just about every EU and EFTA national carrier has operated schedules and majority continue to do.

Oh add long long long ago the VC10 Manchester -Pwk- JFK route went all the way to Georgetown Guyana !
 
mark1484
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:57 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:00 pm

Cunard wrote:
mark1484 wrote:
Cunard wrote:

British Airways have previously operated to the following long haul destinations from Manchester although not all of them at the same time. Some of these flights were direct or were an extension of the LGW flights, with those flights originating from LGW. Some of the destination's were inherited from the BOAC days that went via PIK such as Montreal, Toronto.

British Airways Cargo also used MAN with scheduled flights several times a week that went via PIK to New York JFK with a B707C.

British Airways have used a variety of jet aircraft over the years on intercontinental flying from MAN including the B707, B741, B742, B744, B767, DC10, L1011, VC10.

Long haul destinations previously flown by British Airways from MAN include the following...

Barbados
Delhi
Dubai
Hong Kong
Los Angeles
Islamabad
Montreal
New York
Orlando
Toronto

British Airways at one time had quite a large domestic and European network from MAN.

As others have rightly pointed out, when the current Terminal 3 was completed at MAN it was originally built for British Airways with expansion in mind.

Circumstances have changed a lot since those days and MAN is now well served by the likes of Easyjet, Virgin Atlantic, the European mainline airline's, Emirates and all of the other numerous long haul airline's currently serving the airport.

Long and Mid haul airline's currently serving MAN other than Virgin Atlantic include the following....

North America

Air Canada Rouge
Air Transat
American Airlines
Delta
United

Africa

Air Arabia Maroc
Ethiopian Airlines
Royal Air Maroc

Asia

Bangladesh Biman (begins 04 January 2020)
Cathay Pacific
El Al
Emirates
Ethiad
Hainan Airlines
Iraqi Airways
Oman Air
Pakistan International
Pegasus Airlines
Qatar Airways
Saudia
Singapore Airlines
Turkish Airlines

Long/Mid haul international airline's that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Air Canada (mainline)
Air Florida
Air India
Air Jamaica
Air Mauritius
Air Seychelles
BWIA British West Indies Airlines
Canada 3000
Canadian Airlines
Continental Airlines
Cubana
EgyptAir
Gulf Air
Jet Airways
Lybian Airlines
Mahan Air
Malaysian Airlines
Qantas
Shaheen Air
South African Airways
Syrian Air
Turkmenistan Airlines
US Airways
Uzbekistan Airlines
Wardair

European mainline carriers are well represented at MAN with the following airline's...

Aer Lingus
Air France
Air Malta
Austrian Airlines
Brussels Airlines
Finnair
Iberia Express
Icelandair
KLM
Lufthansa
SAS Scandinavian
Swiss
TAP Air Portugal

European mainline carriers that previously operated scheduled flights from MAN include the following...

Adria Airlines
Air Baltic
Air Serbia
Alitalia
Croatian Airlines
CSA Czheck Airlines
Cyprus Airways
Estonian Air
Iberia
JAT Yugoslav Airlines
LOT Polish Airlines
Luxair
Malev Hungarian Airlines
Sabena
Swissair

If British Airways rentered the MAN market they would be under stiff competition from the current airline's with the obvious destinations within Europe such as Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Dublin, Frankfurt, Munich, Paris, etc already well served. The same could be said for the obvious long haul destinations such as Barbados, Dubai, Hong Kong, New York, Orlando, Toronto.

British Airways are best served via it's hub at LHR and to a lesser extent LGW although MAN no longer has a connection to London's second airport.

British Airways concentrating their hub operations in London is no different to what Air France do with Paris. In today's aviation environment and the fact that MAN is well served by it's current airline portfolio and a growing one at that it's safe to say that British Airways are doing the right thing. It's far too late for British Airways to re-enter the MAN market to make any impact be it European or long haul as the current airline's have it covered. British Airways would have to start from scratch if they ever contemplated operations from Manchester again.

As it stands the MAN to LHR route covers any flight connections onto the wider British Airways route network but judging by the growth at MAN over the last few years especially by the long haul airline's it''s fairly obvious that the ''majority'' of the local catchment area are flying direct from MAN with the current airline's rather than using British Airways via LHR.

Only British Airways know the exact figures and data for those traveling from Manchester to LHR and LGW for onward flights and I'm sure that if British Airways thought it was viable enough to re-enter the MAN market they would have announced something by now.

But in saying all of that I would personally love to see British Airways return to MAN with a comprehensive European and long haul network and along with their flight to LHR reopening a connection to LGW again. But at the present time and even including outstanding orders British Airways don't currently have any available aircraft to reopen a base at MAN.

Perhaps once LGW eventually recieves the B737 MAX in a few years time British Airways might consider extending the leases and moving some of the current LGW fleet to MAN including some high density B777's transferred from LHR instead of moving them to LGW. British Airways could always rethink their disposals of existing LHR short haul aircraft and transfer them to a possible MAN base. That would coincide nicely with the completion of the Terminal 2 redevelopment at MAN and possibly free up space at Terminal 3 for an expansion by British Airways and it's Oneworld partners.

I'm hopeful though that once Manchester Airport is fully redeveloped and that includes the demolition of Terminal 1 and a possible expansion of Terminal 3 British Airways will be more of a player at the airport other than it's current flights to LHR and the weekend BACF flights!

I've not touched on Birmingham, Edinburgh or Glasgow as I was clearly concentrating on Manchester.


You forgot the Aeroflot Sunday service!


Yes you are correct that I missed Aeroflot from the list.

Aeroflot operated a weekly service on a Sunday between SVO Moscow Sheremetyevo and MAN during the late 1980's with a TU-154.

SU249 SVO 08.10 MAN 09.00
SU250 MAN 11.05 SVO 17.40

Considering that my list was very comprehensive I was bound to miss out at least one airline!

It's always surprised me that Aeroflot out of all the airline's that previously served MAN have never returned on a scheduled basis.


Thank you for the detailed information.

I agree it’s surprising that Aeroflot haven’t returned to Manchester, especially with their sponsorship of Manchester United in recent years.
Pobeda would be a possible in the future but the Russian visa requirements would surely put people off although there is a Russian visa application centre in Manchester now.
 
Turnhouse1
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:32 pm

David_itl wrote:
So you mean like Thomas Cook and their 24 slot pairs?

the problem would always be not trusting BA to actually serve MAN/the regions properly. Remember they preferred passengers to go MAN-LHR-elsewhere rather than non-stop MAN-elsewhere.

Astounding to think they wilfullly cede the market to DL/VS.


That leaves an interesting possibility for Virgin (though their Virgin Holidays brand) to get hold of some of the TCX A321s and slots and set up Virgin Holidays in the Med, they're more long haul focused at the moment. They could probably take the Air Tanker A330s and add some TATL capacity as well, there are a few TCX sub charters to Cruise Lines etc which will need operating by someone.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1348
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:34 pm

They're nicknamed London Airways for a reason.

Michael
 
marcogr12
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:38 pm

I dont know why you all keep insisting that there s no premium market in MAN while at the same airlines the likes of EK,EY,CX,SIA,AA,DL,UA fly there and they would have not kept flying were the market just leisure and price sensitive...It might be the case for the shorthaul market but i dont see that for longhaul..VS must be doing sth right to keep building on it instead of abandoning it and focusing solely on the London market like BA did...Besides, even if MAN is not on par with the premium heavy LHR,it certainly is a match for LGW where both BA and VS keep a longhaul network too..And do we have the chicken or the egg first...? Did BA abandon MAN and then the market grew with the advent of more longhaul airlines or did the market grew diluting profits for BA forcing it to abandon MAN? I too have doubts now how loyal the pax of MAN would be to BA if it were to come back and start over...Too little too late...
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Mullion
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:02 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:32 pm

Two Air Tanker A330 are on lease to Jet2 with I have heard the 3rd one next summer all the others are commited to RAF work also rumours that some of the TCX ones will head off to Jet2
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:34 am

Why would BA return to MAN for (those "somewhat premium") markets like MAN-JFK, MAN-BOS, MAN-ORD, MAN-MIA, MAN-DFW (AA hubs) when it could get AA to fly those routes instead of BA?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
tallis
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 10:02 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:27 am

eamondzhang wrote:
They're nicknamed London Airways for a reason.


... by literally no-one outside the very narrow confines of airliners.net
 
jubaexpress
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:17 am

mark1484 wrote:
Cunard wrote:
mark1484 wrote:

You forgot the Aeroflot Sunday service!


Yes you are correct that I missed Aeroflot from the list.

Aeroflot operated a weekly service on a Sunday between SVO Moscow Sheremetyevo and MAN during the late 1980's with a TU-154.

SU249 SVO 08.10 MAN 09.00
SU250 MAN 11.05 SVO 17.40

Considering that my list was very comprehensive I was bound to miss out at least one airline!

It's always surprised me that Aeroflot out of all the airline's that previously served MAN have never returned on a scheduled basis.


Thank you for the detailed information.

I agree it’s surprising that Aeroflot haven’t returned to Manchester, especially with their sponsorship of Manchester United in recent years.
Pobeda would be a possible in the future but the Russian visa requirements would surely put people off although there is a Russian visa application centre in Manchester now.


EasyJet tried it but it wasn't a success. Not just visa requirements but sanctions and the tanking of the rouble meant traffic was limited. Would be interesting to see how the visa free policy for St Petersburg changes demand.
 
iberiadc852
Topic Author
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:23 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:47 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
Why would BA return to MAN for (those "somewhat premium") markets like MAN-JFK, MAN-BOS, MAN-ORD, MAN-MIA, MAN-DFW (AA hubs) when it could get AA to fly those routes instead of BA?


Or why would British Airways think british citizens would fly American Airlines some of those routes if they can fly another british airline like Virgin? What's so good about BAW, despite not serving their own country, that those people would prefer to fly their foreign partners instead?

And why would AA serve all the flights they have to LHR if their partner BA serves almost every half important american city from there?
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
bhxalex
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:20 am

iberiadc852 wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
Why would BA return to MAN for (those "somewhat premium") markets like MAN-JFK, MAN-BOS, MAN-ORD, MAN-MIA, MAN-DFW (AA hubs) when it could get AA to fly those routes instead of BA?


Or why would British Airways think british citizens would fly American Airlines some of those routes if they can fly another british airline like Virgin? What's so good about BAW, despite not serving their own country, that those people would prefer to fly their foreign partners instead?

And why would AA serve all the flights they have to LHR if their partner BA serves almost every half important american city from there?


It would be easier for AA to add and adjust capacity at MAN compared to BA. AA operating these flights means BA doesn't need to set up a costly base at MAN for a few flights across the pond, not to mention BA has no room for growth at the moment aircraft wise, with incoming aircraft solely replacing the outgoing ones, whereas AA are in the process of receiving more aircraft optimally suited to these routes (788 & 789).
 
David_itl
Posts: 6365
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:32 am

bhxalex wrote:
[BA doesn't need to set up a costly base at MAN for a few flights across the pond,.



The only problem with that argument is why does VS have a base at MAN, presumably just as costly as a BA one would be, with 2 types of aircraft (744 and A330) for no more than 6 flights a day and STILL manages to decide to ramp up capacity and frequency? Remember why DL passed their services over to VS..... the better brand nam in the UK market. Hence, it would be better for BA to operate such routes. That people would have to forget the abysmal efforts of BA in the latter years of their operation is something they'd have to deal with.
 
bhxalex
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:13 am

David_itl wrote:
bhxalex wrote:
[BA doesn't need to set up a costly base at MAN for a few flights across the pond,.



The only problem with that argument is why does VS have a base at MAN, presumably just as costly as a BA one would be, with 2 types of aircraft (744 and A330) for no more than 6 flights a day and STILL manages to decide to ramp up capacity and frequency? Remember why DL passed their services over to VS..... the better brand nam in the UK market. Hence, it would be better for BA to operate such routes. That people would have to forget the abysmal efforts of BA in the latter years of their operation is something they'd have to deal with.


VS have continually had an operation at MAN for a long time, it's not a new base. They have served holiday destinations through Virgin holidays (MCO, LAS & BGI currently, others too historically before taking over the DL routes) so the addition of the former DL routes and a few extra cities was quite easy to do and they don't have all their eggs in one basket market wise, whereas BA would.

The opportunity cost of deploying widebody aircraft at MAN vs using it LHR, where they can fill the front cabins consistently means it's very unlikely to happen. It's likely any non-LHR expansion will be at LGW with more converted HD 772s to the Caribbean and North America.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1188
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:59 am

If you ask me, BA have basically ceded the MAN market now to a point where they would be reentering a competitive marketplace. I'm not going to argue the point that London is undoubtedly a goldmine, but the argument about a lack of premium passengers ex-MAN is something I don't buy into when other airlines offer premium services (e.g. Emirates) and it's working.

GBNWB wrote:
My understanding is that the BA1503 was pulled for two reasons. Firstly that they had sold BACX and so the cabin crew had to come from LHR and that increased the costs due to hotels at MAN. Secondly G-YMMM had crashed so an airframe was needed for Calgary.

How true that is I am not sure.


I think MAN was the only 767 route BA operated into JFK if I'm not mistaken? Could they not have shuttled down back to LHR straight after landing at MAN or would that count as duty time that would be exceeded? Similarly with the outbound trip?

2travel2know2 wrote:
Why would BA return to MAN for (those "somewhat premium") markets like MAN-JFK, MAN-BOS, MAN-ORD, MAN-MIA, MAN-DFW (AA hubs) when it could get AA to fly those routes instead of BA?


We have already been there with AA operating out of MAN, particularly in place of BA...

JFK - AA took it over after BA pulled their own metal from the route, operated for several years using 757's and 767's and pulled a year or so ago. Put the O&D market aside and AA's JFK hub has been shrinking lately
BOS - Tried for one season before being pulled - since then VS took over the route seasonally and next summer will see DL operate the route daily
ORD - Was once one of their top three most profitable TATL routes, but in recent years has been undermined with poor punctuality (remember the first time AA sent 787's on that route) and the Y product on the 757/767's was inferior to its competitors. The route was finally pulled not long ago
MIA - Tried for one winter season about 15 years ago and hasn't returned. Thomas Cook operated it for a few years before pulling it. Both of these would suggest MAN-MIA isn't worthwhile sadly
DFW - I'm sure that route came and went back in the 1990's

David_itl wrote:
bhxalex wrote:
[BA doesn't need to set up a costly base at MAN for a few flights across the pond,.


The only problem with that argument is why does VS have a base at MAN, presumably just as costly as a BA one would be, with 2 types of aircraft (744 and A330) for no more than 6 flights a day and STILL manages to decide to ramp up capacity and frequency? Remember why DL passed their services over to VS..... the better brand nam in the UK market. Hence, it would be better for BA to operate such routes. That people would have to forget the abysmal efforts of BA in the latter years of their operation is something they'd have to deal with.


Don't forget the VS Clubhouse that's recently confirmed as opening next spring after months/years of speculation that one was on the way.
 
bhxalex
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:50 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
If you ask me, BA have basically ceded the MAN market now to a point where they would be reentering a competitive marketplace. I'm not going to argue the point that London is undoubtedly a goldmine, but the argument about a lack of premium passengers ex-MAN is something I don't buy into when other airlines offer premium services (e.g. Emirates) and it's working.



Premium demand must be why AA have been using knackered 767s with no seatback screens and outdated interior to PHL, why VS are using high density 747s and 332s, and why UA haven't announced Polaris service. If premium Tatl demand existed from MAN then perhaps the product offering would be superior than it is now. Sure there's premium demand from MAN to certain destinations but there's little evidence to suggest many of those are across the pond.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1188
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:29 pm

bhxalex wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
If you ask me, BA have basically ceded the MAN market now to a point where they would be reentering a competitive marketplace. I'm not going to argue the point that London is undoubtedly a goldmine, but the argument about a lack of premium passengers ex-MAN is something I don't buy into when other airlines offer premium services (e.g. Emirates) and it's working.



Premium demand must be why AA have been using knackered 767s with no seatback screens and outdated interior to PHL, why VS are using high density 747s and 332s, and why UA haven't announced Polaris service. If premium Tatl demand existed from MAN then perhaps the product offering would be superior than it is now. Sure there's premium demand from MAN to certain destinations but there's little evidence to suggest many of those are across the pond.


I'm talking about premium demand overall, not TATL specifically - hence why I singled out EK in particular. To respond to your points...

Using 767's MAN-PHL - My understanding is that the Business Class cabins were refitted a few years ago on the 767's (MAN-JFK was ironically one of the first routes to get them) and the dated cabin issue is in Economy. Additionally, MAN is one of three routes that swapped to the 767 for this year (the others being AMS and ZRH), and MAN-PHL is going over to the 787 in January, so the use of 767's is a moot point as it's not going to be happening for much longer. I'd also hazard a guess that the use of the 767 (and 757) with their cabins combined with poor performance is one reason that led to AA pulling the plug on the MAN-ORD route.

VS - Some routes are moving back to the A330-300 next year and, as mentioned before, a Clubhouse is coming to MAN. Why would they invest in a lounge if there's no/limited demand? This is before we factor in what will happen next with respect to Flybe.

UA - Pass, but bear in mind this year was the first time since CO days that UA scheduled widebodies on the MAN-EWR route. MAN-EWR was double-daily on the 757 for a number of years before one of the frequencies was swapped for the now-scrapped MAN-IAD route, which before CO/UA was operated by BMI for a few years.
 
jomur
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinies?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:20 am

Mullion wrote:
Two Air Tanker A330 are on lease to Jet2 with I have heard the 3rd one next summer all the others are commited to RAF work also rumours that some of the TCX ones will head off to Jet2


and I wonder where they will flying to?...…. Also not also at Man but other bases.
 
bluefrog
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:22 am

Re: Why does MAN get so few BAW international flights and destinations?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:50 pm

@ cunard excellent reply for MAN but i didn't see you mention Tarom, as a kid (up to 15/16 years old )back in the late 70's ?early 80's i saw Tarom aircraft at MAN ,TU 154? sorry i know you put in a lot of work finding the airlines that served my old home city ,just another one to add,
PS i used to love when fog hit london ,braniiff &,Pam Am 747 sp were my favs i remember one day different aircraft parked all over the place there was so many and not enough gates

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