Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5095
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:06 am

Back when Daimler bought into Chrysler the DTW-FRA route went from 2 to 4 daily and there was a PTK-STR flight that operated 3 times weekly. Now that Fiat has control over Chrysler why don't we see at the very least a DTW-MXP year round link to carry that cooperate traffic. There has to be a decent amount of premium traffic between Detroit and the Fiat headquarters in Turin that would rather have a nonstop than a connection in AMS.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
DTWorld
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:34 am

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:12 am

Demographics
 
drdisque
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:12 am

In short: the Italy-US market dies in the off season. Even ORD can't support year-round service.
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5095
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:16 am

drdisque wrote:
In short: the Italy-US market dies in the off season. Even ORD can't support year-round service.



I'm not talking about the leisure traffic I understand that falls off in the winter. I am talking about the Fiat cooperate traffic, that should warrant a link alone.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26252
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:16 am

The market isn’t there. Italy only consistently supports year round to NYC and Miami. Even traditionally Boston and Chicago have struggled to support year-round, although I think AZ might be year-round again to both.
a.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:27 am

klm617 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
In short: the Italy-US market dies in the off season. Even ORD can't support year-round service.



I'm not talking about the leisure traffic I understand that falls off in the winter. I am talking about the Fiat cooperate traffic, that should warrant a link alone.



Contrary to a.net popular belief, one company isn't enough to support a route that otherwise doesn't have much other traffic. Unless said company wants to subsidize it.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2585
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:29 am

klm617 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
In short: the Italy-US market dies in the off season. Even ORD can't support year-round service.



I'm not talking about the leisure traffic I understand that falls off in the winter. I am talking about the Fiat cooperate traffic, that should warrant a link alone.


I'm sure FIAT can arrange their own jets should the need for travel to Detroit arise. No top brass executive is going to slum it on Delta.
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5095
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:31 am

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
klm617 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
In short: the Italy-US market dies in the off season. Even ORD can't support year-round service.



I'm not talking about the leisure traffic I understand that falls off in the winter. I am talking about the Fiat cooperate traffic, that should warrant a link alone.





Contrary to a.net popular belief, one company isn't enough to support a route that otherwise doesn't have much other traffic. Unless said company wants to subsidize it.


But one company was enough to start DUB-MSP on EI so why isn't the Fiat traffic enough to warrant year round Detroit Italy traffic.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2585
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:31 am

MAH4546 wrote:
The market isn’t there. Italy only consistently supports year round to NYC and Miami. Even traditionally Boston and Chicago have struggled to support year-round, although I think AZ might be year-round again to both.


I think ATL maintains FCO year-round.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:32 am

Despite the auto industry ties, Italy-Detroit has always been a problem market.

From 1971 to 1974, Alitalia flew from DTW to MXP and FCO, with stops in BOS or PHL, using DC-8s, 747s, and DC-10s. The flights were suspended after the sharp run up in jet fuel prices due to the Arab energy embargo in late 1973, and the precipitous drop in car sales that followed the rise in oil prices.

After Chrysler bought Maserati in the 1980s, there were rumors that Alitalia would resume passenger flights into DTW, but that never happened.

Alitalia did, however, fly 747-200Fs from Turin to Detroit in the 1980s and 1990s. The flights brought Cadillac Allante bodies from Pinifarina's factory in northern Italy to Cadillac's Poletown factory in Hamtramck. Eastbound flights stopped in FRA on the return from Detroit to Italy; they carried auto parts made in the US and Canada to Opel's factories in Europe.

When Alitalia joined forces with KLM and Northwest, NW began flying DC-10s from Detroit to Italy. Those flights lasted only a couple of years.
 
User avatar
adamh8297
Posts: 3214
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:36 am

MAH4546 wrote:
The market isn’t there. Italy only consistently supports year round to NYC and Miami. Even traditionally Boston and Chicago have struggled to support year-round, although I think AZ might be year-round again to both.


AZ takes a couple months off from BOS typically. For W20 its zero'd out from 1/9/2020 to 3/2/2020. It also goes to 5 weekly Late Fall/Early Winter/Early Spring.
BOS-MAD is the Southern Europe route that has become year round.

If the MXP hub was never dropped and AZ was allowed back in the JV then DTW may have a case. LH also probably pulls some biz traffic to Italy via FRA in DTW.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3625
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:54 am

klm617 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I'm not talking about the leisure traffic I understand that falls off in the winter. I am talking about the Fiat cooperate traffic, that should warrant a link alone.





Contrary to a.net popular belief, one company isn't enough to support a route that otherwise doesn't have much other traffic. Unless said company wants to subsidize it.


But one company was enough to start DUB-MSP on EI so why isn't the Fiat traffic enough to warrant year round Detroit Italy traffic.



Lets see:
DUB cheaper to operate into than MXP.
EI crew are lower wages so addition cost reduction there.
Company involved most likely subsidizing it DUB-MSP. Is it not a pharma company?
And last but not least Fiat has a rep of being frugal on travel cost.
Combined with lack of Interest from Italians.

Should be a good mix of reasons
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 717
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:03 am

klm, all you will get is excuses why not, no one will ever be positive toward dtw on this site. You supply examples like MSP and the corporation there that played a large role in EI service, Fiat is many many times larger, what did you get, negative excuses.

You have persistence mate, I have to take a break from these foolish people from time to time.

on a positive note, I do believe DTWFCO and DTWMUC are both nearing the point they will be yearly. They have matured well, and FCO is upgauged to A333 for April start to 2020 season. MUC becomes A332, both good signs in my book
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:06 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm sure FIAT can arrange their own jets should the need for travel to Detroit arise. No top brass executive is going to slum it on Delta.


Exactly. Top execs are going to fly private. Peons can connect. And by the way, Fiat is not in Milan, it's in Turin which means a 2+ hour car/train trip to get to a nonstop flight. It's probably easier to fly Turin-Detroit with a connection in Frankfurt or Munich.

Regardless, one company like Fiat is not going to be sending hundreds of people from from Turin to Milan to Detroit every single day to fill a widebody jet. And just like these other endless DTW threads, outside of business travel nobody wants to go to Detroit.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2585
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:22 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
klm, all you will get is excuses why not, no one will ever be positive toward dtw on this site. You supply examples like MSP and the corporation there that played a large role in EI service, Fiat is many many times larger, what did you get, negative excuses.

You have persistence mate, I have to take a break from these foolish people from time to time.

on a positive note, I do believe DTWFCO and DTWMUC are both nearing the point they will be yearly. They have matured well, and FCO is upgauged to A333 for April start to 2020 season. MUC becomes A332, both good signs in my book


I'm not really sure that's a positive sign. The 767 has a higher J/Y ratio than the A330. Notice that the 767 is going straight back to LHR routes after coming out of their cabin refits. They tend to be on routes that require more premium demand. An A330 would indicate that J demand is weak to DTW.
 
winginit
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:59 am

klm617 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I'm not talking about the leisure traffic I understand that falls off in the winter. I am talking about the Fiat cooperate traffic, that should warrant a link alone.





Contrary to a.net popular belief, one company isn't enough to support a route that otherwise doesn't have much other traffic. Unless said company wants to subsidize it.


But one company was enough to start DUB-MSP on EI so why isn't the Fiat traffic enough to warrant year round Detroit Italy traffic.


That's a nonsensical statement. Who are you even talking about? You have UnitedHealth, Boston Scientific, Medtronic, US Bank, Ingersoll-Rand, and a host of other corporates who likely in some way support DUB-MSP. To say one corporation justified the route is false. full stop.
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5095
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:24 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
klm, all you will get is excuses why not, no one will ever be positive toward dtw on this site. You supply examples like MSP and the corporation there that played a large role in EI service, Fiat is many many times larger, what did you get, negative excuses.

You have persistence mate, I have to take a break from these foolish people from time to time.

on a positive note, I do believe DTWFCO and DTWMUC are both nearing the point they will be yearly. They have matured well, and FCO is upgauged to A333 for April start to 2020 season. MUC becomes A332, both good signs in my book


I'm not really sure that's a positive sign. The 767 has a higher J/Y ratio than the A330. Notice that the 767 is going straight back to LHR routes after coming out of their cabin refits. They tend to be on routes that require more premium demand. An A330 would indicate that J demand is weak to DTW.


What kind of nonsense is that even though the 767 ratio is higher the number of C seats on the 333 is greater than the 767.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2927
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:44 pm

klm617 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
klm, all you will get is excuses why not, no one will ever be positive toward dtw on this site. You supply examples like MSP and the corporation there that played a large role in EI service, Fiat is many many times larger, what did you get, negative excuses.

You have persistence mate, I have to take a break from these foolish people from time to time.

on a positive note, I do believe DTWFCO and DTWMUC are both nearing the point they will be yearly. They have matured well, and FCO is upgauged to A333 for April start to 2020 season. MUC becomes A332, both good signs in my book


I'm not really sure that's a positive sign. The 767 has a higher J/Y ratio than the A330. Notice that the 767 is going straight back to LHR routes after coming out of their cabin refits. They tend to be on routes that require more premium demand. An A330 would indicate that J demand is weak to DTW.


What kind of nonsense is that even though the 767 ratio is higher the number of C seats on the 333 is greater than the 767.


Didn't Delta use the 764 two or three years ago, which basically has four more seats than the A332?
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5095
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:12 pm

Ishrion wrote:
klm617 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I'm not really sure that's a positive sign. The 767 has a higher J/Y ratio than the A330. Notice that the 767 is going straight back to LHR routes after coming out of their cabin refits. They tend to be on routes that require more premium demand. An A330 would indicate that J demand is weak to DTW.


What kind of nonsense is that even though the 767 ratio is higher the number of C seats on the 333 is greater than the 767.


Didn't Delta use the 764 two or three years ago, which basically has four more seats than the A332?


Maybe one summer but for the last 2 years it's been a 763
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
HP69
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:20 pm

Will DL add DTW to DUB soon?
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5095
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:45 pm

HP69 wrote:
Will DL add DTW to DUB soon?



Hopefully not Detroiter's want Aer Lingus on that route. DTW-MAN is better suited for the next Delta addition out of Detroit (That is if that is even in the realm of possibility)
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:53 pm

klm617 wrote:
HP69 wrote:
Will DL add DTW to DUB soon?



Hopefully not Detroiter's want Aer Lingus on that route. DTW-MAN is better suited for the next Delta addition out of Detroit (That is if that is even in the realm of possibility)


Maybe your average price-sensitive leisure Detroiter's want Aer Lingus, but it would be ridiculous to say that profitable business travelers, the ones who covet miles, benefit from elite status, and pay for flights ona corporate card, would surely prefer DL operate the route.
 
wv399
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:32 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:13 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
The market isn’t there. Italy only consistently supports year round to NYC and Miami. Even traditionally Boston and Chicago have struggled to support year-round, although I think AZ might be year-round again to both.


I think ATL maintains FCO year-round.


You're absolutely right, FCO is year round. MXP is seasonal, but year round at JFK.
 
wv399
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:32 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:19 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
klm617 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
In short: the Italy-US market dies in the off season. Even ORD can't support year-round service.



I'm not talking about the leisure traffic I understand that falls off in the winter. I am talking about the Fiat cooperate traffic, that should warrant a link alone.



Contrary to a.net popular belief, one company isn't enough to support a route that otherwise doesn't have much other traffic. Unless said company wants to subsidize it.


I know it's a different airport, but Delta was able to sustain ATL - STR largely on the strength of Porsche's HQ. It's the only nonstop to the US. Fortunately, they now have both Porsche and Mercedes employees to take that flight.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26252
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:03 pm

wv399 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I'm not talking about the leisure traffic I understand that falls off in the winter. I am talking about the Fiat cooperate traffic, that should warrant a link alone.



Contrary to a.net popular belief, one company isn't enough to support a route that otherwise doesn't have much other traffic. Unless said company wants to subsidize it.


I know it's a different airport, but Delta was able to sustain ATL - STR largely on the strength of Porsche's HQ. It's the only nonstop to the US. Fortunately, they now have both Porsche and Mercedes employees to take that flight.


No. The flight has long been maintained on the strength of German industrial connections to the Southern U.S., generally, and they can fill the back of plane with Miami connections. Porsche in no way, shape or form supports this flight on its own. Never has, never will. And I believe the flight predates Porsche's move to Atlanta. It has operated for 25+ years.
a.
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5095
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:57 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
wv399 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:


Contrary to a.net popular belief, one company isn't enough to support a route that otherwise doesn't have much other traffic. Unless said company wants to subsidize it.


I know it's a different airport, but Delta was able to sustain ATL - STR largely on the strength of Porsche's HQ. It's the only nonstop to the US. Fortunately, they now have both Porsche and Mercedes employees to take that flight.


No. The flight has long been maintained on the strength of German industrial connections to the Southern U.S., generally, and they can fill the back of plane with Miami connections. Porsche in no way, shape or form supports this flight on its own. Never has, never will. And I believe the flight predates Porsche's move to Atlanta. It has operated for 25+ years.


The US military also contributes to this flight as well. More so back in the day than today but it was a huge factor in it's viability.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26252
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Why no Italy year round from Detroit.

Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:17 pm

klm617 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
wv399 wrote:

I know it's a different airport, but Delta was able to sustain ATL - STR largely on the strength of Porsche's HQ. It's the only nonstop to the US. Fortunately, they now have both Porsche and Mercedes employees to take that flight.


No. The flight has long been maintained on the strength of German industrial connections to the Southern U.S., generally, and they can fill the back of plane with Miami connections. Porsche in no way, shape or form supports this flight on its own. Never has, never will. And I believe the flight predates Porsche's move to Atlanta. It has operated for 25+ years.


The US military also contributes to this flight as well. More so back in the day than today but it was a huge factor in it's viability.


Yes, definitely also helps support this.
a.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos