Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
UA857
Topic Author
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:49 pm

Looking at the Range of the 777-8 Should United or Delta order 777-8 to improve range I could potientaly find them as replacements for Delta's 777-200LRs.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4354
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:50 pm

No. The 777-8 is a plane for government subsidised airlines. UA or DL would be far better off with 787-10s.
First to fly the 787-9
 
StTim
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:51 pm

Potentially better and lighter frames available. 777-8 is not sure to be built (as a passenger frame) at this point.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24606
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:11 pm

Both have A350-900 on the books which is an excellent long range plane with high weight variants available.

I don't see the need for anything more than that any time soon.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27231
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:20 pm

UA857 wrote:
Looking at the Range of the 777-8 Should United or Delta order 777-8 to improve range I could potientaly find them as replacements for Delta's 777-200LRs.


UA and DL don't need that payload-range (especially DL, which does not have the 777-300ER like UA). As Revelation noted, both have the A350 on order or in their fleet. The A350-900HGW can handle the 777-200LR replacement role for DL and the A350-1000HGW has enough payload-range for UA's needs.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7366
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:24 pm

The only possible mission Delta could have for a 777-8 is Johannesburg to Atlanta. United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does, their 787-9 & 77W cover their high capacity and almost ultra long haul needs. All United flights to Australia are currently by 787-9.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2071
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:25 pm

jfk777 wrote:
The only possible mission Delta could have for a 777-8 is Johannesburg to Atlanta. United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does, their 787-9 & 77W cover their high capacity and almost ultra long haul needs. All United flights to Australia are currently by 787-9.


SFO-SYD is upgauged to the 77W for the northern hemisphere winter.
 
User avatar
CarlosSi
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:29 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:31 pm

I'd look at some of the most unserved routes for UA or DL which require such range to make that determination.

Perhaps IAH-SIN direct would warrant UA to have one, for example (it's 400 miles longer than EWR-SIN). Unless DL or UA wanted to tap into NYC-SYD as well, there aren't many other routes I could think of. Unless they could get some 5th freedom routes to fly from some of their Star Alliance/SkyTeam hubs (I'm thinking NRT-GRU on UA, in one instance). Just a thought.
 
United1
Posts: 4185
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:37 pm

jfk777 wrote:
The only possible mission Delta could have for a 777-8 is Johannesburg to Atlanta. United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does, their 787-9 & 77W cover their high capacity and almost ultra long haul needs. All United flights to Australia are currently by 787-9.


What route does DL fly that is 8800 miles?

UAs IAH-SYD and SFO-SIN are longer flights than ATL-JNB.

I don't think UA (or for that matter DL) need the 777-8 but curious why you believe is would be a better fit at DL than at UA? Both seem to be sold on the A350 which of course can, at the ULR weight, cover all of the above routes.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1895
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:47 pm

I've never understood why Boeing went so off the map on range and capacity for the 777X. It seems like it would have been a safer bet to simply enhance the 77W. The 350 seat size and ~8,000 nmi range seems to be the sweet spot for most airlines.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27231
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:52 pm

intotheair wrote:
I've never understood why Boeing went so off the map on range and capacity for the 777X. It seems like it would have been a safer bet to simply enhance the 77W. The 350 seat size and ~8,000 nmi range seems to be the sweet spot for most airlines.


In some ways, they had to in order to position the 777X above the A350 in the market. Otherwise the A350's lighter frame would have likely given it too much of an advantage against the 777 even with the 777 adopting similar-generation engines.

In other ways, the largest initial customer for the type - Emirates - wanted a larger frame with equal or better range to minimize the number of seats they need to block on their longest stage lengths.
 
Prost
Posts: 2578
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:55 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
I'd look at some of the most unserved routes for UA or DL which require such range to make that determination.

Perhaps IAH-SIN direct would warrant UA to have one, for example (it's 400 miles longer than EWR-SIN). Unless DL or UA wanted to tap into NYC-SYD as well, there aren't many other routes I could think of. Unless they could get some 5th freedom routes to fly from some of their Star Alliance/SkyTeam hubs (I'm thinking NRT-GRU on UA, in one instance). Just a thought.


UA would never have authority to serve NRT-GRU.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7366
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:59 pm

United1 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The only possible mission Delta could have for a 777-8 is Johannesburg to Atlanta. United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does, their 787-9 & 77W cover their high capacity and almost ultra long haul needs. All United flights to Australia are currently by 787-9.


What route does DL fly that is 8800 miles?

UAs IAH-SYD and SFO-SIN are longer flights than ATL-JNB.

I don't think UA (or for that matter DL) need the 777-8 but curious why you believe is would be a better fit at DL than at UA? Both seem to be sold on the A350 which of course can, at the ULR weight, cover all of the above routes.



Delta's ATL to Johannesburg, its not only the distance but the altitude taking off from J'burg. United's Houston to SYD and SFO to Singapore are all at sea level since those three cities are coastal.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2621
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:05 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
I'd look at some of the most unserved routes for UA or DL which require such range to make that determination.

Perhaps IAH-SIN direct would warrant UA to have one, for example (it's 400 miles longer than EWR-SIN). Unless DL or UA wanted to tap into NYC-SYD as well, there aren't many other routes I could think of. Unless they could get some 5th freedom routes to fly from some of their Star Alliance/SkyTeam hubs (I'm thinking NRT-GRU on UA, in one instance). Just a thought.


Why would UA want to fly NRT-GRU which is almost 11,500 miles, just about 1,000 miles short of being antipodal, as a 5th freedom route? EWR is on the great circle route between NRT and GRU. Adding less than 100 miles to an NRT-EWR-GRU allows an NRT-IAH-GRU routing through UA's IAH hub to Latin America.

Direct does not mean non-stop. It just means that if there is a stop, the trip continues on the same aircraft. SQ already server SIN-IAH directly via MAN. The real question about a non-stop IAH-SIN flight is if there is enough demand between the two cities to justify daily non-stop flights. Any passenger that would need to connect to the IAH end already has lots of connection possibilities to SIN
Last edited by flyingclrs727 on Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
HP69
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:11 pm

UA might need it for a potential EWR/IAD/IAH-JNB flight.
 
United1
Posts: 4185
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:15 pm

jfk777 wrote:
United1 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The only possible mission Delta could have for a 777-8 is Johannesburg to Atlanta. United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does, their 787-9 & 77W cover their high capacity and almost ultra long haul needs. All United flights to Australia are currently by 787-9.


What route does DL fly that is 8800 miles?

UAs IAH-SYD and SFO-SIN are longer flights than ATL-JNB.

I don't think UA (or for that matter DL) need the 777-8 but curious why you believe is would be a better fit at DL than at UA? Both seem to be sold on the A350 which of course can, at the ULR weight, cover all of the above routes.



Delta's ATL to Johannesburg, its not only the distance but the altitude taking off from J'burg. United's Houston to SYD and SFO to Singapore are all at sea level since those three cities are coastal.


Yes altitude is an issue at JNB and why the 77L is used on that route but still doesn't answer the question...what route is 8800 miles?
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
HP69
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:16 pm

United1 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
United1 wrote:

What route does DL fly that is 8800 miles?

UAs IAH-SYD and SFO-SIN are longer flights than ATL-JNB.

I don't think UA (or for that matter DL) need the 777-8 but curious why you believe is would be a better fit at DL than at UA? Both seem to be sold on the A350 which of course can, at the ULR weight, cover all of the above routes.



Delta's ATL to Johannesburg, its not only the distance but the altitude taking off from J'burg. United's Houston to SYD and SFO to Singapore are all at sea level since those three cities are coastal.


Yes altitude is an issue at JNB and why the 77L is used on that route but still doesn't answer the question...what route is 8800 miles?


Maybe he meant kms?
 
User avatar
CarlosSi
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:29 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:25 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
I'd look at some of the most unserved routes for UA or DL which require such range to make that determination.

Perhaps IAH-SIN direct would warrant UA to have one, for example (it's 400 miles longer than EWR-SIN). Unless DL or UA wanted to tap into NYC-SYD as well, there aren't many other routes I could think of. Unless they could get some 5th freedom routes to fly from some of their Star Alliance/SkyTeam hubs (I'm thinking NRT-GRU on UA, in one instance). Just a thought.


Why would UA want to fly NRT-GRU which is almost 11,500 miles, just about 1,000 miles short of being antipodal, as a 5th freedom route? EWR is on the great circle route between NRT and GRU. Adding less than 100 miles to an NRT-EWR-GRU allows an NRT-IAH-GRU routing through UA's IAH hub to Latin America.


Hypothetical, although yeah that actually wouldn’t make sense. You could overfly most airports on an antipodal route (taking winds into consideration may change things).
 
United1
Posts: 4185
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:27 pm

HP69 wrote:
United1 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:


Delta's ATL to Johannesburg, its not only the distance but the altitude taking off from J'burg. United's Houston to SYD and SFO to Singapore are all at sea level since those three cities are coastal.


Yes altitude is an issue at JNB and why the 77L is used on that route but still doesn't answer the question...what route is 8800 miles?


Maybe he meant kms?


Maybe....doesn't really matter I suppose :)
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8267
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:27 pm

UA857 wrote:
Looking at the Range of the 777-8 Should United or Delta order 777-8 to improve range I could potientaly find them as replacements for Delta's 777-200LRs.


Delta's ten 77Ls are 10-12 years old. DL has 13 A350s, another 12 on order, and will get another 14 if the LATAM deal goes through. How is replacing 77Ls a fleet priority for Delta?
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:40 pm

No. Future high-gross-weight deliveries of the A350-900 will suit both airlines' long-range needs just fine.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3627
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:44 pm

United1 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The only possible mission Delta could have for a 777-8 is Johannesburg to Atlanta. United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does, their 787-9 & 77W cover their high capacity and almost ultra long haul needs. All United flights to Australia are currently by 787-9.


What route does DL fly that is 8800 miles?

UAs IAH-SYD and SFO-SIN are longer flights than ATL-JNB.

I don't think UA (or for that matter DL) need the 777-8 but curious why you believe is would be a better fit at DL than at UA? Both seem to be sold on the A350 which of course can, at the ULR weight, cover all of the above routes.



Due to Altitude at T-O combined with headwinds ATL-JNB.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:59 pm

zkojq wrote:
No. The 777-8 is a plane for government subsidised airlines. UA or DL would be far better off with 787-10s.

Your second sentence doesn't make much sense in context, seeing as the mission profiles for the two types are as different as night and day.


jfk777 wrote:
United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does

False.

ATL-JNB is 8440mi, and while it may have its own unique altitude challenges, UA has multiple routes longer than that: particularly IAH-SYD, and also SFO-SIN.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
United1
Posts: 4185
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:08 pm

rbavfan wrote:
United1 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The only possible mission Delta could have for a 777-8 is Johannesburg to Atlanta. United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does, their 787-9 & 77W cover their high capacity and almost ultra long haul needs. All United flights to Australia are currently by 787-9.


What route does DL fly that is 8800 miles?

UAs IAH-SYD and SFO-SIN are longer flights than ATL-JNB.

I don't think UA (or for that matter DL) need the 777-8 but curious why you believe is would be a better fit at DL than at UA? Both seem to be sold on the A350 which of course can, at the ULR weight, cover all of the above routes.



Due to Altitude at T-O combined with headwinds ATL-JNB.


359ULR shouldn't have an issue on that route and the 350 is already a known type at DL.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jfk777
Posts: 7366
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:20 pm

HP69 wrote:
United1 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:


Delta's ATL to Johannesburg, its not only the distance but the altitude taking off from J'burg. United's Houston to SYD and SFO to Singapore are all at sea level since those three cities are coastal.


Yes altitude is an issue at JNB and why the 77L is used on that route but still doesn't answer the question...what route is 8800 miles?


Maybe he meant kms?


No definitely Miles not Kilometers, look at the map. Johannesburg is way at the buttom of Africa on top of a mountain, Atlanta is in North Georgia almost in Tennesee. 16 hours of flying definitely over 8,000 miles.

The route is Atlanta to Johannesburg.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4324
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:58 am

jfk777 wrote:
HP69 wrote:
United1 wrote:

Yes altitude is an issue at JNB and why the 77L is used on that route but still doesn't answer the question...what route is 8800 miles?


Maybe he meant kms?


No definitely Miles not Kilometers, look at the map. Johannesburg is way at the buttom of Africa on top of a mountain, Atlanta is in North Georgia almost in Tennesee. 16 hours of flying definitely over 8,000 miles.

The route is Atlanta to Johannesburg.


7,300 NM
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21861
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:48 am

intotheair wrote:
I've never understood why Boeing went so off the map on range and capacity for the 777X. It seems like it would have been a safer bet to simply enhance the 77W. The 350 seat size and ~8,000 nmi range seems to be the sweet spot for most airlines.


The 777X was designed to supplant the A380 and 744 market with a giant twin. The 777-9 will seat 70-80% of the passengers that the A380 did while offering superior range on half the engines and with a wingspan that will fit in existing 777-capable gates.

No US carrier has ever been interested in the A380 and only two of them bought the 744 (and that was of necessity because at the time the 744 was the only option with the range those carriers' extensive transpacific routes without having to stop somewhere). US carriers have a very unique marketplace spanning an enormous single nation-state with a gigantic air traffic market. Unlike the EU, Asian, or Mid-East carriers, each US carrier has a distributed hub network consisting of 5-8 hubs scattered across the USA. Most international destinations that could support a VLA are served from at least two hubs, and sometimes three or four.

Consider this scenario: a passenger in Fresno, CA needs to get to London for business. Like most frequent flyers in CA, he's probably a UA Mileage Plus member, so he could take UA through LAX, SFO, ORD, or DEN. So because of this variety of paths he might take, UA's traffic to LHR is distributed throughout their network, meaning that they need more flights on smaller aircraft rather than a few VLAs to serve that destination. This is quite different from a passenger in Lyon, France who needs to get to SFO. If he's an AF frequent flyer, he's probably going to go through CDG and because AF only serves SFO from CDG, they are going to use a large aircraft (A380) on this thick route.

The other consequence of the sheer size of the USA is that it's not *that* far from most of the world. Australia is 14 hours from the West Coast. Singapore is 15-16. A carrier like UA, DL, or AA can route East Coast passengers through West Coast hubs to get them to those destinations. So US carriers don't need many ULH aircraft.

So foreign carriers with only one or two hubs (LH, EK, SQ, AF, etc.) may be interested in the 777X but US carriers will probably not be interested in anything larger than the A35J.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:45 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The only possible mission Delta could have for a 777-8 is Johannesburg to Atlanta. United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does, their 787-9 & 77W cover their high capacity and almost ultra long haul needs. All United flights to Australia are currently by 787-9.


SFO-SYD is upgauged to the 77W for the northern hemisphere winter.

well? Exactly what route would United need a 777-8 or -9 to fly? It's not like they need to fly EWR- SYD, Especially since you can connect via SFO or LAX.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4711
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:05 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
HP69 wrote:

Maybe he meant kms?


No definitely Miles not Kilometers, look at the map. Johannesburg is way at the buttom of Africa on top of a mountain, Atlanta is in North Georgia almost in Tennesee. 16 hours of flying definitely over 8,000 miles.

The route is Atlanta to Johannesburg.


7,300 NM

Today it’s planned at 8587 miles.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL200
The last of the famous international playboys
 
flyingisthebest
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:05 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The only possible mission Delta could have for a 777-8 is Johannesburg to Atlanta. United doesn't fly anything close to 8,800 miles as Delta does, their 787-9 & 77W cover their high capacity and almost ultra long haul needs. All United flights to Australia are currently by 787-9.


SFO-SYD is upgauged to the 77W for the northern hemisphere winter.

well? Exactly what route would United need a 777-8 or -9 to fly? It's not like they need to fly EWR- SYD/MEL, Especially since you can connect via SFO or LAX.



I actually see UA taking 777-8’s for EWR-SYD/MEL LAX-SIN or potentially EWR-JNB and then use it for high capacity routes where they are currently using 77W’s.

After all people pay a premium for a non stop v the over 30 airlines who offer a one stop solution.
Last edited by flyingisthebest on Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyingisthebest
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:06 am

flyingisthebest wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

SFO-SYD is upgauged to the 77W for the northern hemisphere winter.

well? Exactly what route would United need a 777-8 or -9 to fly? It's not like they need to fly EWR- SYD/MEL, Especially since you can connect via SFO or LAX.



I actually see UA taking 777-8’s for EWR-SYD/MEL LAX-SIN or potentially EWR-JNB and then use it for high capacity routes where they are currently using 77W’s.

After all people pay a premium for a non stop v the over 30 airlines who offer a one stop solution.
 
JohnAudiR18
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:37 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:20 am

(sarcasm) *GASP* Someone dared to suggest that Delta should buy something from Boeing, it's blasphemy, they'll buy turboprops before they buy new stuff from Boeing at the rate they're going
 
SeoulIncheon
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:52 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:35 am

Delta's longest route is ATL-JNB and it's actually 777 tyre speed limit that affects performance ex-JNB. This route is not a good reason to purchase 777x, and I don't see any of Delta's planned routes that would require something more than 359 range (unless DL somehow returns to HKG or starts SIN...). Delta is also only US-legacy not to fly 77W...
United - they have a lot of ULH routes, and probably will want to restart LAX-SIN. They also have a lot of HKG/SYD routes that are high-capacity ultra-long-haul which require something more than 359 or longer-ranged than 77W. I can see United might getting interested in 777X but not Delta.
American might also get interested in long-term if they want something bigger thab 787-9 given that AA won't get 350s.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2638
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:41 am

I could see UA possibly ordering the A350-1000 modified for longer routes if this Qantas project works.
And delta could use it to Sydney and Melbourne from ATL. I wouldn't discount it. However unless somebody
actually takes the standard 777-8/9 in large numbers in the USA I think you can give up on that. EWR to Sydney
could work but the Question is would there be enough demand for two carriers in this market? ATL would be a winner
for sure due to the sheer connections. But once again only the A350 makes sense without unnecessarily complicating
the fleet.

In short I can only see 4 markets where this may work.
UA and DL from California and Seattle to Asia Pacific,
NYC/ATL to Hot and High airports in the Middle East/Africa/India
Anywhere long haul they want the the extra cargo capacity but
not needing to fill the fuel up.

All that being said, with the A350-1000LR if it goes ahead being the
obvious choice (and it's looking almost certain now QF will pick this,
NZ will likely follow, and possibly VS...) if Boeing sharpens its pencils
anything could happen. They desperately need a few wins on the board
atm. McD did that with the MD-80 at American and look what happened.
 
musman9853
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:50 am

JohnAudiR18 wrote:
(sarcasm) *GASP* Someone dared to suggest that Delta should buy something from Boeing, it's blasphemy, they'll buy turboprops before they buy new stuff from Boeing at the rate they're going

Tbf they did want to be launch customers for nma
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:55 am

It's not just range, it's payload and range.

The A359ULR flies far, but gives up half its standard passenger load and the front cargo hold to do it. That's why Qantas is insisting on an A35J variant for the Airbus Project Sunrise entry.

DL would also have to go the A35J route to truly replace the 77Ls. But the A35J should do 90% of the 77L payload range, and with about 10% less fuel consumption CASM wise. The Project Sunrise variant should improve on the payload range.

The 778 should do 100% while having 10% or better CASM. Note that this is for the pax variant.

As with Project Sunrise, the competition is close and other factors like price, resale value, etc., will decide the day.

As for United, they just got their 77Ws. With the fourth PIP. They don't need replacing for decades. But when they do, both the 778 and the A35J will carry (about) the same load while using less fuel.
 
tpaewr
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:04 am

The new hanger at IAH is being built to handle a 777-9 FWIW
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2729
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:46 am

While the 777-9 would be better for them regardless, paper range is a passenger only range. Its also using a relatively light interior compared to what most airlines use. So put in a bunch of fancy seats for F and J passengers, then fill the belly with cargo... and its not going paper range.

One also notes the 779 would kill a 747 combi on any route. So for any airline that ever found a 747 combi interesting.... Thats on pure economics, never mind the regulations that make combi plane a certification nightmare today.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 724
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:15 am

Spacepope wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:

No definitely Miles not Kilometers, look at the map. Johannesburg is way at the buttom of Africa on top of a mountain, Atlanta is in North Georgia almost in Tennesee. 16 hours of flying definitely over 8,000 miles.

The route is Atlanta to Johannesburg.


7,300 NM

Today it’s planned at 8587 miles.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL200


It might be important to note, that there are (right now) nautical miles (used in aviation and shipping), statute miles (US) and miles (international) in use. So to avoid confusion we should use the nautical mile for distance in aviation. Especially as we also use knots for velocity which is based on the nautical mile.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:23 am

United1 wrote:
359ULR shouldn't have an issue on that route and the 350 is already a known type at DL.

A359ULR would be utterly useless over a standard 280T A359, on such a route.


SeoulIncheon wrote:
Delta is also only US-legacy not to fly 77W.

Not true, seeing as AS flies no widebodies at all.

And yes, no matter how colloquially misused the term may be: there are four US legacy carriers, not three.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 2053
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:44 am

flyingisthebest wrote:
I actually see UA taking 777-8’s for EWR-SYD/MEL LAX-SIN

I agree with this.

East coast of Australia to east coast of the US would be ideal for the 777-8. United runs a high cabin density than Qantas so using the A350-900 would be a bit of a stretch.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4354
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:30 am

LAX772LR wrote:
zkojq wrote:
No. The 777-8 is a plane for government subsidised airlines. UA or DL would be far better off with 787-10s.

Your second sentence doesn't make much sense in context, seeing as the mission profiles for the two types are as different as night and day.

Which is exactly the point since the 787-10 matches the mission profiles of UA + DL significantly better.
First to fly the 787-9
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:52 am

The market prospects for the 777x are quite dim, both for the 8 and the 9.
 
United1
Posts: 4185
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:17 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
United1 wrote:
359ULR shouldn't have an issue on that route and the 350 is already a known type at DL.

A359ULR would be utterly useless over a standard 280T A359, on such a route.


Oh?

As mentioned earlier JNB is hot and high. From what I understand you need an ULR to operate the route without payload penalties. That’s one of the reasons UA picked CPT vs JNB as even the 789 can’t do JNB-US nonstop without a penalty.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Should United or Delta order the 777-8?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:07 pm

United1 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
United1 wrote:
359ULR shouldn't have an issue on that route and the 350 is already a known type at DL.

A359ULR would be utterly useless over a standard 280T A359, on such a route.

From what I understand you need an ULR to operate the route without payload penalties.

That makes no sense.

The whole POINT of the -ULR is that you're taking a payload penalty in order to tank more fuel.
There's otherwise nothing a -ULR could do that a payload-restricted 280T standard A359 couldn't also do, so long as the latter isn't FVL.



zkojq wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
zkojq wrote:
No. The 777-8 is a plane for government subsidised airlines. UA or DL would be far better off with 787-10s.

Your second sentence doesn't make much sense in context, seeing as the mission profiles for the two types are as different as night and day.

Which is exactly the point since the 787-10 matches the mission profiles of UA + DL significantly better.

Why are you speaking as if airlines only have a single mission profile for longhaulers? No one in their right mind is suggesting that they or any airline order the likes of a 778 for 9hr Atlantic hops.


SteelChair wrote:
The market prospects for the 777x are quite dim, both for the 8 and the 9.

The -8 perhaps. The -9 is in no such danger, seeing as its primary replacement-cycle target hasn't even begun in earnest. Let's not exaggerate.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 42 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos