djm18
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Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:35 pm

The year that changed Boeing: Airplane maker struggles amid 737 Max crisis

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... spartandhp

In reading this article I am left wondering if Boeing has really done enough. Do they truly understand that this runs much deeper than getting the MAX certified? This in my opinion requires a marked pivot where the entire culture of the organization changes. Where they bring back the Boeing of old where amazing professionals put out amazing product serving the best interest of their clients and the flying public. Can they again become a product focused organization and stop obsessing with the bottom line and the share price?

Have they really done enough in a year where they have let down passengers, flight crews, clients, suppliers, employees and many more?

In short, and not to get political, have they truly done enough to make Boeing great again?
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:43 pm

Kevin McAllister is gone which is a good start. Dennis Muilenberg should be next, along with anyone else who knew about the safety concerns and did not speak up. There needs to be a complete house cleaning effort to remove anyone who put profit over safety. Until that happens we will just see more of the same.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:19 pm

I think that remains to be seen. Their recent track record doesnt inspire much confidence.

I'm glad to see a thread that acknowledges theit problems run far deeper than the science of the Max problem.
 
tomaheath
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:23 pm

They are great.
 
SEU
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:24 pm

I wouldnt be surprised if Lockheed Martin takes them over soon.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:32 pm

djm18 wrote:
Where they bring back the Boeing of old where amazing professionals put out amazing product serving the best interest of their clients and the flying public. Can they again become a product focused organization and stop obsessing with the bottom line and the share price?

That focus came from former GE executives such as McNearney (now gone) and McAllister (now gone).

Yet I have to say I'm a bit dubious about a massive culture change and a return to the "good old days" however you define them.

I'm a child of the Jet Age / Space Age and gigs at Boeing, P&W, GE, etc were probably the best high tech gigs you could get.

These days there is so much more going on in high tech that it's doubtful that Boeing can attract talent like it once did.

Also a lot of those tech gigs come with a very nice pay package along with various equity kickers and growth potential that Boeing doesn't match.

That's not to denigrate the talented people who do choose to work there, all I'm saying is there's a lot more choice and over time Boeing will have to step up its game to keep and retain talent.
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NameOmitted
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:34 pm

I think that Boeing can never be "great" in the way that they were because the technology has matured. For all the reasons planespotters lament the loss of three holers or t-tails, the fact is that Boeing (and Airbus) does build amazing aircraft, more amazing than anything they, or Dougless, or Lockheed have in the past. What airline that flies the 787 longs for the day when long-haul meant 707?

We're not going to see exciting new aircraft that stretch the boundaries because, really, what new boundaries need stretching? Airbus showed us the 880, and we all know that's not the upper limit. No one honestly does not think the larger 880 would not have been a technical success. Once our long-range aircraft reach antipodal ranges, why go further? The era of exciting exploration is over with regard to civilian aircraft. From here on out, it will be incremental, market-driven, improvements. There is simply no emotional way of making that "great."

Will Boeing be a successful, trusted, manufacturer? Of course it will. We are very forgiving of a company that makes it possible to get home for Christmas.
 
djm18
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:35 pm

tomaheath wrote:
They are great.


They were great and have the potential to be great again. They need to with humility own up to what has happened and work to build a better company. The question is will the take advantage of this crisis to make the changes necessary. I for one am very concerned that they are not doing nearly enough. The fact that the CEO is still there is not especially comforting and making a Private Equity professional the new chairman seems to be more of a nod to Wall Street.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:54 pm

djm18 wrote:
tomaheath wrote:
They are great.


They were great and have the potential to be great again. They need to with humility own up to what has happened and work to build a better company. The question is will the take advantage of this crisis to make the changes necessary. I for one am very concerned that they are not doing nearly enough. The fact that the CEO is still there is not especially comforting and making a Private Equity professional the new chairman seems to be more of a nod to Wall Street.


I have said it before, and I will say it again: If Boeing is ONLY beholden to investors - and takes that road over safety, as the MAX debacle has shown - then no, they never will be great again. The great engineers, the great builders, they great support employees will ALL be sacrificed on the altar of "shareholder profit" and "bonuses before salaries", followed by a crowd of "executives" moving on to devour another great company, all with Golden Parachutes and guaranteed bonuses no matter how much they screw up.

If Boeing is interested in the future - and the long-term viability of the company - then they need to put safety first. It doesn't make a Communist or Socialist if I demand that my government ensure that the product I might be using DOESN'T KILL ME. But as the MAX disasters have shown, big companies with mismanagement that cares only for itself will assume that "good enough" is good enough, when we know that it isn't, and in this case, hundreds of people are dead over an engineering issue that was sidestepped for the sake of expediency and higher profits. And months later, the mess is still being cleaned up.

My two cents.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:05 pm

I think we need to have an anti-Boeing subforum. So all the hate can get posted in one spot. Yesterday we had someone saying how poor the 787 interior quality is and now this.

Doing a search of the DJM18 username shows he has only posted in the 737 crash threads. He regularly posts links to sensationalist negative news articles.

I can't believe the admins accept this. All it takes is for the troll to put one or two questions in their post and they are tricked.

Or the other option is to just have one Boeing bashing thread and any new posts can just get merged onto that.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:23 am

Can I barf now or do I need to make it back to my room "Can Boeing be made great again", in their minds it will only happen if Elon Musk becomes CEO (LOL)

Too often Anet acts like Anut. A fans berating B fans and B fans throwing shade at A. Meanwhile airlines select their planes based on which one works best for them, we are talking about $200M assets and cost per hour to operate like $25K, The market is brutal on airlines that do not make the best choices.

What drives me nuts with most of the bashers is if they get their way, we will have the exact same planes flying 30 years from now, no new models, no new positions working on the latest design, just more vanilla. Airbus doesn't need to certify any new models, because the A fans feel they are perfect. The A321 will just dominate the market forever and forever.
 
djm18
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:27 am

This is not a post about bashing Boeing, quite the contrary. This is a post about a fantastic company that has lost its way. And it is to solicit well formulated thoughts from people who know and care about these issues. Hopefully, we can here generate ideas that will help them rebuild and perhaps one day be stronger. I am and have always been a Boeing HUGE Boeing fan, which is why this is so painful. I have come to very much respect Airbus because they produce great product and have become a worthy competitor that forced Boeing over many years to be even better.

My fear, again as someone truly rooting for them, is that they are simply not doing enough. I am sorry if this post has been taken by some to be about Boeing bashing.
 
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afterburner
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:45 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I think we need to have an anti-Boeing subforum.

As well as pro-Boeing one?

djm18 wrote:
I am sorry if this post has been taken by some to be about Boeing bashing.

For some, any criticism to their idols is considered as a bash.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:32 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
I think that Boeing can never be "great" in the way that they were because the technology has matured. For all the reasons planespotters lament the loss of three holers or t-tails, the fact is that Boeing (and Airbus) does build amazing aircraft, more amazing than anything they, or Dougless, or Lockheed have in the past. What airline that flies the 787 longs for the day when long-haul meant 707?

We're not going to see exciting new aircraft that stretch the boundaries because, really, what new boundaries need stretching? Airbus showed us the 880, and we all know that's not the upper limit. No one honestly does not think the larger 880 would not have been a technical success. Once our long-range aircraft reach antipodal ranges, why go further? The era of exciting exploration is over with regard to civilian aircraft. From here on out, it will be incremental, market-driven, improvements. There is simply no emotional way of making that "great."

Will Boeing be a successful, trusted, manufacturer? Of course it will. We are very forgiving of a company that makes it possible to get home for Christmas.



What is an Airbus 880?

Do you mean the A380?
Whatever
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:08 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
I think that Boeing can never be "great" in the way that they were because the technology has matured. For all the reasons planespotters lament the loss of three holers or t-tails, the fact is that Boeing (and Airbus) does build amazing aircraft, more amazing than anything they, or Dougless, or Lockheed have in the past. What airline that flies the 787 longs for the day when long-haul meant 707?

We're not going to see exciting new aircraft that stretch the boundaries because, really, what new boundaries need stretching? Airbus showed us the 880, and we all know that's not the upper limit. No one honestly does not think the larger 880 would not have been a technical success. Once our long-range aircraft reach antipodal ranges, why go further? The era of exciting exploration is over with regard to civilian aircraft. From here on out, it will be incremental, market-driven, improvements. There is simply no emotional way of making that "great."

Will Boeing be a successful, trusted, manufacturer? Of course it will. We are very forgiving of a company that makes it possible to get home for Christmas.



What is an Airbus 880?

Do you mean the A380?

Indeed, I do. Thank you.
 
DALMD80
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:27 am

SEU wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if Lockheed Martin takes them over soon.

Oooh... That would be interesting. I haven't seen a single airliner from either one since the L-1011, so would they keep making airliners, or would mainline planes become a monopoly?
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:09 am

SEU wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if Lockheed Martin takes them over soon.


Just what we need: a company that wouldn’t exist except for government contracts, taking over another that has at least SOME products that depend on the free market, not which lobbyists buy which congressmen.

Yes. I’m cynical.
Remember: Only one dwarf in seven is Happy.
 
SEU
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:45 am

WesternDC6B wrote:
SEU wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if Lockheed Martin takes them over soon.


Just what we need: a company that wouldn’t exist except for government contracts, taking over another that has at least SOME products that depend on the free market, not which lobbyists buy which congressmen.

Yes. I’m cynical.


Probably why it's possible!
 
steveinbc
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:24 pm

DoctorVenkman wrote:
Kevin McAllister is gone which is a good start. Dennis Muilenberg should be next, along with anyone else who knew about the safety concerns and did not speak up. There needs to be a complete house cleaning effort to remove anyone who put profit over safety. Until that happens we will just see more of the same.


I completely agree with this poster . The key is to have a clean sweep of those who knew the safety concerns and ignored or, worse, actively buried them. The latter should face criminal charges in my view.
Boeing's reputation will take time to repair but o have no doubt it will be repaired. I'm wondering aloud if the "divorce" between Boeing headquarters (Chicago) and their manufacturing locations has isolated them from truly being in touch with the business and (in my opinion) the engineering teams that hold safety at the heart of what they do.
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klm617
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:00 pm

Boeing is great already.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Veigar
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:41 am

WesternDC6B wrote:
SEU wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if Lockheed Martin takes them over soon.


Just what we need: a company that wouldn’t exist except for government contracts, taking over another that has at least SOME products that depend on the free market, not which lobbyists buy which congressmen.

Yes. I’m cynical.


But imagine the Lockheed L-777X, same fuselage as L1011 but twin engines! :rotfl:
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:48 pm

Veigar wrote:
WesternDC6B wrote:
SEU wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if Lockheed Martin takes them over soon.


Just what we need: a company that wouldn’t exist except for government contracts, taking over another that has at least SOME products that depend on the free market, not which lobbyists buy which congressmen.

Yes. I’m cynical.


But imagine the Lockheed L-777X, same fuselage as L1011 but twin engines! :rotfl:


I would love to step into my way-back machine and fly on a 1011 again. An amazing machine, and in the days when coach passengers still got things like leg room.
Remember: Only one dwarf in seven is Happy.
 
bgm
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Re: Can Boeing be made great again?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:03 pm

klm617 wrote:
Boeing is great already.


Their cash cow is grounded for 6+ months, clogging up parking lots after killing hundreds of people due to cutting corners.

I'd hardly call that great. :sarcastic:
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