Updated: Chaos at LAX with new TNC restrictions

Bricktop · Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:21 pm

I can't speak for LAX, but at FLL at 11 pm one evening the Uber/Lyft pickup was such a cluster-f that it was literal standstill. Arriving passengers kept piling up as shuttle buses couldn't get through. Me, wife and kid decided to walk to the car rental terminal with all our cases in 85 degree heat and max humidity. No-one on-line at Hertz because they were all waiting for buses was the only saving grace, but it was almost 12:30 am before we got clear. If they had an off-site like IAH, blood would have been spilled.

OTOH, I have never had a problem with Uber at EWR, which is generally a nightmare.

airbazar · Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:23 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
The problem is the absence of high quality public transport. Where are the state-of-the-art subway lines running directly under the main concourses of US airports with station embarkation within steps of check-in? Go to say e.g. AMS and look how it is done.

This is the U.S. we're talking about and California at that. If you can't drive there, "there" may as well not exist. It's not a total shocker that I see people here claim that a single user vehicle is a more efficient method to transport people than a 50 person bus because, LA
It's not a perfect move but it's a necessary one. When it takes longer to get in/out of the airport than your flight takes then we know there's a serious problem. It took me close to 1 hour on the rental car shuttle to travel the short distance between the rental car drop off and the terminal.

Then LAX need to ban ALL personal cars, not just rideshare & taxis.

If personal cars are the biggest cause of roadway congestion then yes but I bet they're not.
The way I see it, rideshare replaced personal cars that people were parking at the airport. It's cheaper to take a rideshare than it is to drive your car and park at the airport. So to have to take a shuttle now is no worse than when people were taking a shuttle before from the parking lots, with the benefit that it's still cheaper.
When the people mover and consolidated rental car facility opens, it should improve roadway congestion significantly as a large number of those buses are eliminated. Ideally at that point they can move the rideshare pickups into the central parking garages making it more accessible, just like it's been done at a lot of other airports.

Kno · Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:28 pm

LAX is ridiculous. I’ve showed up 2 hours early for my flight before and missed it because the horseshoe took over an hour to get through. Extreme example but it can happen.

flyfresno · Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:30 pm

It certainly seems like rideshares are causing all the problems. Often, it will take me just as long to get from the “LAX next exit” sign on the freeway to T3/TBIT as it did to get from DTLA to that sign, unless it’s right in the middle of rush hour. Conversely, I often see people requesting rides while *still on the plane*, and see tons of drivers just sitting there at the curb looking around for 3,4,5 minutes. I know Lyft will rematch and will only wait so long, but it appears that many rideshares are waiting at least a minute or two until their passenger(s) get in the car. The “horseshoe” has become an absolute nightmare, especially in the evenings.

blockski · Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:33 pm

airbazar wrote:
The way I see it, rideshare replaced personal cars that people were parking at the airport. It's cheaper to take a rideshare than it is to drive your car and park at the airport. So to have to take a shuttle now is no worse than when people were taking a shuttle before from the parking lots, with the benefit that it's still cheaper.

This is certainly true. It's borne out in the data at other airports. At DCA, parking revenue and occupancy is down. Overall revenue is up, because of the ridehail fee they've imposed.

The other traffic management strategy they've used at DCA (which has extraordinary congestion currently because of construction) is to offer 60 minutes of free parking for anyone picking up or dropping off. Part of the reason for this is they had to close the cell phone lot for construction, but they have the parking capacity available (because of Uber/Lyft) and they want to discourage as much circling as possible.

They've geofenced the ridehail apps to a certain area, which ensures they can keep the other parking access roadway clear.

delimit · Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:43 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
The problem is the absence of high quality public transport. Where are the state-of-the-art subway lines running directly under the main concourses of US airports with station embarkation within steps of check-in? Go to say e.g. AMS and look how it is done.

This is the U.S. we're talking about and California at that. If you can't drive there, "there" may as well not exist. It's not a total shocker that I see people here claim that a single user vehicle is a more efficient method to transport people than a 50 person bus because, LA
It's not a perfect move but it's a necessary one. When it takes longer to get in/out of the airport than your flight takes then we know there's a serious problem. It took me close to 1 hour on the rental car shuttle to travel the short distance between the rental car drop off and the terminal.

Then LAX need to ban ALL personal cars, not just rideshare & taxis.

What? Why? This will improve the situation for the personal cars which are the majority of the traffic.

LAXintl · Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:56 pm

airlineaddict wrote:
With that said, the new rules smack of elitism since TCPs (executive cars and limos) will be allowed to pick up at the curb.

Pyrex wrote:
This is LA, after all, home of Hollywood. The kind of people that fly their private jets half way around the world to lecture us all on how we need to stop going on vacation to Florida and Hawaii. Continuing to allow limos while banning Uber and Lyft actually sounds like completely in character.

Limo's and TCPs are not the problem, being such a small percentage.
Its the TNC rideshares which have grown immensely in recent years and today represent 29.4% of vehicle movements in the CTA.

StrandedAtMKG · Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:04 pm

Ahhh yes, let's add another hurdle to air travel for disabled travelers. Air travel isn't already enough of an accessibility nightmare!

Elementalism · Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:11 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
janders wrote:
Really no different than BOS, SFO, LAS, LGA that moved ride shares away from the curb.

Imo great move as they create incredible congestion (in LAX case more than 1 in 4 vehicles at the airport).

Whats the curb? Because you can call / get dropped off at LGA right up to the sidewalk that leads into the terminal. I've done it twice in the past two weeks

Yeah, I was in San Francisco in April and had no issue getting a Lyft to pickup and drop off at the curb.

Cubsrule · Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:13 pm

blockski wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
jomur wrote:
Most airports I've used don't drop off outside the terminal buildings and I've survived. It isn't a big thing, so what if you have to walk a bit further, for the vast majority it isn't a hardship to walk.....

Maybe use something like the Pods at Heathrow T5 to get from the remote drop off points to terminal buildings?

If there was a working alternative, that would be great.

This is a rule with huge unintended consequences.

This is a rule mandated by not expanding the airport. How about more curb space and the proposed T0 and new UA terminal with a proper road network?

The people mover is a stop gap. The economy of this city is dependent on air transit. There is a reason my employer has moved so many jobs out of state.

Lightsaber

This is the working alternative.

This is also not a problem created by a lack of airport expansion - this is specific to the rise of ride-hail services. It's a common problem across lots of airports, where curb space will always be a scarce resource. Cars in general are spatially inefficient ways to move people; Uber/Lyft are moreso because of the deadhead movements and the specific matching between driver and rider.

Taxis present a lot of the same challenges, so years ago, most airports dealt with them via taxi queues. That's what this is - a modern version of a taxi queue to handle the immense costs imposed by these services.

There are technical solutions to deadheads, and the TNCs use them at airports where - unlike this plan at LAX - dropoff and pickup are in the same place.

NickLAX · Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:35 pm

I'm out of LAX 5 times a month. The TNC's are insane. I now drop myself if using a TNC at the Hyatt and WALK, YES WALK. Always quicker than the morning drop.

The TNC matching lot is next to Terminal 1 - LAWA acquired back part of the lot space they lease to Park and Fly.

To be honest I've been using Park n Fly MORE in the last year. I can get in and out quicker than the terminal lots for a 1-3 day trip. Co-workers are seeing 30-40 mins to get in and out of the LAX roadway, I can walk to TBIT/T4 in 15 min from the Hyatt or Park and Fly. The TNC's have been the major reason for congestion. Have you seen the upper level TNC pick locations? NOTHING moves around it.

Those saying "Good luck on the People Mover" - I would expect LAWA to charge a $20 premium for drop (and even pick coming back) at the terminals once that is in operation. Goal is to move the TNC's AWAY from the terminal horse-shoe and build a proper lot for handling matching and drops

spinotter · Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:37 pm

747-600X wrote:
Sorry, but what's the point of a CURB in the first place if not to GET PICKED UP? I didn't fly there to walk to my final destination. Does it matter whether I'm being picked up by family or friends or a rideshare? What choices am I going to have left? I mean, what vehicles are *supposed* to use the roadway?

The best answer to your question is: "ONLY PUBLIC TRANSPORT VEHICLES, no private vehicles." Never happen, but should be.

JHwk · Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:41 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Courtesy shuttle buses for hotels, car rental, and private parking lots made up 6% of CTA traffic in 2018. Add in LAWA buses, FlyAway, and other shared rides like Super Shuttle we are up to merely 8.3% of CTA traffic total. Far more efficient use of roadway capacity than TNCs.

I would be far more interested in seeing percentages of seconds/airport passenger of each vehicle than vehicle counts. Uber/Lyft upstairs pickup encourages people without checked bags to use them, reducing boarding time and curb utilization. Adding shuttles downstairs just increases the lane changing issues of the busses that add congestion.

The solution is to eliminate the departure level crosswalk at TBIT, and force crossings down to arrivals. Possibly add a through-lane and garage lane on the left from T3 to T4 as well. As much as I do agree that Uber/Lyft add congestion, a vehicle that drops off and picks up in a single loop is twice as efficient as one doing a single function. Maybe that means T1 needs their Uber/Lyft pickup to be in the new location to help limit cars doing double loops, but the rest of the terminals help benefit flow.

A health dose of Jersey Barriers (k-rails) instead of lane markings would do wonders as well...

usflyer msp · Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:45 pm

Expect LAX to charge for personal car dropoffs/pickups within the next 10 years. It is the next step in reducing curb congestion. DFW already does it and it being discussed all around the country. It is just a matter of how to collect the funds without causing further traffic backups.

NickLAX · Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:49 pm

JHwk wrote:
The solution is to eliminate the departure level crosswalk at TBIT, and force crossings down to arrivals. Possibly add a through-lane and garage lane on the left from T3 to T4 as well. As much as I do agree that Uber/Lyft add congestion, a vehicle that drops off and picks up in a single loop is twice as efficient as one doing a single function. Maybe that means T1 needs their Uber/Lyft pickup to be in the new location to help limit cars doing double loops, but the rest of the terminals help benefit flow.

The TBIT drop area I would agree is a mess. There needs to be two lanes that are added on upper deck to bypass that entire area. Problem with the upper area is there is not enough lanes and lanes for bypass. Also in mornings the TNC's at T4 /5 / 6 and 7 should be dropped downstairs as there is NO traffic at all. I will agree with LAXIntl - the TNC congestion is insane. I go in/out of LAX 50 times a year and it's maddening how the TNC cars have just made an already congested higher pax count worse. There is NOTHING good from the TNC's today as far as traffic goes. TNC pax miss flights and PAY $$$ for time to get out once picked up.

airbazar · Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:11 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Expect LAX to charge for personal car dropoffs/pickups within the next 10 years. It is the next step in reducing curb congestion. DFW already does it and it being discussed all around the country. It is just a matter of how to collect the funds without causing further traffic backups.

That was evaluated here in BOS and it was dropped. Instead opting for moving TNC away from the terminals and into the central parking garage. Why? Because TNC has reduced the need for airport parking significantly and so airports are being pressed to replace that lost revenue with what is taking it away: TNC. So what once used to be parking is now TNC pickup. This trend is only going to grow with the introduction of self-driving cars where even personal cars won't be left at the airport anymore. Maybe then LAX will finally have the space to build larger and better terminals

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
Ahhh yes, let's add another hurdle to air travel for disabled travelers. Air travel isn't already enough of an accessibility nightmare!

If it's like at other airports those are exempt.

blockski · Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:28 pm

The other reason to ban TNCs and not private cars is that it's a lot easier to work with Uber and Lyft and geofence a distinct terminal area. Charging for private cars is a much more challenging undertaking, unless you have access roads designed with that purpose in mind (like DFW).

Pyrex · Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:53 pm

LAXintl wrote:
airlineaddict wrote:
With that said, the new rules smack of elitism since TCPs (executive cars and limos) will be allowed to pick up at the curb.

Pyrex wrote:
This is LA, after all, home of Hollywood. The kind of people that fly their private jets half way around the world to lecture us all on how we need to stop going on vacation to Florida and Hawaii. Continuing to allow limos while banning Uber and Lyft actually sounds like completely in character.

Limo's and TCPs are not the problem, being such a small percentage.
Its the TNC rideshares which have grown immensely in recent years and today represent 29.4% of vehicle movements in the CTA.

Functionally they do exactly the same thing, the only difference is who dispatches them. In many cases limo drivers actually will also work for Uber and Lyft. Under that logic Cabify or whatever upstart competitor comes up should be able to provide the services as well, since they are smaller than Uber and Lyft. This is nothing but the typical LA progressive elitists trying to keep the rif-raf away.

cynlb · Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:24 pm

"LA international airport"
https://youtu.be/OuaHjv6Ij08

gmcc · Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:31 pm

The real problem at LAX is an increase of 28 million passengers since 2008 with no proportional increase in landslide improvements. When you do that it ends up being like trying to squeeze a basketball through a garden hose. Until that is addressed it won't get any better.

blockski · Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:37 pm

gmcc wrote:
The real problem at LAX is an increase of 28 million passengers since 2008 with no proportional increase in landslide improvements. When you do that it ends up being like trying to squeeze a basketball through a garden hose. Until that is addressed it won't get any better.

They're building landside improvements.

But don't kid yourself, this isn't just an LAX problem. It's an Uber/Lyft problem, and LAX is not the only airport with this headache, even if the scale they're dealing with is bigger than most.

PA110 · Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:53 pm

Elementalism wrote:
Yeah, I was in San Francisco in April and had no issue getting a Lyft to pickup and drop off at the curb.

I was too, but they've since moved the pick-up to the central parking garage. It was the same yesterday when I was in Seattle. You pick-up all app-based rides in the parking garage. It's well marked, sensibly laid out, and easily accessible from the terminal. Drop-offs can still be done curbside. It's a win-win for all concerned.

LAX is a lot more problematic. It's a very elongated horseshoe. A central pick-up spot would be quite a walk from certain terminals.

747megatop · Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:55 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
This is an astoundingly stupid move.

I can guarantee you that whoever thought of this idea has not actually tried it because anyone who did will take about 30 seconds to realize that any real implemention of this will be atrocious. I couldn't have come up with an idea this stupid if you paid me. Everyone knows its the shuttles clogging up World Way that are the problem. Meanwhile the people mover is nowhere close to being finished, so somehow the solution is to ban curbside pickups and add more shuttles instead!!!!???!!!! Man you can't make this stuff up.

It is not stupid, the math works. A bus takes the same curb space as three TNC cars but can carry 50 people instead of 3. It should be great step in reducing curbside congestion.

It is a stupid move because it not driven my Math. The biggest culprits of congestion by far are single passenger cars/SUVs (be it personal vehicles, single passenger uber/suvs or taxis). It would have made sense if they had said -

1) Private vehicles [there are a LOT of single passenger vehicles that are the main culprits of congestion] allowed only during off peak hours (10pm to 6am for example).
2) Buses, Rideshare Vans (Supershuttle etc.), Hotel Shuttles etc. that transport people off the airport roadway in mass numbers - allowed during ALL HOURS.
Also allowed during peak hours Shared Uber/Lyft/Taxis (2 passengers or more); enforce by penalizing those that accept less than 2 passengers during peak hours.

CantbeGrounded · Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:59 pm

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
Ahhh yes, let's add another hurdle to air travel for disabled travelers. Air travel isn't already enough of an accessibility nightmare!

I'd assume Uber's WAV option will be cleared to use the curb. Not sure if Lyft has an equiv.

seat38a · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:03 pm

Thank god. I knew there was a problem when I was stuck in the hotel shuttle and FlyAway and every single car around me had a uber or lyft decal on its windshield. I drive to the airport but park my car at one of the hotels and take their shuttle. And to all of you who think personal cars are the problem, when was the last time you've actually been to LAX and paid attention to the cars?? You'll find most of them are Uber/Lyfts and personal cars don't circle around waiting for a fare.

Also, let's be honest here. Many Uber and Lyft drivers are not very good drivers. I've lost count how many times I've been stuck behind a Uber or Lyft who can't figure out where they are going and just slowdown to a crawl or block traffic with no consideration for traffic behind them (Airports and just in the city.)

Dieuwer · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:06 pm

Another option would be adding a Congestion Charge. Say: $20 to enter the premises.

phllax · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:11 pm

A couple of things to keep in mind:

Upper Level has construction at T1 East side, T2 & T3 with the Delta headhouse project and soon to be T5 & T6 new headhouse project. This has reduced available curb space.

Lower Level inner loop is closed between T2 & T3 for the Delta project.

Frankly my bigger issue is that courtesy shuttle drop off was moved downstairs outer loop in favor of putting rideshare upstairs. That's not very convenient or easy to get upstairs at times to check in. Maybe now they'll reconsider moving them back upstairs.

gmcc · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:20 pm

blockski wrote:
gmcc wrote:
The real problem at LAX is an increase of 28 million passengers since 2008 with no proportional increase in landslide improvements. When you do that it ends up being like trying to squeeze a basketball through a garden hose. Until that is addressed it won't get any better.

They're building landside improvements.

But don't kid yourself, this isn't just an LAX problem. It's an Uber/Lyft problem, and LAX is not the only airport with this headache, even if the scale they're dealing with is bigger than most.

Not really faulting LAX they are making it work on a airfield footprint that hasn't, at 3500 acres or so expanded, since at least the 1960's. Short of a complete restructure of the landslide access which would probably cost multiple trillions of dollars we are stuck with what we have.

747megatop · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:24 pm

seat38a wrote:
Thank god. I knew there was a problem when I was stuck in the hotel shuttle and FlyAway and every single car around me had a uber or lyft decal on its windshield. I drive to the airport but park my car at one of the hotels and take their shuttle. And to all of you who think personal cars are the problem, when was the last time you've actually been to LAX and paid attention to the cars?? You'll find most of them are Uber/Lyfts and personal cars don't circle around waiting for a fare.

Also, let's be honest here. Many Uber and Lyft drivers are not very good drivers. I've lost count how many times I've been stuck behind a Uber or Lyft who can't figure out where they are going and just slowdown to a crawl or block traffic with no consideration for traffic behind them (Airports and just in the city.)

A few quick points -
1) LAX was a mess even 10 years ago when Uber/Lyft weren't there.
2) Uber/Lyft only made it worse with passengers moving from shared ride vans to Uber/Lyft in droves.
3) If you really see, Uber/Lyft ARE personal cars; people like you and me registering with Uber/Lyft and using our vehicles to ferry passengers and make money. So, the solution like i mentioned in my previous post is to ONLY allow shared ride Uber/Lyft & Taxis and enforce them to accept 2 (or even 3?) passengers at least [I am sure technology can be applied here to find a very innovative way of enforcing this in an automated fashion].

With personal vehicles off the horseshoe; that frees up the parking garages to be used for more ride share vans/shared uber/lyft pickups versus using the curbside. And of course, for those of us who are addicted to our personal vehicles we won't like it one bit!..but guess what during peak hour traffic we are going to get stuck on 405 or 105 getting to the airport AND definitely going to get stuck in the mess that LAX is right now so i don't think we have much of a choice (i almost ended up missing my 9 pm international flight last year..took 1 hour 15 mins to get to LAX from Irvine and then 35 mins to TBIT from the point where we exited 405).

The key here is to get more number of people into vehicles entering and exiting the airport roadway.

lightsaber · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:31 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Another option would be adding a Congestion Charge. Say: $20 to enter the premises.

Instead of expanding tax...

How about expanding greater LA's airport and ground transportation. E g , stop blocking direct subway access.

Other cities have figured this out. Why not the city I call home? Using the airport as a revenue source instead of investing in it has long term issues.

Lightsaber

YVAMWB1900 · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:34 pm

This new rideshare lot will NOT be there for long. It is next to Terminal 1, and that area is where the new plans for Terminal 0 will be built. So, IMO, this is just a short term fix while they are doing construction on the APM in the central terminal area.

747megatop · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Another option would be adding a Congestion Charge. Say: $20 to enter the premises.

Instead of expanding tax...

How about expanding greater LA's airport and ground transportation. E g , stop blocking direct subway access.

Other cities have figured this out. Why not the city I call home? Using the airport as a revenue source instead of investing in it has long term issues.

Lightsaber

https://la.curbed.com/2017/8/4/16098474 ... ubway-rail

GlobalAirways · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:38 pm

They should end it with Taxi's too! As an LA native I will choose: BUR, SNA, LGB or ONT for domestic but am SOL when it comes to international and these ride shares and taxis really add to the already congested mess. I think with the next phase in the remodel they should address this...

usflyer msp · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:45 pm

747megatop wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
This is an astoundingly stupid move.

I can guarantee you that whoever thought of this idea has not actually tried it because anyone who did will take about 30 seconds to realize that any real implemention of this will be atrocious. I couldn't have come up with an idea this stupid if you paid me. Everyone knows its the shuttles clogging up World Way that are the problem. Meanwhile the people mover is nowhere close to being finished, so somehow the solution is to ban curbside pickups and add more shuttles instead!!!!???!!!! Man you can't make this stuff up.

It is not stupid, the math works. A bus takes the same curb space as three TNC cars but can carry 50 people instead of 3. It should be great step in reducing curbside congestion.

It is a stupid move because it not driven my Math. The biggest culprits of congestion by far are single passenger cars/SUVs (be it personal vehicles, single passenger uber/suvs or taxis). It would have made sense if they had said -

1) Private vehicles [there are a LOT of single passenger vehicles that are the main culprits of congestion] allowed only during off peak hours (10pm to 6am for example).
2) Buses, Rideshare Vans (Supershuttle etc.), Hotel Shuttles etc. that transport people off the airport roadway in mass numbers - allowed during ALL HOURS.
Also allowed during peak hours Shared Uber/Lyft/Taxis (2 passengers or more); enforce by penalizing those that accept less than 2 passengers during peak hours.

That would be great but
A) politically you will never get away with banning private cars, especially in LA. You might get away with charging them but banning is a non-starter.
B) All those time limitations are a pain to police. Either you do do something all the time so you can train the public or you don't do it.

747megatop · Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:06 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
747megatop wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

It is not stupid, the math works. A bus takes the same curb space as three TNC cars but can carry 50 people instead of 3. It should be great step in reducing curbside congestion.

It is a stupid move because it not driven my Math. The biggest culprits of congestion by far are single passenger cars/SUVs (be it personal vehicles, single passenger uber/suvs or taxis). It would have made sense if they had said -

1) Private vehicles [there are a LOT of single passenger vehicles that are the main culprits of congestion] allowed only during off peak hours (10pm to 6am for example).
2) Buses, Rideshare Vans (Supershuttle etc.), Hotel Shuttles etc. that transport people off the airport roadway in mass numbers - allowed during ALL HOURS.
Also allowed during peak hours Shared Uber/Lyft/Taxis (2 passengers or more); enforce by penalizing those that accept less than 2 passengers during peak hours.

That would be great but
A) politically you will never get away with banning private cars, especially in LA. You might get away with charging them but banning is a non-starter.
B) All those time limitations are a pain to police. Either you do do something all the time so you can train the public or you don't do it.

My response to both points

A) Which is why i said it is stupid and not Math driven.
B) Very easy to police. When we could send man to the moon 50 years ago AND when we can photograph in accurate detail a car's license plate from space are you suggesting that technology can't be used to figure out how many people are sitting in an uber/lyft vehicle? Same technology kicks in and off based on times. If there is (political) will they can and will do it. Too many vested interests and lobbies though.

You, me and everyone knows it (MATH sense) that fewer the people in more number of vehicles means more congestion. More the people in lesser the number of vehicles means lesser congestion.

usflyer msp · Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:13 pm

747megatop wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
747megatop wrote:
It is a stupid move because it not driven my Math. The biggest culprits of congestion by far are single passenger cars/SUVs (be it personal vehicles, single passenger uber/suvs or taxis). It would have made sense if they had said -

1) Private vehicles [there are a LOT of single passenger vehicles that are the main culprits of congestion] allowed only during off peak hours (10pm to 6am for example).
2) Buses, Rideshare Vans (Supershuttle etc.), Hotel Shuttles etc. that transport people off the airport roadway in mass numbers - allowed during ALL HOURS.
Also allowed during peak hours Shared Uber/Lyft/Taxis (2 passengers or more); enforce by penalizing those that accept less than 2 passengers during peak hours.

That would be great but
A) politically you will never get away with banning private cars, especially in LA. You might get away with charging them but banning is a non-starter.
B) All those time limitations are a pain to police. Either you do do something all the time so you can train the public or you don't do it.

My response to both points

A) Which is why i said it is stupid and not Math driven.
B) Very easy to police. When we could send man to the moon 50 years ago AND when we can photograph in accurate detail a car's license plate from space are you suggesting that technology can't be used to figure out how many people are sitting in an uber/lyft vehicle? Same technology kicks in and off based on times. If there is (political) will they can and will do it. Too many vested interests and lobbies though.

You, me and everyone knows it (MATH sense) that fewer the people in more number of vehicle means more congestion. More the people in lesser the number of vehicles means lesser congestion.

B) There really isn't that technology, at least in an economically feasible form. You would have to have (lots of) airport staff monitoring it.

Moving TNC's is a good intermediate step.

LAXBUR · Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:17 pm

No doubt LAX is a difficult animal to tame, but I feel like LAWA and the city aren’t particularly great at traffic mitigation. Except for holidays the only busy times you see traffic cops is during the AM. They also need better signage. “Assigning” lanes to terminals would help. Instead you just have signs on the far left that direct to parking for flyovers to the terminals. Back ups occur often because someone in the far right lane realize they need to be in the far left lane. Of course, some of this is intentional with LA drivers thinking they’re sly when it probably didn’t help them and just caused a back up as they sit in the middle of a lane or two trying to get over.

The change in traffic patterns from the rideshare change will be negligible with this since rideshare will still be dropping off in the CTA. It would make sense to have pick up and drop off in the same place if one or the other is off site. The lot for the pickups looks painfully small and will just create new pinch points I’m guessing.

delimit · Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:21 pm

LAX can ban ride shares with little push back, because the shuttle can absorb the extra bodies. It could not ban private autos, as the volume of people to move would overwhelm their ability to move them from the drop off to the terminals.

747megatop · Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:28 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
747megatop wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

That would be great but
A) politically you will never get away with banning private cars, especially in LA. You might get away with charging them but banning is a non-starter.
B) All those time limitations are a pain to police. Either you do do something all the time so you can train the public or you don't do it.

My response to both points

A) Which is why i said it is stupid and not Math driven.
B) Very easy to police. When we could send man to the moon 50 years ago AND when we can photograph in accurate detail a car's license plate from space are you suggesting that technology can't be used to figure out how many people are sitting in an uber/lyft vehicle? Same technology kicks in and off based on times. If there is (political) will they can and will do it. Too many vested interests and lobbies though.

You, me and everyone knows it (MATH sense) that fewer the people in more number of vehicle means more congestion. More the people in lesser the number of vehicles means lesser congestion.

B) There really isn't that technology, at least in an economically feasible form. You would have to have (lots of) airport staff monitoring it.

Moving TNC's is a good intermediate step.

Wrong. The technology is there and it's cheap. It's a matter of tweaking it and retrofitting it a bit for the job at hand. https://observer.com/2015/06/first-look ... out-video/

usflyer msp · Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:36 pm

747megatop wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
747megatop wrote:
My response to both points

A) Which is why i said it is stupid and not Math driven.
B) Very easy to police. When we could send man to the moon 50 years ago AND when we can photograph in accurate detail a car's license plate from space are you suggesting that technology can't be used to figure out how many people are sitting in an uber/lyft vehicle? Same technology kicks in and off based on times. If there is (political) will they can and will do it. Too many vested interests and lobbies though.

You, me and everyone knows it (MATH sense) that fewer the people in more number of vehicle means more congestion. More the people in lesser the number of vehicles means lesser congestion.

B) There really isn't that technology, at least in an economically feasible form. You would have to have (lots of) airport staff monitoring it.

Moving TNC's is a good intermediate step.

Wrong. The technology is there and it's cheap. It's a matter of tweaking it and retrofitting it a bit for the job at hand. https://observer.com/2015/06/first-look ... out-video/

No. That technology counts cars not people. It cannot sense what or whom is in the car. The headline says people but means people on foot.

seat38a · Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:41 pm

747megatop wrote:
seat38a wrote:
Thank god. I knew there was a problem when I was stuck in the hotel shuttle and FlyAway and every single car around me had a uber or lyft decal on its windshield. I drive to the airport but park my car at one of the hotels and take their shuttle. And to all of you who think personal cars are the problem, when was the last time you've actually been to LAX and paid attention to the cars?? You'll find most of them are Uber/Lyfts and personal cars don't circle around waiting for a fare.

Also, let's be honest here. Many Uber and Lyft drivers are not very good drivers. I've lost count how many times I've been stuck behind a Uber or Lyft who can't figure out where they are going and just slowdown to a crawl or block traffic with no consideration for traffic behind them (Airports and just in the city.)

A few quick points -
1) LAX was a mess even 10 years ago when Uber/Lyft weren't there.
2) Uber/Lyft only made it worse with passengers moving from shared ride vans to Uber/Lyft in droves.
3) If you really see, Uber/Lyft ARE personal cars; people like you and me registering with Uber/Lyft and using our vehicles to ferry passengers and make money. So, the solution like i mentioned in my previous post is to ONLY allow shared ride Uber/Lyft & Taxis and enforce them to accept 2 (or even 3?) passengers at least [I am sure technology can be applied here to find a very innovative way of enforcing this in an automated fashion].

With personal vehicles off the horseshoe; that frees up the parking garages to be used for more ride share vans/shared uber/lyft pickups versus using the curbside. And of course, for those of us who are addicted to our personal vehicles we won't like it one bit!..but guess what during peak hour traffic we are going to get stuck on 405 or 105 getting to the airport AND definitely going to get stuck in the mess that LAX is right now so i don't think we have much of a choice (i almost ended up missing my 9 pm international flight last year..took 1 hour 15 mins to get to LAX from Irvine and then 35 mins to TBIT from the point where we exited 405).

The key here is to get more number of people into vehicles entering and exiting the airport roadway.

Not going to happen. And any variation of it won't happen until the people mover and Crenshaw Line is up and running. Uber Pool And Lyft's version of it is a choice not a requirement and matching people up who are going the same direction would probably work short distances to nearby hotels or rental car but more problematic going farther away without sacrificing time. Airport shuttle companies like Super Shuttle, already offer shared rides for longer distances with pickup times about 4+ hours before ones flight time is a nonstarter for many including myself.

Whether Uber drives you to the curb or your friend or spouse drops you off at the curb, whats the difference other than paying $75 dollars oneway to Uber vs a favor from friends and family?? Forcing people to pay to get to the airport isn't going to go down well.

DoctorVenkman · Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:34 pm

For everyone comparing the traffic now to how it was 10-15 years ago before Uber and Lyft, it's important to remember passenger volume is way up. Here are some select dates and passenger numbers for LAX:

2000: 67,303,182 (pre-9/11 peak)
2013: 66,667,619 (year that Uber and Lyft started to get main-stream popularity)
2018: 87,534,384

So there are approximately 20 million more passengers flying through LAX every year than there were in the pre-9/11 era. I'm guessing that is a much larger contributor to traffic in the loop than Uber and Lyft.

LAXdenizen · Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:50 pm

747-600X wrote:
Sorry, but what's the point of a CURB in the first place if not to GET PICKED UP? I didn't fly there to walk to my final destination. Does it matter whether I'm being picked up by family or friends or a rideshare? What choices am I going to have left? I mean, what vehicles are *supposed* to use the roadway?

I agree with you on the above.

However, please keep in mind that the inclusion of a curb does not mean "anything goes." While the LAX horseshoe is still technically a road like any other in the City of Los Angeles, LAWA is slowly moving away from the horseshoe public road. Offsite satellite parking, drop-off/ pick-up, light rail, rental cars etc. are shifting the burden to alleviate internal congestion and make LAX easier to police.

It'll be a slow process - and inconvenient in the short term - but LAX needs to evolve and this is happening now.

ER757 · Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:57 pm

At SEA, rideshares are in the parking garage (level 3) - you exit the terminal and go across the skybridge. It works well

thekorean · Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:10 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
The problem is the absence of high quality public transport. Where are the state-of-the-art subway lines running directly under the main concourses of US airports with station embarkation within steps of check-in? Go to say e.g. AMS and look how it is done.

LAX is building a people mover that will connect to a light rail station. But the problem is that light rail line doesn’t go directly to downtown LA.

cynlb · Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:12 pm

Good news! Just announced there will be food trucks at the new pickup lot -
https://youtu.be/nsHWA1grLx0

seat38a · Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:59 pm

Below is how Boston Logan does it. I really liked it vs the total CF I dealt with at EWR a month earlier. EWR has a similar system to LAX's current system and its a complete CF x 10.

DTWLAX · Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:59 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Why are major airports in major cities like LAX, JFK, and LGA in such a dilapidated state? Why have they waited so long to make improvements? Cities like Atlanta, Denver, and Orlando figured out better terminal designs decades ago.

Have you looked at the amount of open space there is in and around ATL, DEN and MCO? Compare that with the open space in and around LAX, JFK and LGA.

DTWLAX · Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:02 am

B747forever wrote:
Here you go

https://3rxg9qea18zhtl6s2u8jammft-wpeng ... visory.pdf

So now they are planning to clog the upper level even more with hotel and parking shuttles? The upper level has less lanes than the lower level.

DTWLAX · Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:05 am

seat38a wrote:
Below is how Boston Logan does it. I really liked it vs the total CF I dealt with at EWR a month earlier. EWR has a similar system to LAX's current system and its a complete CF x 10.

LAS has a similar system for the rideshares but LAX simply does not have the space to do that.

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