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lightmac
Topic Author
Posts: 117
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No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:02 am

I noticed that if you fly domestically in Germany (other countries as well, probably?) and you do not check-in hold luggage, your ID will never be checked if you check-in online. The gate agent also does not check IDs and you can board the plane without having interacted with a single employee of the respective airline (since ground handling is out-sourced and they do not check IDs either). So, the airline, in this case Eurowings, has no way of knowing who is on their plane. This is not legal, is it? In case of a crash for example, they need to know who is onboard, no? I have noticed that if your child looks young (but is over 12), you can book a children's ticket for them and they will pass even if they are over 12 years of age, because IDs simply are not checked.
 
Jonne1184
Posts: 26
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:06 am

You can also fly to other EU countries and never be checked, but why not? Depending on your ticket, you do not need to show an ID for traveling with the train either, but you need to have one with you anyway.
 
kanye
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:32 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:16 am

They have your name on the booking in case of a crash. No need to check ID.
When it comes to discounted youth ticket I know at least the gate agent in SAS tells people to come and validate their age. Those tickets are up to 26 years old so would be easy to cheat otherwise.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2556
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:18 am

It also depends on the airline involved. Some of the LCCs do check ID at the gate but the reason is revenue protection, preventing tickets booked in one name being used by someone else. Legacy airlines are much more likely to allow travel on domestic or intra-Schengen flights without ID checks at the gate. Eurowings presumably follows the policy of parent Lufthansa. But in Greece there are ID checks on domestics and intra-Schengen flights at the gate, as a government requirement, specifically as a way of validating the manifest, rather than security.
 
IWMBH
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:19 am

I've travelled multiple times within Europe and they never checked my ID. Its just like flying within the US. There is simply no need because there is no border control due to the Schengen agreement.
 
LGAviation
Posts: 870
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:21 am

Long story short, it is legal.

And it happens all the time on Euro flights and if you connect intl-to-intl depending on the destination and it’s pre-departure check requirements it might happen too.

In Germany, there is no statutory requirement to check for IDs other than for immigration reasons which happens on non-Schengen flights. Some airlines always require IDs like Ryanair and check at boarding while most now require IDs to check bags at non-automated kiosks.

I’m not going to get into the merits of ID checks but with regards to your example of the 12 yr old child, it’s ultimately not the government’s job to make sure the airline gets its revenue.

Unpopular opinion: an intra-EU flight is ultimately not that much different from a train or a bus. On neither of those modes of transportation do we check IDs. And both could have accidents or minors sneaking in (TSA curiously also regularly does not demand IDs from accompanied minors). If you want to lose short haul passengers in Europe, be sure to add unnecessary ID checks so flights are on some routes even less competitive with trains.
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Fuling
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:22 am

Australia is the same. A few years ago, a show called Chasers War On Everything boarded Virgin Blue flights with the names Terry Wrist and Al Kyder even.

https://youtu.be/4wK_yQ6p8hU
 
jghealey
Posts: 228
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:28 am

Not just Germany. I've had it in the UK as well
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:33 am

Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.

Personally, I think that this should stop immediately and that every ID needs to be checked, as required.
Ryanair says that they can get fined for 5000 Euro's if a matching document isn't checkes at boarding.
I don't know the exact European law mandating this but I believe that it exists.

I've seen this happen with Easyjet in Amsterdam, Eurowings everywhere and Brussels Airlines.
It's unbelievable that Belgians are so easy-going despite that their airport was hit by terrorists just a few years ago.
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.

In addition, armed terrorists can now easily get airside by dropping a few unarmed security people if they try to get in the way because of the electronic boarding pass scanners.
What the f*** is wrong with the airport and airline policy makers allowing this.
 
afgeneral
Posts: 133
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:44 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.

Personally, I think that this should stop immediately and that every ID needs to be checked, as required.
Ryanair says that they can get fined for 5000 Euro's if a matching document isn't checkes at boarding.
I don't know the exact European law mandating this but I believe that it exists.

I've seen this happen with Easyjet in Amsterdam, Eurowings everywhere and Brussels Airlines.
It's unbelievable that Belgians are so easy-going despite that their airport was hit by terrorists just a few years ago.
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.

In addition, armed terrorists can now easily get airside by dropping a few unarmed security people if they try to get in the way because of the electronic boarding pass scanners.
What the f*** is wrong with the airport and airline policy makers allowing this.


Oh calm down.

You stop the bad guys at the OUTSIDE borders of Schengen. Inside is all about free and easy movement. If they are already inside Schengen you have already failed.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:45 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
In addition, armed terrorists can now easily get airside by dropping a few unarmed security people if they try to get in the way because of the electronic boarding pass scanners.
What the f*** is wrong with the airport and airline policy makers allowing this.


Unfortunately it'll take a major incident for the powers that be to see the light.

As it always does.
Vahroone
 
tommy1808
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:46 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.


You can fake a convincing enough ID card at home and as incompetent as terrorists usually are, even they can do it.

Personally, I think that this should stop immediately and that every ID needs to be checked, as required.


why? There are no "no-fly lists" here, so any terrorist can just buy a ticket with whatever name he has on his ID/Passport...

Ryanair says that they can get fined for 5000 Euro's if a matching document isn't checkes at boarding.
I don't know the exact European law mandating this but I believe that it exists.


Ryanair is either lying, or you misunderstood what they said. They will be fined if they fly someone to the UK that can´t legally enter the UK.

Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.


on flights to the UK perhaps....

In addition, armed terrorists can now easily get airside by dropping a few unarmed security people if they try to get in the way because of the electronic boarding pass scanners.


because having a boarding pass gives you a "no need to x-ray your bag or walk you through a metal detector" pass?

What the f*** is wrong with the airport policy makers allowing this.


They looked at the possible implications, understand that the only real problem is from an airline revenue perspective, and hence not a problem they need to care about.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
VSMUT
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:47 am

Jonne1184 wrote:
you do not need to show an ID for traveling with the train either, but you need to have one with you anyway.


What country do you live in where ID is mandatory for train travel?
 
Blotto
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:49 am

If there is no legal requirement, the quicker boarding process will always outweigh the risk involved with another person flying on the ticket. There is simply nothing to gain in checking the ID for the airline.
And since it adds nothing to security, some sane countries will not force that ID check.
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...
 
tommy1808
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:51 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
In addition, armed terrorists can now easily get airside by dropping a few unarmed security people if they try to get in the way because of the electronic boarding pass scanners.
What the f*** is wrong with the airport and airline policy makers allowing this.


Unfortunately it'll take a major incident for the powers that be to see the light.

As it always does.


please check the history of airline/air travel related terrorism. Maybe you will realize that authorities in Europe probably have close to as much experience with it as the rest of the world combined.

"Armed terrorists" can get just as easily airside with a fake name on their boarding pass as with their real name: only if they fight their way there.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Jonne1184
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:57 am

VSMUT wrote:
Jonne1184 wrote:
you do not need to show an ID for traveling with the train either, but you need to have one with you anyway.


What country do you live in where ID is mandatory for train travel?


Should have worded that a bit better, if you travel cross border in the EU, you need to have an ID with you, but most of the times not show it.
 
tommy1808
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:01 am

Jonne1184 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Jonne1184 wrote:
you do not need to show an ID for traveling with the train either, but you need to have one with you anyway.


What country do you live in where ID is mandatory for train travel?


Should have worded that a bit better, if you travel cross border in the EU, you need to have an ID with you, but most of the times not show it.


The rail company however doesn't care more than airport or airline though....

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
kimimm19
Posts: 418
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:03 am

One of two things that the US does a bit better than other parts of the world.

They check IDs before security and you need to take your shoes off unless you pay for the privilege of lesser security because of a ten minute interview.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:15 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.



Terrorist have to go through scanners and x-rays in every airport security checkpoint as every other pax does.

Fuigitives can drive or take any type of ground public transportation within the Schengen space without going through any ID check, you can like it or not but it's the way Schengen works.

Blotto wrote:
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...


My experience is that ID's are checked in Spain more than every other EU country I regularly fly to but not 100% of the times.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I've seen this happen with Easyjet in Amsterdam, Eurowings everywhere and Brussels Airlines.
It's unbelievable that Belgians are so easy-going despite that their airport was hit by terrorists just a few years ago.
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.


If my memory doesn't let me down, terrorist attacks at BRU were in the check-in area, two bombers detoneted there. ID checks would've prevented that? don't think so.

I have boarded KL in AMS with and without ID check, not that strict as you say.
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Arion640
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:15 am

Fuling wrote:
Australia is the same. A few years ago, a show called Chasers War On Everything boarded Virgin Blue flights with the names Terry Wrist and Al Kyder even.

https://youtu.be/4wK_yQ6p8hU


As is new zealand.
 
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Aquila3
Posts: 561
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:18 am

IWMBH wrote:
I've travelled multiple times within Europe and they never checked my ID. Its just like flying within the US. There is simply no need because there is no border control due to the Schengen agreement.

There are funnier things happening.
For example, if you travel between Austria an Italy (both long time Schengen countries), you are NEVER asked the ID outbound and ALWAYS inbound.
I have done it at least a a dozen of times, and I am sure it was always the same, at least with Austrian, but i think with Wizz and Level as well. Driving licenses not admitted, BTW.
I do not know it it is an Italian Police requirement (in Italy you better have always an ID in your pocket, wherever you go ) or an Austrian immigration requirement , but for MXP-VIE you do need a state issued ID or a passport. This creates some troubles especially with Austrian citizens, that are less used to carry an ID (even if it is available) and normally use the passport when needed. But if did not have it outbound, then you will find out too late when returning.
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VSMUT
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:18 am

kimimm19 wrote:
One of two things that the US does a bit better than other parts of the world.

They check IDs before security and you need to take your shoes off unless you pay for the privilege of lesser security because of a ten minute interview.


And how exactly does that make the US better? Last I checked, US travellers can show a plethora of ID cards, including easily faked ones.

And shoes off, really? How does that improve anything?
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:19 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.



Terrorist have to go through scanners and x-rays in every airport security checkpoint as every other pax does.

Fuigitives can drive or take any type of ground public transportation within the Schengen space without going through any ID check, you can like it or not but it's the way Schengen works.

Blotto wrote:
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...


My experience is that ID's are checked in Spain more than every other EU country I regularly fly to but not 100% of the times.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I've seen this happen with Easyjet in Amsterdam, Eurowings everywhere and Brussels Airlines.
It's unbelievable that Belgians are so easy-going despite that their airport was hit by terrorists just a few years ago.
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.


If my memory doesn't let me down, terrorist attacks at BRU were in the check-in area, two bombers detoneted there. ID checks would've prevented that? don't think so.

I have boarded KL in AMS with and without ID check, not that strict as you say.


Yes, BRU was in the check-in area.
You'd rather welcome them airside?
Give me a break.
 
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OA940
Posts: 1986
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:23 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.

Personally, I think that this should stop immediately and that every ID needs to be checked, as required.
Ryanair says that they can get fined for 5000 Euro's if a matching document isn't checkes at boarding.
I don't know the exact European law mandating this but I believe that it exists.

I've seen this happen with Easyjet in Amsterdam, Eurowings everywhere and Brussels Airlines.
It's unbelievable that Belgians are so easy-going despite that their airport was hit by terrorists just a few years ago.
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.

In addition, armed terrorists can now easily get airside by dropping a few unarmed security people if they try to get in the way because of the electronic boarding pass scanners.
What the f*** is wrong with the airport and airline policy makers allowing this.


OK calm down buddy with your nightmare scenarios. Domestic flights everywhere in the world have similar policies and nothing has happened. Also, idk where you live but I really wanna see armed terrorists killing airport staff and going through security with their weapons successfully, and if you believe that's actually a possibility then maybe you should consider moving...

Also, regarding Belgians being ''easy-going'': First, the bombers at BRU detonated their devices before security, so they didn't get scanned. Are you suggesting we should fortify every corner of every airport because of that? Also, their ''easy-going'' methods have had the exact same results as countries with stricter security measures such as the US or Israel (let's not even mention all the reports that show how the TSA misses a majority of weapons), so I don't see the need to make security that much tighter since the threat isn't there. I would assume the people who get paid to design airports and everyone involved in the process is much better informed than you - and any one of us for that matter - on how security should look like.
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tommy1808
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:23 am

VSMUT wrote:
How does that improve anything?


makes people with unreasonable fears feel safer without being safer..... plenty of people see an improvement in feel good measures....

If agencies always did what worked and stopped doing what doesn´t we probably would have gotten rid of armored cockpit doors by now......

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:26 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.



Terrorist have to go through scanners and x-rays in every airport security checkpoint as every other pax does.

Fuigitives can drive or take any type of ground public transportation within the Schengen space without going through any ID check, you can like it or not but it's the way Schengen works.

Blotto wrote:
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...


My experience is that ID's are checked in Spain more than every other EU country I regularly fly to but not 100% of the times.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I've seen this happen with Easyjet in Amsterdam, Eurowings everywhere and Brussels Airlines.
It's unbelievable that Belgians are so easy-going despite that their airport was hit by terrorists just a few years ago.
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.


If my memory doesn't let me down, terrorist attacks at BRU were in the check-in area, two bombers detoneted there. ID checks would've prevented that? don't think so.

I have boarded KL in AMS with and without ID check, not that strict as you say.


Yes, BRU was in the check-in area.
You'd rather welcome them airside?
Give me a break.


since this seems to confuse you let me make this perfectly clear:

Not having your ID checked does not mean that you are not going to a metal detector/scanner, nor that your bags don´t get x-rayed. Your ID is completely irrelevant to the security of airside spaces.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:28 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.



Terrorist have to go through scanners and x-rays in every airport security checkpoint as every other pax does.

Fuigitives can drive or take any type of ground public transportation within the Schengen space without going through any ID check, you can like it or not but it's the way Schengen works.

Blotto wrote:
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...


My experience is that ID's are checked in Spain more than every other EU country I regularly fly to but not 100% of the times.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I've seen this happen with Easyjet in Amsterdam, Eurowings everywhere and Brussels Airlines.
It's unbelievable that Belgians are so easy-going despite that their airport was hit by terrorists just a few years ago.
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.


If my memory doesn't let me down, terrorist attacks at BRU were in the check-in area, two bombers detoneted there. ID checks would've prevented that? don't think so.

I have boarded KL in AMS with and without ID check, not that strict as you say.


An oxygen bottle can be used as a bomb too (too much information?), fire extinguishers can be launched as missiles.
You can stab people with ceramic knives.
Or a terrorist can launch a fuel truck into an A380 that just completed boarding.
Did you think that restaurants airside are slicing their meats and sushi with plastic knives?

Need more inspiration?
Plenty of weapons to be found airside or can be smuggled airside.

Everyone already forgot that A321 (Metrojet) that exploded due to a bomb hidden by ground personnel?

Get the ID checks back on, they are mandated by airlines, just follow the rules.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4101
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:30 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.



Terrorist have to go through scanners and x-rays in every airport security checkpoint as every other pax does.

Fuigitives can drive or take any type of ground public transportation within the Schengen space without going through any ID check, you can like it or not but it's the way Schengen works.

Blotto wrote:
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...


My experience is that ID's are checked in Spain more than every other EU country I regularly fly to but not 100% of the times.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I've seen this happen with Easyjet in Amsterdam, Eurowings everywhere and Brussels Airlines.
It's unbelievable that Belgians are so easy-going despite that their airport was hit by terrorists just a few years ago.
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.


If my memory doesn't let me down, terrorist attacks at BRU were in the check-in area, two bombers detoneted there. ID checks would've prevented that? don't think so.

I have boarded KL in AMS with and without ID check, not that strict as you say.


An oxygen bottle can be used as a bomb too (too much information?), fire extinguishers can be launched as missiles.
You can stab people with ceramic knives.

Need more inspiration?

Everyone already forgot that A321 (Metrojet) that exploded due to a bomb hidden by ground personnel?

Get the ID checks back on, they are mandated by airlines, just follow the rules.


All of that can be done by people with valid IDs as well.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12736
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:31 am

OA940 wrote:
Are you suggesting we should fortify every corner of every airport because of that? Also, their ''easy-going'' methods have had the exact same results as countries with stricter security measures such as the US or Israel (let's not even mention all the reports that show how the TSA misses a majority of weapons), so I don't see the need to make security that much tighter since the threat isn't there..


historically terrorists like to blow up checkpoints. They are good targets. I am actually quite surprised that no one yet has used the scanner at the checkpoint as source of shrapnel and pack more explosives instead of nails and screws.....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:36 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Yeah and then terrorists or fugitives are going to board under John Smith names and there is no way of knowing who they really are.



Terrorist have to go through scanners and x-rays in every airport security checkpoint as every other pax does.

Fuigitives can drive or take any type of ground public transportation within the Schengen space without going through any ID check, you can like it or not but it's the way Schengen works.

Blotto wrote:
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...


My experience is that ID's are checked in Spain more than every other EU country I regularly fly to but not 100% of the times.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I've seen this happen with Easyjet in Amsterdam, Eurowings everywhere and Brussels Airlines.
It's unbelievable that Belgians are so easy-going despite that their airport was hit by terrorists just a few years ago.
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.


If my memory doesn't let me down, terrorist attacks at BRU were in the check-in area, two bombers detoneted there. ID checks would've prevented that? don't think so.

I have boarded KL in AMS with and without ID check, not that strict as you say.


An oxygen bottle can be used as a bomb too (too much information?), fire extinguishers can be launched as missiles.
You can stab people with ceramic knives.
Or a terrorist can launch a fuel truck into an A380 that just completed boarding.
Did you think that restaurants airside are slicing their meats and sushi with plastic knives?

Need more inspiration?
Plenty of weapons to be found airside or can be smuggled airside.

Everyone already forgot that A321 (Metrojet) that exploded due to a bomb hidden by ground personnel?

Get the ID checks back on, they are mandated by airlines, just follow the rules.


None of that would have been prevented by ID checks. In fact you just made a perfectly good argument how ID checks are useless from a security standpoint.

You can bring down an airliners with a thermometer........

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
eamondzhang
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Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:39 am

VSMUT wrote:
Jonne1184 wrote:
you do not need to show an ID for traveling with the train either, but you need to have one with you anyway.


What country do you live in where ID is mandatory for train travel?

China as you can't even buy a ticket without IDs.

Michael
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:45 am

VSMUT wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:

Terrorist have to go through scanners and x-rays in every airport security checkpoint as every other pax does.

Fuigitives can drive or take any type of ground public transportation within the Schengen space without going through any ID check, you can like it or not but it's the way Schengen works.



My experience is that ID's are checked in Spain more than every other EU country I regularly fly to but not 100% of the times.



If my memory doesn't let me down, terrorist attacks at BRU were in the check-in area, two bombers detoneted there. ID checks would've prevented that? don't think so.

I have boarded KL in AMS with and without ID check, not that strict as you say.


An oxygen bottle can be used as a bomb too (too much information?), fire extinguishers can be launched as missiles.
You can stab people with ceramic knives.

Need more inspiration?

Everyone already forgot that A321 (Metrojet) that exploded due to a bomb hidden by ground personnel?

Get the ID checks back on, they are mandated by airlines, just follow the rules.


All of that can be done by people with valid IDs as well.


So you'd rather be sat next to a wanted serial killer, a killer who escaped from a psychiatric institution or a wanted ISIS terrorist who can strike at any time, rather than have the gate agent check your ID?

In aviation, we don't take chances.

Gate agents should be trained to recognise a fake passport.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:52 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:

Terrorist have to go through scanners and x-rays in every airport security checkpoint as every other pax does.

Fuigitives can drive or take any type of ground public transportation within the Schengen space without going through any ID check, you can like it or not but it's the way Schengen works.



My experience is that ID's are checked in Spain more than every other EU country I regularly fly to but not 100% of the times.



If my memory doesn't let me down, terrorist attacks at BRU were in the check-in area, two bombers detoneted there. ID checks would've prevented that? don't think so.

I have boarded KL in AMS with and without ID check, not that strict as you say.


An oxygen bottle can be used as a bomb too (too much information?), fire extinguishers can be launched as missiles.
You can stab people with ceramic knives.
Or a terrorist can launch a fuel truck into an A380 that just completed boarding.
Did you think that restaurants airside are slicing their meats and sushi with plastic knives?

Need more inspiration?
Plenty of weapons to be found airside or can be smuggled airside.

Everyone already forgot that A321 (Metrojet) that exploded due to a bomb hidden by ground personnel?

Get the ID checks back on, they are mandated by airlines, just follow the rules.


None of that would have been prevented by ID checks. In fact you just made a perfectly good argument how ID checks are useless from a security standpoint.

You can bring down an airliners with a thermometer........

best regards
Thomas


If the ID check is omitted, might as well omit the security check.

I'd argue that intelligence is a stronger weapon than a xray check.

So imagine that the guy in the below video was a ISIS terrorist.
By the way, judging by the scenery, it looks like he flew through Brussels.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLSbI2oi7o
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12736
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:00 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

An oxygen bottle can be used as a bomb too (too much information?), fire extinguishers can be launched as missiles.
You can stab people with ceramic knives.

Need more inspiration?

Everyone already forgot that A321 (Metrojet) that exploded due to a bomb hidden by ground personnel?

Get the ID checks back on, they are mandated by airlines, just follow the rules.


All of that can be done by people with valid IDs as well.


So you'd rather be sat next to a wanted serial killer, a killer who escaped from a psychiatric institution or a wanted ISIS terrorist who can strike at any time, rather than have the gate agent check your ID? .


They can all board an aircraft perfectly well with their ID, even if they are escaped serial killers or wanted ISIS terrorists. The check is just name on ID vs. Name on Boarding pass and absolutely nothing prevents them from buying a ticket.
And if you think Gate agents can check for fake passports you are delusional, have you ever seen border agents check for fake IDs?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4101
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:03 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
So you'd rather be sat next to a wanted serial killer, a killer who escaped from a psychiatric institution or a wanted ISIS terrorist who can strike at any time, rather than have the gate agent check your ID?


1. The chances that anybody wanted and on the run is going to take any chances traveling by plane is minute. They will be passing a million facial recognition cameras along the way. If you didn't notice yet, German airports also tend to be full of wanted posters.

2. The chances that they would commit any crime while on the plane are likewise non-existent.

3. Your wanted escaped psychiatric serial killers would have to get to the airport in the first place. This means driving in a wanted car past a ton of license plate recognition cameras, or taking the train or bus.

4. They still have to pass through security.

5. Your ID check assumes that they even appear as wanted in a database.

6. And if all that fails, a fake ID card is all they require to get onto a plane in your dream world.


Waterbomber2 wrote:
Gate agents should be trained to recognise a fake passport.


No they shouldn't.
 
pressclub
Posts: 779
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:05 am

Waterbomber, your info is not correct. There is an ID card / passenger match at the gate. This procedure has been reinstated after the terrorism attacks on the demand of the Minister of Interior Affairs. As a consequence, automated boarding is no longer possible at Brussels Airport.

By purpose I write ID Card / Passenger 'match' as the gate agents have obviously no other duties and for example no access to police/migration office data files
Last edited by pressclub on Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
qm001
Posts: 336
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:25 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:05 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
In aviation, we don't take chances.


As much as I would like to agree with you, frankly, between a certain Airframe manufacturer, and some airlines, there are WAY too many chances taken these days. Aviation is no longer the bastion of over cautiousness that it once was, and yet, safer than ever.

The bottom line, is that if a person with dubious intentions wants to get through any security, they will get through. No TSA checkpoint is ever going to stop them.

So whilst it is always good to know who is on board the aircraft, the security nightmare we all go through, is ultimately not really to keep passengers safe, but rather to give them the illusion that they are safe, and that everything is being done to keep them safe. If they knew the reality of how many liquids got through, and how many security breaches there were below wing, no one would ever put up with paying for and undergoing all these ridiculous checks, usually carried out by power tripping half wits, intent on finding a problem, where there really isn't one.
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12736
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:05 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

An oxygen bottle can be used as a bomb too (too much information?), fire extinguishers can be launched as missiles.
You can stab people with ceramic knives.
Or a terrorist can launch a fuel truck into an A380 that just completed boarding.
Did you think that restaurants airside are slicing their meats and sushi with plastic knives?

Need more inspiration?
Plenty of weapons to be found airside or can be smuggled airside.

Everyone already forgot that A321 (Metrojet) that exploded due to a bomb hidden by ground personnel?

Get the ID checks back on, they are mandated by airlines, just follow the rules.


None of that would have been prevented by ID checks. In fact you just made a perfectly good argument how ID checks are useless from a security standpoint.

You can bring down an airliners with a thermometer........

best regards
Thomas


If the ID check is omitted, might as well omit the security check.


Well, you are simply wrong, and obviously have a very flawed understanding of what an ID check is and what it could in principle accomplish. Absolutely nothing but making sure that the name on the Boarding Pass and the name on the ID are the same. That is it. It does not in any way prevent, impede or even make it difficult for terrorists or other criminals to get to the air side of an airport, because they can simply buy a ticket in their name.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:10 am

Blotto wrote:
If there is no legal requirement, the quicker boarding process will always outweigh the risk involved with another person flying on the ticket. There is simply nothing to gain in checking the ID for the airline.
And since it adds nothing to security, some sane countries will not force that ID check.
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...


Ryanair certainly seems to manage well despite their very strict ID check policy. Checking an ID really doesn't take that long so it's BS.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12736
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:14 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Blotto wrote:
If there is no legal requirement, the quicker boarding process will always outweigh the risk involved with another person flying on the ticket. There is simply nothing to gain in checking the ID for the airline.
And since it adds nothing to security, some sane countries will not force that ID check.
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...


Ryanair certainly seems to manage well despite their very strict ID check policy. Checking an ID really doesn't take that long so it's BS.


you want them to spot fake IDs, not just check names vs. Boarding pass as they do today, remember? That would mean boarding a full 738 would take some 60 to 90 Minutes for one gate agent....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:20 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

None of that would have been prevented by ID checks. In fact you just made a perfectly good argument how ID checks are useless from a security standpoint.

You can bring down an airliners with a thermometer........

best regards
Thomas


If the ID check is omitted, might as well omit the security check.


Well, you are simply wrong, and obviously have a very flawed understanding of what an ID check is and what it could in principle accomplish. Absolutely nothing but making sure that the name on the Boarding Pass and the name on the ID are the same. That is it. It does not in any way prevent, impede or even make it difficult for terrorists or other criminals to get to the air side of an airport, because they can simply buy a ticket in their name.

best regards
Thomas


So you think that government police agencies don't scan passenger manifests? Believe me, they do and hundreds of people are being picked up across Europe on a daily basis, thanks to professionals who follow the norms of their jobs.
The omitted passport check is an exception rather than a rule. In Italy, it's rather impossible and gate agents are often trained to recognise fakes.

The LH Group stands out in my opinion, so if you want to save yourself the 5 second hassle, you can travel with them.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:26 am

pressclub wrote:
Waterbomber, your info is not correct. There is an ID card / passenger match at the gate. This procedure has been reinstated after the terrorism attacks on the demand of the Minister of Interior Affairs. As a consequence, automated boarding is no longer possible at Brussels Airport.

By purpose I write ID Card / Passenger 'match' as the gate agents have obviously no other duties and for example no access to police/migration office data files


Yes there is a procedure that is not being followed.
The gate agents aren't even opening passports that are presented to them.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12736
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:28 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
So you think that government police agencies don't scan passenger manifests? Believe me.


In case you haven´t noticed, and apparently you are not aware of this, Names are not really unique.

thanks to professionals who follow the norms of their jobs.


yeah, the professionals that have decided ID checks are not needed accomplish that.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:47 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Blotto wrote:
If there is no legal requirement, the quicker boarding process will always outweigh the risk involved with another person flying on the ticket. There is simply nothing to gain in checking the ID for the airline.
And since it adds nothing to security, some sane countries will not force that ID check.
Fyi, it's not a Schengen-thing. Spain checks IDs just before boarding. I feel so much safer there...


Ryanair certainly seems to manage well despite their very strict ID check policy. Checking an ID really doesn't take that long so it's BS.


you want them to spot fake IDs, not just check names vs. Boarding pass as they do today, remember? That would mean boarding a full 738 would take some 60 to 90 Minutes for one gate agent....

best regards
Thomas


This is Turkish Airlines, watch from 35:00.
Guess what? Fake id spotted by gate agent.

https://youtu.be/pg_vBwV2EjU

Most countries are carrying this out as required, including spotting fake ID's.
Just because you don't know about it, it doesn't mean that airlines that are very loose should get a free pass.

I don't know what your suspicious motivation is for downplaying this very serious security problem.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12736
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:49 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

Ryanair certainly seems to manage well despite their very strict ID check policy. Checking an ID really doesn't take that long so it's BS.


you want them to spot fake IDs, not just check names vs. Boarding pass as they do today, remember? That would mean boarding a full 738 would take some 60 to 90 Minutes for one gate agent....

best regards
Thomas


This is Turkish Airlines, watch from 35:00.
Guess what? Fake id spotted by gate agent.

https://youtu.be/pg_vBwV2EjU


If the fake is bad enough it is easy of course.

Just because you don't know about it, it doesn't mean that airlines that are very loose shoukdbget a free pass


I used to work as cki/board agent and had the training. You can only ever hope to spot obviously fake, good fakes are challenging for the border people and they can take whatever time they need.

I don't know what your suspicious motivation is for underplaying this veru serious security problem.


The understanding hat it only is a feel good measure with no effect on aviation safety or security, that is why. Being scared of the lack of ID checks is identical to being scared of flying and has the same treatment, and there are professionals for that kind of problem. They don't work at airports.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
chonetsao
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:12 am

VSMUT wrote:
Jonne1184 wrote:
you do not need to show an ID for traveling with the train either, but you need to have one with you anyway.


What country do you live in where ID is mandatory for train travel?


China.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 961
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:13 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Ryanair, KLM and Alitalia are following strict ID checks.

Certainly not true for KLM. I usually board without showing any ID, not at check in and not at the gate.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
What the f*** is wrong with the airport and airline policy makers allowing this.

Nothing. Travellers within the Schengen area don’t have to show ID’s and that’s perfectly fine.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:20 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

None of that would have been prevented by ID checks. In fact you just made a perfectly good argument how ID checks are useless from a security standpoint.

You can bring down an airliners with a thermometer........

best regards
Thomas


If the ID check is omitted, might as well omit the security check.


Well, you are simply wrong, and obviously have a very flawed understanding of what an ID check is and what it could in principle accomplish. Absolutely nothing but making sure that the name on the Boarding Pass and the name on the ID are the same. That is it. It does not in any way prevent, impede or even make it difficult for terrorists or other criminals to get to the air side of an airport, because they can simply buy a ticket in their name.

best regards
Thomas


It is a method of deterrence to stop petty criminals gaming the system, while focus on the major criminals (those that can fake IDs) in the background screening. It simply is a resource re-balance. So gate agent check the ID to filter the petty criminals that have no resource to fake ID, to identify people smuggling (it does exist and often the gate agents are the heros to identify such activity). While the police force would go through manifest in the back rooms to identify possible people of interests.

And, with the ID check, as you said, the criminals are likely to fly under their name. Bingo! The invisible police in airport could easily track and identify the stupid criminals flying under the real name.

If anyone here does not understand why some countries require ID checks for domestic flight, they do not know how dangerous some other part of the world is.
 
User avatar
CrimsonNL
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:27 am

How accurate are these gate-ID checks anyway? At least here at my home base you'll most likely get an overworked, under payed agent that will have to check 180 ID's in less then 20 minutes. With different nationalities come a lot of names/spelling that might be complicated for the agent to read quickly. Then you still have to check validity and the picture etc etc..

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
User avatar
DexSwart
Posts: 748
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:08 am

Re: No ID check on (German) domestic flights

Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:45 am

I travel around Australia all the time without having an ID check done.

I hate to be that guy, but if someone really wanted to get on the flight, they could get on the flight.

I’ve never had concerns about the ID check, because it’s the security screening that should weed out any dangerous individuals.

QF can even send you an SMS to get checked in via text.

In South Africa, I didn’t get an ID check before boarding either.

I think a.net’s flair for the dramatic is taking off. (Pun intended). I just don’t see it as big of an issue.

A good fake ID, especially a foreign one could very well fool a gate agent.
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.

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