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Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:56 am
by seat1a
I love the names of these long routes (Fiesta, Kangaroo). More so is the routing of the QF Fiesta route:
SYD-NAN-PPT-ACA-MEX-NAS-BDA-LHR
Does anyone know what the aircraft type was? Comments on whether there was a big market for this route, in other words, was this the most direct way to LHR from SYD, or an alternative?

Also, if you know other route names from the 1950s, 60s, 70s, would kindly share? Thanks!

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:50 am
by cedarjet
Operated by B707. And as an alternative, the Kangaroo route was the quickest way to London. I think it was more about the en route stops.

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:30 am
by n729pa
Correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt this was operating in the 1970s, as Qantas were operating their new 747-238Bs into LHR then, from Nov 71. The 50s and 60s saw the Constellations and 707s (as cederjet mentions) operating an East and West bound service SYD - LHR.

It never ceases to amaze me, how we've got from these kind of multistop services, even to a lesser extent with the 747-238B/338s to the nonstop Perth or one stop Sydney flights we have today. I doesnt bother me to sit on a A380 for 22 hours but I often wonder what it must have been like in a smoke filled cabin, the only IFE would have been a book or talking to your neighbour (which i often do now)... but then times were very different then so the journey was something special or important, today we all do it whenever we want so to speak. I think I'd prefer to stick to my one stop A380, but it would be interesting to have tried one of these multistop flights in the day.

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:56 am
by Gemuser
n729pa wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt this was operating in the 1970s, as Qantas were operating their new 747-238Bs into LHR then, from Nov 71. The 50s and 60s saw the Constellations and 707s (as cederjet mentions) operating an East and West bound service SYD - LHR.

It never ceases to amaze me, how we've got from these kind of multistop services, even to a lesser extent with the 747-238B/338s to the nonstop Perth or one stop Sydney flights we have today. I doesnt bother me to sit on a A380 for 22 hours but I often wonder what it must have been like in a smoke filled cabin, the only IFE would have been a book or talking to your neighbour (which i often do now)... but then times were very different then so the journey was something special or important, today we all do it whenever we want so to speak. I think I'd prefer to stick to my one stop A380, but it would be interesting to have tried one of these multistop flights in the day.

QF operated B707s until 1979. They operated the Fiesta Route from 1964 [QF website], it does not give a end date but it could not be later than 1979 when they retired the last B707. I would guess about 1975 or so. The forth coming retirement of the B707 was given, at the time, as one of the reasons for ending the route.

My only international, long haul multistop was in 1974 with UTA SYD-AKL-PPT-LAX-PPT-PPG-NAN-NOU-SYD. DC-8 west of PPT, DC-10 east of there. Was an interesting exprience.

Gemuser

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:11 pm
by seat1a
Gemuser wrote:
n729pa wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt this was operating in the 1970s, as Qantas were operating their new 747-238Bs into LHR then, from Nov 71. The 50s and 60s saw the Constellations and 707s (as cederjet mentions) operating an East and West bound service SYD - LHR.

It never ceases to amaze me, how we've got from these kind of multistop services, even to a lesser extent with the 747-238B/338s to the nonstop Perth or one stop Sydney flights we have today. I doesnt bother me to sit on a A380 for 22 hours but I often wonder what it must have been like in a smoke filled cabin, the only IFE would have been a book or talking to your neighbour (which i often do now)... but then times were very different then so the journey was something special or important, today we all do it whenever we want so to speak. I think I'd prefer to stick to my one stop A380, but it would be interesting to have tried one of these multistop flights in the day.

QF operated B707s until 1979. They operated the Fiesta Route from 1964 [QF website], it does not give a end date but it could not be later than 1979 when they retired the last B707. I would guess about 1975 or so. The forth coming retirement of the B707 was given, at the time, as one of the reasons for ending the route.

My only international, long haul multistop was in 1974 with UTA SYD-AKL-PPT-LAX-PPT-PPG-NAN-NOU-SYD. DC-8 west of PPT, DC-10 east of there. Was an interesting exprience.

Gemuser


Thanks to you both for the great information. I tried the QF website for some information, so I'm curious how you found it! UTA had a lot of routes like this. I wonder if there's a business case to be made for a return of these routings, or a ROW service that if not daily, a few days a week.

Do you know if NZ still has a 'Coral Route'?

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:04 pm
by Kiwiandrew
seat1a wrote:

Thanks to you both for the great information. I tried the QF website for some information, so I'm curious how you found it! UTA had a lot of routes like this. I wonder if there's a business case to be made for a return of these routings, or a ROW service that if not daily, a few days a week.

Do you know if NZ still has a 'Coral Route'?


NZ discontinued the Coral Route several years ago ( I don't recall exactly when, and the actual routing varied quite a bit over the decades).

Their only remaining multi-leg routes are : AKL-LAX-LHR ( With the LAX-LHR leg ceasing later this year); AKL-RAR-LAX; AKL-RAR-SYD ( though the through flight number is a technicality...nobody ( with the possible exception of an A.Netter) actually boards in Auckland and goes right through to SYD.. it doesn't even come up as an option when trying to book AKL-SYD (for good reason... to give it a North American context imagine AA offering a "through flight" JFK -CUN-YVR to pax wanting to fly JFK-YVR).

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:20 pm
by seat1a
Kiwiandrew wrote:
seat1a wrote:

Thanks to you both for the great information. I tried the QF website for some information, so I'm curious how you found it! UTA had a lot of routes like this. I wonder if there's a business case to be made for a return of these routings, or a ROW service that if not daily, a few days a week.

Do you know if NZ still has a 'Coral Route'?


NZ discontinued the Coral Route several years ago ( I don't recall exactly when, and the actual routing varied quite a bit over the decades).

Their only remaining multi-leg routes are : AKL-LAX-LHR ( With the LAX-LHR leg ceasing later this year); AKL-RAR-LAX; AKL-RAR-SYD ( though the through flight number is a technicality...nobody ( with the possible exception of an A.Netter) actually boards in Auckland and goes right through to SYD.. it doesn't even come up as an option when trying to book AKL-SYD (for good reason... to give it a North American context imagine AA offering a "through flight" JFK -CUN-YVR to pax wanting to fly JFK-YVR).


Here's something interesting, I just found a NZ timetable (in outstanding condition, btw) that I hadn't seen in a year or two; it's from Oct-Nov-Dec 1976. The timetable shows the 'Orient Route' (New Zealand-Australia-Singapore-Hong Kong-India-Middle East-Europe-UK), Trans Tasman (New Zealand-OZ), 'Coral Route' services (Australia-New Zealand-Pago Pago-Rorotonga-Papeete).

Any thoughts on discontinuing the LAX-LHR leg? More profitable routes elsewhere? Competition on the LAX-LHR route?

Thanks!

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:59 pm
by Kiwiandrew
seat1a wrote:

Here's something interesting, I just found a NZ timetable (in outstanding condition, btw) that I hadn't seen in a year or two; it's from Oct-Nov-Dec 1976. The timetable shows the 'Orient Route' (New Zealand-Australia-Singapore-Hong Kong-India-Middle East-Europe-UK), Trans Tasman (New Zealand-OZ), 'Coral Route' services (Australia-New Zealand-Pago Pago-Rorotonga-Papeete).

Any thoughts on discontinuing the LAX-LHR leg? More profitable routes elsewhere? Competition on the LAX-LHR route?

Thanks!


Normally I am reluctant to drag a thread way off topic.. but since it's your thread and you asked :-)

My understanding ( which could be incorrect) is that while LAX-LHR was for the most part ( marginally) profitable, it was regarded as 'stagnant'.

The point finally came where the opportunity cost of continuing it ( with a UK based cabin crew) versus pursuing new routes with growth potential could no longer be justified.

LAX-LHR has been 'stuck' at a daily 77W for over a decade. In contrast other routes started/restarted since then ( Taipei; Buenos Aires; Houston ; Chicago ; Seoul; and later this year Newark ) have all either experienced significant growth since (re)introduction, or have been identified as having significant growth potential ( Houston and Chicago both quickly exceeded the most optimistic expectations).

The market from New Zealand to UK/Europe has many competitors.. at least some of whom have no qualms about very deep discounting. A glance at a globe will show in terms of distance/overall flying time, a journey AKL-XXX-LHR is much the same whether XXX is Los Angeles; San Francisco; Vancouver; Tokyo; Seoul; Beijing; Shanghai; Guangzhou; Bangkok; Singapore; Kuala Lumpur; Dubai; or Doha. For a relatively small market those are a lot of options.

While on a sentimental level I'm sad to see LHR disappear from the NZ network, I believe it was a sensible decision.

TLDR version : NZ decided the aircraft could be better used elsewhere :-)

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:02 pm
by seat1a
Growth markets eventually plateau, perhaps that's what happened with LAX-LHR. From what I read last year, the flight was popular. I wonder if the Visa issue in the US was an issue, too.

Are you with NZ?

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:04 am
by n729pa
Gemuser wrote:
n729pa wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt this was operating in the 1970s, as Qantas were operating their new 747-238Bs into LHR then, from Nov 71. The 50s and 60s saw the Constellations and 707s (as cederjet mentions) operating an East and West bound service SYD - LHR.

It never ceases to amaze me, how we've got from these kind of multistop services, even to a lesser extent with the 747-238B/338s to the nonstop Perth or one stop Sydney flights we have today. I doesnt bother me to sit on a A380 for 22 hours but I often wonder what it must have been like in a smoke filled cabin, the only IFE would have been a book or talking to your neighbour (which i often do now)... but then times were very different then so the journey was something special or important, today we all do it whenever we want so to speak. I think I'd prefer to stick to my one stop A380, but it would be interesting to have tried one of these multistop flights in the day.

QF operated B707s until 1979. They operated the Fiesta Route from 1964 [QF website], it does not give a end date but it could not be later than 1979 when they retired the last B707. I would guess about 1975 or so. The forth coming retirement of the B707 was given, at the time, as one of the reasons for ending the route.

My only international, long haul multistop was in 1974 with UTA SYD-AKL-PPT-LAX-PPT-PPG-NAN-NOU-SYD. DC-8 west of PPT, DC-10 east of there. Was an interesting exprience.

Gemuser

The QF 707s were not coming to LHR in 1975. Qantas timetable effective 27th Oct 1975, only 747s QF2, 6 and 8 ....furthest East from Sydney was YVR and SFO, as the route had been terminated by then, at least.

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:53 am
by n729pa
Inaugural flight Sydney-Fiji-Tahiti-Mexico City-Nassau-Bermuda-London was on 26th November 1964, arrived in London on the 28th. Return leg left same day and included an additional in Acapulco after Mexico City.
Managed to find the two first day covers I've got for those flights, in among my Qantas collection.

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:37 am
by vhqpa
seat1a wrote:
Also, if you know other route names from the 1950s, 60s, 70s, would kindly share? Thanks!


Apart from the Fiesta route and famous Kangaroo route, a few others I know off hand from that time period.

Southern Cross route: Australia - Europe via North America.
Wallaby route: Australia - Southern Africa.

And some from later on.

Falcon route: Australia - Europe via Dubai. Used publicly for the launch of the QF/EK tie up in 2013, but I never heard it uses after that.

Quokka route: Perth - Europe nonstop. Not sure if QF has ever publicly used it, but I have heard/read it called as such. In any case I'm quite fond of the name.

My memory's a bit rusty but I also vaguely seeing a picture of a QF 707 With a sign above the air stairs commemorating the inaugural "Dragon route" Australia - Europe via Hong Kong. The rest of the routing must have been via Thailand/India then the usual Kangaroo routing. As I'm quite confident QF never flew to Europe via Alaska and Soviet airspace was off the table.

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:56 am
by Gemuser
n729pa wrote:
Inaugural flight Sydney-Fiji-Tahiti-Mexico City-Nassau-Bermuda-London was on 26th November 1964, arrived in London on the 28th. Return leg left same day and included an additional in Acapulco after Mexico City.
Managed to find the two first day covers I've got for those flights, in among my Qantas collection.

Acapulco was always served in both directions [irrops excepted].

Gemuser

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:21 am
by seat1a
vhqpa wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Also, if you know other route names from the 1950s, 60s, 70s, would kindly share? Thanks!


Apart from the Fiesta route and famous Kangaroo route, a few others I know off hand from that time period.

Southern Cross route: Australia - Europe via North America.
Wallaby route: Australia - Southern Africa.

And some from later on.

Falcon route: Australia - Europe via Dubai. Used publicly for the launch of the QF/EK tie up in 2013, but I never heard it uses after that.

Quokka route: Perth - Europe nonstop. Not sure if QF has ever publicly used it, but I have heard/read it called as such. In any case I'm quite fond of the name.

My memory's a bit rusty but I also vaguely seeing a picture of a QF 707 With a sign above the air stairs commemorating the inaugural "Dragon route" Australia - Europe via Hong Kong. The rest of the routing must have been via Thailand/India then the usual Kangaroo routing. As I'm quite confident QF never flew to Europe via Alaska and Soviet airspace was off the table.


Excellent, thank you. Would you know when South American services began? Any route name there?

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:04 am
by vhqpa
seat1a wrote:
vhqpa wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Also, if you know other route names from the 1950s, 60s, 70s, would kindly share? Thanks!


Apart from the Fiesta route and famous Kangaroo route, a few others I know off hand from that time period.

Southern Cross route: Australia - Europe via North America.
Wallaby route: Australia - Southern Africa.

And some from later on.

Falcon route: Australia - Europe via Dubai. Used publicly for the launch of the QF/EK tie up in 2013, but I never heard it uses after that.

Quokka route: Perth - Europe nonstop. Not sure if QF has ever publicly used it, but I have heard/read it called as such. In any case I'm quite fond of the name.

My memory's a bit rusty but I also vaguely seeing a picture of a QF 707 With a sign above the air stairs commemorating the inaugural "Dragon route" Australia - Europe via Hong Kong. The rest of the routing must have been via Thailand/India then the usual Kangaroo routing. As I'm quite confident QF never flew to Europe via Alaska and Soviet airspace was off the table.


Excellent, thank you. Would you know when South American services began? Any route name there?


As far as I know there wasn't any service to South America until 1998 when SYD-AKL-EZE was launched which ran until 2002. EZE was relaunched nonstop from SYD In 2008, again this was short lived and EZE was terminated for the second time in 2012 and replaced with the current SYD-SCL flight. I haven't heard of the route being named.

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:29 am
by n729pa
Gemuser wrote:
n729pa wrote:
Inaugural flight Sydney-Fiji-Tahiti-Mexico City-Nassau-Bermuda-London was on 26th November 1964, arrived in London on the 28th. Return leg left same day and included an additional in Acapulco after Mexico City.
Managed to find the two first day covers I've got for those flights, in among my Qantas collection.

Acapulco was always served in both directions [irrops excepted].

Gemuser

Interesting as Acapulco is only mentioned on the South bound flight. With Mexico City in there too, it's clearly more of a technical requirement. Maybe they found it became a frequent necessity so formally added it on the Northbound runs.

Do you know what the frequency of flights were out of interest?

I wonder how many crews were used throughout the journey?

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:59 am
by Gemuser
n729pa wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
n729pa wrote:
Inaugural flight Sydney-Fiji-Tahiti-Mexico City-Nassau-Bermuda-London was on 26th November 1964, arrived in London on the 28th. Return leg left same day and included an additional in Acapulco after Mexico City.
Managed to find the two first day covers I've got for those flights, in among my Qantas collection.

Acapulco was always served in both directions [irrops excepted].

Gemuser

Interesting as Acapulco is only mentioned on the South bound flight. With Mexico City in there too, it's clearly more of a technical requirement. Maybe they found it became a frequent necessity so formally added it on the Northbound runs.

Do you know what the frequency of flights were out of interest?

I wonder how many crews were used throughout the journey?

From memory it was between one a week to three a week, it may even once a fortnight in the early days but I am not sure.
Acuapulco was most definately there as a tech stop as the B707-138 did not have the range for MEX-Acuapulco given MEX's altitude but I believe QF stopped there in both directions for traffic purposes [what there was of it] from press reports during the period it operated.

I don't know how many crews were used but it must have been at least three, I'd suggest PPT & NAS as layover points. I do know from an acquance that it was popular with crews, a week or half a week layover in those places, why wouldn't it be popular?

Gemuser

Re: Qantas Fiesta Route in the 1970s.

Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 2:58 am
by monarols
Hi there. Just thought I would add. We flew this fiesta route on 13th Nov 1971 ex EGLL when we migrated out here. It was serviced on that day by VH-EAE (City of Brisbane). Boeing 707-338C. c/n 19625-693
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