lightmac
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Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:32 am

Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, the Lufthansa-Group should add new routes, likely
Amsterdam AMS, Barcelona BCN, Budapest BUD, Mailand MXP, Nizza NCE, Oslo OSL, Paris CDG,, Rom FCO and Stockholm ARN. These are destinations served from Hamburg by LH-Group and Berlin plays a similar role in LH-group.
Which other new route launches do you expect? Will Hongkong, Seoul or Tokyo ever happen? How about Chicago, Miami? Will Emirates finally get a Dubai-Route?
Atlanta would make sense and JFK. Shanghai? Thai to Bangkok?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:39 am

...you mean "if" the new Berlin airport opens then.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Noshow
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:43 am

They are not finished building it yet. They have not tested it all together. The building is not certified yet. Let them open it first.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:02 am

October, but which year?
 
fessor
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:14 am

TG Will propelfly not open to Berlin, if they wanted more german destinations the could have added them long ago
 
steman
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:17 am

I do not expect LH to launch new routes, not at first and especially no long haul routes. They have demonstrated quite clearly what they think of Berlin in general: it´s just a low yield destination better served by Eurowings. And the same Eurowings has only a small presence at TXL at the moment. BER will keep on having several flights per day to FRA and MUC but no direct LH long haul.
If I remember correnctly, in 2011/2012, shortly before BER was supposed to open, LH announced 36 new European routes out of Berlin. After the BER disaster, LH based some A319 in TXL to operate those routes, but rather quickly, those routes were passed on to Germanwings and then Eurowings and eventually most of them have been suspended. The problem is not the limited space and attractiveness of TXL but the market composition of Berlin, which is highly reliant on tourism and leisure traffic and with a small, albeit growing, business component.
I am sure other airlines will eventually open long haul connections to BER but not LH. Not for many years.
As for BER opening in October, this time it seems it will happen for real. T1 and T2 will open at the same time, while TXL will close a week later and SXF will be renamed BER T5.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:37 am

Why should Airlines open new routes just because a new Airport opens? The Airport will be new, but the city will still be the same as before. Berlin will continue to be a Destination, no Hub. I dont think Lufthansa will open a Hub there.

Of course things would be different if airberlin was still around, they would have used the new airport to further grow their Berlin Hub.
But I dont see why Airline XY should start a new flight to Berlin just because of a new Airport. They could have done it already, its not that Berlin was without an Airport before. Same for all the talking about Emirates canceling a German City to serve Berlin once the new Airport opens, why should they, they could have done it years ago already. To be precise since 2004 they had the Chance to add Berlin to their network, but they choosed Hamburg (Berlin was number 2 on the list, Stuttgart number 3). Since then they could have canceled Hamburg or another City and add Berlin.
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xwb777
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:04 am

Angelina Merkel has promised Emirates landing rights at the new airport once it opens. Lets wait and see.
 
xwb777
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:05 am

What if LH launches Berlin - Dubai flights. Air Berlin were doing good before the route was swapped to Abu Dhabi.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:53 am

xwb777 wrote:
What if LH launches Berlin - Dubai flights. Air Berlin were doing good before the route was swapped to Abu Dhabi.


I am pretty sure that this will not work out without a Hub at one end of the route -- unless Lufthansa flies an A320neo down there.
Only Emirates or ETIHAD can make a flight from Berlin to the UAE work IMO because they offer the connections required to fill the plane.

xwb777 wrote:
Angelina Merkel has promised Emirates landing rights at the new airport once it opens. Lets wait and see.


They promise a lot :D but I am very curious as well. Maybe she said "when the new Airport opens" because she knew the construction of that thing will be a never ending story. But now the time comes, another ocassion to see how much all the talking of politicians is worth.
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SCQ83
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:01 am

DLHAM wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Angelina Merkel has promised Emirates landing rights at the new airport once it opens. Lets wait and see.


They promise a lot :D but I am very curious as well. Maybe she said "when the new Airport opens" because she knew the construction of that thing will be a never ending story. But now the time comes, another ocassion to see how much all the talking of politicians is worth.


Angela, not Angelina :)

I think it makes sense. Once BER opens, the Berlin/Brandenburg/German government will have PR pressure to make it "a success". Imagine they close TXL, they open BER and in the first year of operations there is less traffic than at SXF+TXL combined and they don't get anything new that wasn't at the old airports. That would be a public failure and more people would question BER and wondered why TXL was closed. Getting new airlines like Emirates and destinations like Dubai would back the new airport.
 
steman
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:43 pm

I guess EK hasn´t dropped HAM in favor of TXL yet also because TXL can´t take an A380 on regular service and even the 77W has to park on remote stands. Plus even Terminal A in Tegel is really ugly, cramped, outdated. I guess EK has weighed all options and, in the light of much higher yields in HAM has decided that this works better for them.
However, the economy in Berlin is growing and BER will offer a much better experience than TXL and will be able to service a full A380 per day. But unless the bilateral changes, I don´t think EK will drop HAM in favor of BER.
 
lightmac
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:36 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Why should Airlines open new routes just because a new Airport opens? The Airport will be new, but the city will still be the same as before. Berlin will continue to be a Destination, no Hub. I dont think Lufthansa will open a Hub there.


Well, because the new airport has more capacity, of course!
 
889091
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:10 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
October, but which year?


I'll go one better....

October, but which decade? :lol:
 
mrgrtt123
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:10 am

You wouldn't find out unless it ready for the public.
 
lightmac
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:46 am

While this delay was long and terrible, inauguration delays for airports are nothing special, think of Vienna, Istanbul or even Doha, they all were delayed and then fine. Berlin's economy is finally growing and the traffic increases more then in say Frankfurt currently, so there is reason for optimism, no?
 
steman
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:09 am

lightmac wrote:
While this delay was long and terrible, inauguration delays for airports are nothing special, think of Vienna, Istanbul or even Doha, they all were delayed and then fine. Berlin's economy is finally growing and the traffic increases more then in say Frankfurt currently, so there is reason for optimism, no?


Yes, there is reason for a bit of optimism but do not expect a rush of new long haul services from, say, Summer 2021.
Maybe some Chinese carrier will open up new flights but, the lack of a local hubbing carrier to offer onward connections and the limited business appeal of the city, will limit the number of carriers willing to send a wide body to BER.
American carriers like DL and AA will resume their seasonal summer services, as will probably Rouge. Maybe Air Transat will come.
I wouldn´t expect anything from South America or Africa, although there might be interest to serve touristic caribbean destionations like Air Berlin used to do. Also nothing from India and nothing new from the Middle East, apart maybe some low cost service from FlyDubai or AirArabia. If there will be growth to South East Asia, it will be by the likes of Scoot or some of the new low cost long haul offsprings of legacy carriers.

Anyway, if things go according to the most recent version of the masterplan, BER is set to keep on expanding. After T1+T2 open in 2020 (if they open)
they will start working on T3/4, which will be a new building just east of T1, where now is the access road to the Terminal Complex and it will connect to the extensions of Nord and South Piers via long bridges.
Later, T1 will be expanded with a new T shaped pier extending from the middle of it towards the western apron.
T5, the current SXF, will also be subject to a complete modernization.

Airlines have already been allocated space in the new Terminals, with EasyJet, LH and most of the others going to T1, Eurowings and a couple others going to T2 (which is actually a new building just behind the north pier. The north pier has no jetbridges, making it a de facto low cost terminal) and Ryanair staying at SXF(T5).
 
max999
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:47 am

steman wrote:
lightmac wrote:

Airlines have already been allocated space in the new Terminals, with EasyJet, LH and most of the others going to T1, Eurowings and a couple others going to T2 (which is actually a new building just behind the north pier. The north pier has no jetbridges, making it a de facto low cost terminal) and Ryanair staying at SXF(T5).


Why would BER build a modern terminal pier with no jet bridges? Doesn't make any sense to me.

I also understand that Ryanair has complained they have to pay the same airport fees even though they are using the older SXF T5. While other airlines get to use the new T1 And T2 pay the same fees. I think Ryanair has a legitimate complaint. I'm not sure if the complaint was ever resolved.
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steman
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:30 am

max999 wrote:

Why would BER build a modern terminal pier with no jet bridges? Doesn't make any sense to me.



It´s not uncommon for airports to have a dedicated Terminal/Facility for low cost carriers.
Most low cost airlines don´t wish to use jetbridges, even when available, in order to pay lower fees.
Some airports have built dedicated Low Cost facilities without jetbridges and other amenities, to cater to the low cost traffic.

If you look at a satellite image of BER you´ll notice that only the north pier has no jetbrigdes and you can see the T2 being built behing it.
But the extensions to north and south piers that will be connected to the future T3/4 will have jetbridges.
 
twicearound
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:28 pm

lightmac wrote:
While this delay was long and terrible, inauguration delays for airports are nothing special, think of Vienna, Istanbul or even Doha, they all were delayed and then fine. Berlin's economy is finally growing and the traffic increases more then in say Frankfurt currently, so there is reason for optimism, no?


This is a bit more than a "inauguration delay". It's like when airlines say the flight isn't canceled, just delayed for three days.
I think the Berlin Blunder takes the cake....a ten year birthday cake.
 
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LH748
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:41 pm

I don't see them opening in October. If we're lucky they just tear this entire disaster down and get an entirely new airport built by someone who knows what he/she is doing.
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max999
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:21 pm

steman wrote:
max999 wrote:

Why would BER build a modern terminal pier with no jet bridges? Doesn't make any sense to me.



It´s not uncommon for airports to have a dedicated Terminal/Facility for low cost carriers.
Most low cost airlines don´t wish to use jetbridges, even when available, in order to pay lower fees.
Some airports have built dedicated Low Cost facilities without jetbridges and other amenities, to cater to the low cost traffic.

If you look at a satellite image of BER you´ll notice that only the north pier has no jetbrigdes and you can see the T2 being built behing it.
But the extensions to north and south piers that will be connected to the future T3/4 will have jetbridges.


I don't understand how hard stands are bus gates have lower fees because they appear to cost more to operate. For example at a bus gate, you have to hire multiple bus drivers and to operate and maintain the buses. Those are extra costs don't exist for jet bridges.

For hard stands, you need to hire extra staff to direct passengers who walk on the tarmac to the plane.

Perhaps someone can educate me how hard stands and bus gates are cheaper than jet bridges.
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leftcoast8
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:16 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
...you mean "if" the new Berlin airport opens then.


Star Citizen and Dwarf Fortress v1.0 will be released before before Brandenburg Airport opens.

I'd be so bold as to say nuclear fusion power will be feasible at commercial scale before the airport opens. "A year away 20 years ago, a year away 20 years from now..."

PSAatSAN4Ever probably has a lot to say about the incompetence of the airport designers.
 
lightmac
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:35 am

I am sorry, this thread is not about speculating about another delay, but about new route launches.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:40 am

I can see SFO and/or LAX on UA or Eurowings
 
steman
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:06 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
I can see SFO and/or LAX on UA or Eurowings


That would be nice but I really can´t see that happening in the near future.
UA does not fly from SFO or LAX to Europe apart from main Star Alliance hubs like FRA or the Juggernaut that is LHR.
Eurowings has such a small presence at TXL currently and no official plans to expand operations at BER, let alone base long haul ops.
Air Berlin used to serve SFO and LAX briefly from TXL but I don´t know if those routes were performing well.
I think BER will keep on seeing just a few services to the East Coast for the foreseeable future.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:01 pm

steman wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
I can see SFO and/or LAX on UA or Eurowings


That would be nice but I really can´t see that happening in the near future.
UA does not fly from SFO or LAX to Europe apart from main Star Alliance hubs like FRA or the Juggernaut that is LHR.
Eurowings has such a small presence at TXL currently and no official plans to expand operations at BER, let alone base long haul ops.
Air Berlin used to serve SFO and LAX briefly from TXL but I don´t know if those routes were performing well.
I think BER will keep on seeing just a few services to the East Coast for the foreseeable future.


UA flies, CDG, AMS, abd DUB from SFO in addition to Star Alliance hubs. Given that combined with LH they dominate to Germany it might work.
 
steman
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Re: Once the new Berlin airports opens in October, which new routes will be launched?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:29 am

bfitzflyer wrote:

UA flies, CDG, AMS, abd DUB from SFO in addition to Star Alliance hubs. Given that combined with LH they dominate to Germany it might work.


I wasn´t aware of that, thank you. Still, the business case for SFO/LAX-BER is still not there in my opinion. But things are changing. Berlin´s economy is growing, especially in the IT
sector and that might make such routes financially viable. But not in 2020 or 2021 yet. Just my opionion and happy to be proven wrong :-)
I was actually expecting Norwegian to try out some long haul services out of TXL and eventually BER, but they didn´t even show an interest in doing so.
Seeing how they seem to be succeding in FCO (I don´t have real figures, just based on their offer), which, in many ways, is similar to Berlin, I thought they might open
up something here too.

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