FlyingBlueKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 am

Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:06 pm

They want to replace the A330, 747, and the 777-200ER. It looks like KLM wants replace all of them with the 787 and 777-300ER. But then they will need to retrain the A330 pilots, cabin crew, and maintenance crew on Boeing aircraft. Why not order the A350 to save time (and possibly even money)? Because it is more complicated than that. There probably is more Boeing crew than Airbus crew at KLM, and KLM wants to simplify their fleet.

KLM pilots seem to be very happy with the A330: https://blog.klm.com/nl/daarom-vlieg-ik ... irbus-330/

English: https://blog.klm.com/thats-why-i-love-f ... irbus-330/

KLM has 13 A330’s, and 15 777-200ER’s. The 777-300ER has more passenger capacity and more range than the A330’s and 772’s. If KLM would order the A350, it would probably be the A350-1000 due to EHAM being slot restricted. If KLM would order the 777X, it would probably be the 777-9, again due to EHAM slot restrictions. The A35K has a higher range than the B779. But the B779 has more capacity (pax, fuel, payload). But the A35K has the option to load containers, and I don’t know if the B779 has that.

Is the 747-8i an aircraft KLM needs?

The 747-8i has more seating capacity than the B779. The B748 has a higher MTOW, it has more fuel capacity, and it has more range. The B779 has more cargo capacity. Because of the slot restrictions at EHAM, isn’t it smarter to order the B748 instead of the B779 or A35K? I don’t know about the operating costs.

In the end, KLM will probably choose for the 777X.

What is your opinion?
 
FGITD
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:04 pm

It’s much cheaper to train pilots and other staff to fly a new type than it is to order new aircraft. Not to mention, they would have go through training for the 350 anyway. Definitely a bit longer to go 330 to 777, but then you also aren't spending billions on an aircraft order...

The 748 is way too much airplane. It's a much more significant step up from the 744 than it gets credit for. And at this point they couldn't get new ones from Boeing even if they wanted.

I think the plan going forward is pretty much just 787 variants and 77w. There's no sense in having so many types flying around. also, slot restricted or not, if the plane is too big for the route it does you no good. Better to have a smaller plane that's always full than a big empty one.
 
leftcoast8
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Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:09 pm

KLM is not a very premium-heavy airline so I doubt the 747-8i will be considered. It's the only European carrier to serve Dar es Salaam and Entebbe, for example (the others barely have any Subsaharan destinations at all outside of South Africa, Nigeria and Ghana. AF is an exception due to France's colonial footprint). That should give you an idea of kind of yields KLM attracts.
 
76er
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:15 am

Oh, not again..
You are aware that KL actually HAS ordered the 359, but that not long ago it was decided that these aircraft will now to AF. KL wil move to a single (sub)type longhaul division, resulting in enormous efficiency gains regarding flight crew, parts, maintenance and (digital) paperwork.
The 748i is dead anyway with the 748F hanging on by a thread but its days are numbered as well.

789. 7910(ER?) 77W

K.I.S.S.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3498
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Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:55 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
KLM is not a very premium-heavy airline so I doubt the 747-8i will be considered. It's the only European carrier to serve Dar es Salaam and Entebbe, for example.


Swiss serves Dar, Brussels serves Entebbe and Turkish does both.

76er wrote:
Oh, not again..
You are aware that KL actually HAS ordered the 359, but that not long ago it was decided that these aircraft will now to AF. KL wil move to a single (sub)type longhaul division, resulting in enormous efficiency gains regarding flight crew, parts, maintenance and (digital) paperwork.


Ugh, not this again. KLM will reduce to 2 long haul types, not one. The A350 is definitely likely as the 777 replacement when time comes to it. The group management already decided that the Air France and KLM fleets will be streamlined in the future, a strong indication that both will eventually go for the popular 787 and A350 combo.
 
76er
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:43 pm

I should have been more clear. With one type for the longhaul fleet I meant the fact that the KL widebody pilot group will operate the 77/78 combo as a single type. IMHO the 330s will be replaced by more 789s. Very, very efficient.
Do I like it from a passenger standpoint? No. But 3-4-3 and 3-3-3 in the Boeings vs 2-4-2 and 3-3-3 in the Airbii will simply make KL more money. And since going full sardine on 330/350 is just one step too far, even for KLM. Thank goodness.
 
leftcoast8
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:18 am

VSMUT wrote:
Swiss serves Dar, Brussels serves Entebbe and Turkish does both.


It looks like Entebbe is a tag-on on the Brussels-Kigali route (Rwanda was a Belgian colony) and Dar es Salaam is a tag-on for the Zurich-Nairobi route. What kind of demand is there between Switzerland and Kenya/Tanzania, or is this route designed to attract Star Alliance connections on the U.S. east coast-Africa route?

And yes, I forgot about Turkish. Though personally I count them more as a Near East superconnector rather than a legacy European airline like BA/LH/KLAF/LX/SN/AZ, even though Turkey is in Europe.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:44 am

I would have heavily argued for a KLM 747-8. Five years ago. At this point the airplane is obsolete. If airlines need that sort of capacity, Boeing has offered a 777-10
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:19 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Swiss serves Dar, Brussels serves Entebbe and Turkish does both.


It looks like Entebbe is a tag-on on the Brussels-Kigali route (Rwanda was a Belgian colony) and Dar es Salaam is a tag-on for the Zurich-Nairobi route. What kind of demand is there between Switzerland and Kenya/Tanzania, or is this route designed to attract Star Alliance connections on the U.S. east coast-Africa route?


? What does the US have to do with anything?

East Africa has always been a massive route for European (often Scandinavian/Dutch) expats on foreign development assignments. Swiss and KLM can charge big money because it is often a government organisation that picks up the tab.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Topic Author
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 am

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:13 pm

What I understand from all these posts it’ll be the 777-300ER and the 787-9/10 at KLM for long-haul operations.
NL: Bij de landing is full reverse het leukst!

EN: Full reverse is the best at touchdown!
 
Flanker7
Posts: 374
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Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:26 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
What I understand from all these posts it’ll be the 777-300ER and the 787-9/10 at KLM for long-haul operations.

777-200, 777-300, 787-9 and10 goed longhaul ops for now. Group will decide later what to replace the 777-200 with. Most cabin crew is trained for all above types.
Flying blue only if possible
 
Flanker7
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:27 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
What I understand from all these posts it’ll be the 777-300ER and the 787-9/10 at KLM for long-haul operations.

777-200, 777-300, 787-9 and10 for longhaul ops for now. Group will decide later what to replace the 777-200 with. Most cabin crew is trained for all above types.
Flying blue only if possible
 
leftcoast8
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:27 pm

VSMUT wrote:
leftcoast8 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Swiss serves Dar, Brussels serves Entebbe and Turkish does both.


It looks like Entebbe is a tag-on on the Brussels-Kigali route (Rwanda was a Belgian colony) and Dar es Salaam is a tag-on for the Zurich-Nairobi route. What kind of demand is there between Switzerland and Kenya/Tanzania, or is this route designed to attract Star Alliance connections on the U.S. east coast-Africa route?


? What does the US have to do with anything?

East Africa has always been a massive route for European (often Scandinavian/Dutch) expats on foreign development assignments. Swiss and KLM can charge big money because it is often a government organisation that picks up the tab.


I only mentioned US connections because BA, Lufthansa and Air France no longer fly to KGL or EBB; I assumed that they couldn't compete with the ME4. I wasn't aware of a strong motivation for flights from Europe, but now that you mention NGOs it all clicked.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:47 pm

leftcoast8 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
leftcoast8 wrote:

It looks like Entebbe is a tag-on on the Brussels-Kigali route (Rwanda was a Belgian colony) and Dar es Salaam is a tag-on for the Zurich-Nairobi route. What kind of demand is there between Switzerland and Kenya/Tanzania, or is this route designed to attract Star Alliance connections on the U.S. east coast-Africa route?


? What does the US have to do with anything?

East Africa has always been a massive route for European (often Scandinavian/Dutch) expats on foreign development assignments. Swiss and KLM can charge big money because it is often a government organisation that picks up the tab.


I only mentioned US connections because BA, Lufthansa and Air France no longer fly to KGL or EBB; I assumed that they couldn't compete with the ME4. I wasn't aware of a strong motivation for flights from Europe, but now that you mention NGOs it all clicked.


It is government organisations, not NGOs.
 
76er
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: Which replacement aircrafts will KLM choose for the B744, A330, and B772?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:23 am

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
But the A35K has the option to load containers, and I don’t know if the B779 has that.


Every modern widebody has the capability to carry containers.

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