caliboy93
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California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:18 pm

Are there sizable cities in California which currently don't have any commercial air service but could really benefit from it? So far I can think of Chico, South Lake Tahoe, Visalia, etc.
 
iflykpdx
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:20 pm

What would you define as "sizable?"
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caliboy93
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:20 pm

iflykpdx wrote:
What would you define as "sizable?"


Cities which are large enough and have enough of a market to support any kind of air service.
 
cynlb
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:26 pm

Also Oxnard, Palmdale, Carlsbad (occasionally), San Bernardino (a terminal was built but never used)
Last edited by cynlb on Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyfresno
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:28 pm

Some airports that have had service in the past but no longer do:

MOD, VIS, CIC, IYK, CLD, OXR, BIH, TVL, PMD

Not sure how many are really feasible anymore. Some have performance issues, some are too close to other airports, some could barely hang on to EAS.
 
drdisque
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:38 pm

I wouldn't say that all of those cities could really benefit from air service, in fact Visalia specifically opted out.

But another notable city in California without service is Modesto. I guess you could also throw in Palmdale, they briefly had service although pax numbers were really low.

Inyokern also used to have EAS even though it's tiny. It's less than 2 hour drive from BFL and under 3 hours from LAX and ONT.

Oxnard also had service in the last 15 years - it is less than an hour from SBA and less than 2 hours from LAX though so the need there is really doubtful.
 
DesertAir
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:53 pm

Concord had air service briefly: PSA BA-146 service to LAX. I made a round trip once. Also, Napa briefly had service to SFO.
 
Ishrion
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:56 pm

DesertAir wrote:
Concord had air service briefly: PSA BA-146 service to LAX. I made a round trip once. Also, Napa briefly had service to SFO.


Isn’t Concord served by JetSuiteX to Burbank?
 
phxsanslcpdx
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:01 pm

I agree that most of these cities wouldn't particularly benefit from new air service, but it's a pretty good list so far. VCV doesn't have passenger facilities, but the Victor Valley is similar in population to Lancaster/Palmdale. It's close enough to ONT to make commercial service unlikely in the near term. Blythe might benefit from scheduled service--right now I believe there's nothing along the Colorado between YUM and IFP--but that's more about the region, its remoteness, and tourism than Blythe's size.

CLD's been mentioned, and I agree... and really every other city in San Diego County aside from SD itself. SAN's stretched to the limit so there's definitely long-term demand for one or more other commercial airport in the county, but no promising-looking solutions.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:16 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Some airports that have had service in the past but no longer do:

MOD, VIS, CIC, IYK, CLD, OXR, BIH, TVL, PMD

Not sure how many are really feasible anymore. Some have performance issues, some are too close to other airports, some could barely hang on to EAS.


Lack of small planes by AA/DL/UA connection carriers. Rising regional pilot wages so they'd rather have them flying CR7s and E75s. Gate congestion at SFO and LAX. Don't expect too many of these small airports to come back.
 
mountainwest90
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:49 pm

I've always thought that AA should try PMD-PHX. PHX makes the most sense geographically and for domestic connections.

I think 2x daily CRJ-700 would be successful. But PMD always seems more interested in an interstate route to SFO or LAX.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:55 pm

What about the whole Palm Desert / Indio / Coachella area? Sure it's not too far away from Palm Springs, but it doesn't have air service of it's own. There are two small airfields in this area (Bermuda Dunes and Thermal), but they don't see commercial air service.

But as said, no chance of getting service here. Too close to Palm Springs.
 
drdisque
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:00 pm

mountainwest90 wrote:
I've always thought that AA should try PMD-PHX. PHX makes the most sense geographically and for domestic connections.

I think 2x daily CRJ-700 would be successful. But PMD always seems more interested in an interstate route to SFO or LAX.


When OO/UAX offered it 12 years ago - PMD-SFO did ATTROCIOUSLY bad.

Like 10-15% load factors when it was 2x daily CR2.

Then they changed it to 3x daily E120 and LF's increased to maybe 20-25%.

Still Terrible.
 
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intotheair
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:00 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about the whole Palm Desert / Indio / Coachella area? Sure it's not too far away from Palm Springs, but it doesn't have air service of it's own. There are two small airfields in this area (Bermuda Dunes and Thermal), but they don't see commercial air service.

But as said, no chance of getting service here. Too close to Palm Springs.


I believe JetSuiteX filed flights to Thermal last year for the Coachella festival, but the flights ultimately were not flown. Still probably too close to PSP for any service that makes any sense.
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jmc1975
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:03 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about the whole Palm Desert / Indio / Coachella area? Sure it's not too far away from Palm Springs, but it doesn't have air service of it's own. There are two small airfields in this area (Bermuda Dunes and Thermal), but they don't see commercial air service.

But as said, no chance of getting service here. Too close to Palm Springs.

UDD, BXS, BLH and IPL all had short-lived air service at one time.
.......
 
drdisque
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:04 pm

jmc1975 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about the whole Palm Desert / Indio / Coachella area? Sure it's not too far away from Palm Springs, but it doesn't have air service of it's own. There are two small airfields in this area (Bermuda Dunes and Thermal), but they don't see commercial air service.

But as said, no chance of getting service here. Too close to Palm Springs.

UDD, BXS, BLH and IPL all had short-lived air service at one time.


IPL currently has air service (Mokulele to LAX)
 
FATFlyer
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:25 am

Bishop (BIH) has been preparing the last few years for commercial service to start in 2020 or 2021. They submitted a Part 139 ACM to the FAA and following review it is currently being revised for acceptance.

Supposedly Allegiant has expressed interest in BIH.

But the bigger piece seems to be that Mammoth Mountain Ski Area has stated it wants commercial air service moved from MMH to BIH. Supposedly the ski resort is unhappy with reliability at MMH.

Additionally there are operational constraints at MMH limiting aircraft size. The ski resort wants commercial aircraft flying in from cities such as Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, etc.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
alasizon
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:54 am

FATFlyer wrote:
Bishop (BIH) has been preparing the last few years for commercial service to start in 2020 or 2021. They submitted a Part 139 ACM to the FAA and following review it is currently being revised for acceptance.

Supposedly Allegiant has expressed interest in BIH.

But the bigger piece seems to be that Mammoth Mountain Ski Area has stated it wants commercial air service moved from MMH to BIH. Supposedly the ski resort is unhappy with reliability at MMH.

Additionally there are operational constraints at MMH limiting aircraft size. The ski resort wants commercial aircraft flying in from cities such as Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, etc.


Not sure that BIH would be much better as there are still some not so fun approach minimums. MMH's problems are the one way in; one way out operations and there isn't much that can be done about that but moving the flights to BIH isn't going to suddenly add new flights to all the biggest hubs.

mountainwest90 wrote:
I've always thought that AA should try PMD-PHX. PHX makes the most sense geographically and for domestic connections.

I think 2x daily CRJ-700 would be successful. But PMD always seems more interested in an interstate route to SFO or LAX.


Not enough traffic from PMD as an area that wouldn't already drive to BUR or LAX. Traffic from Mojave goes over to BFL.

phxsanslcpdx wrote:
Blythe might benefit from scheduled service--right now I believe there's nothing along the Colorado between YUM and IFP--but that's more about the region, its remoteness, and tourism than Blythe's size.


Having had to land in Blythe once, I can tell you the facilities aren't there. That being said, I don't think people along the Colorado are driving to YUM or IFP for service; more likely they drive to PHX to take advantage of lower fares at the expense of an extra 35-40 minutes of drive time.

I would bet TVL will be the next airport to come back with service (starting summer only, maybe just weekends) unless CLD suddenly gets their act together and either puts part of El Camino Real underground or purchases the buildings on the west end so that they can lengthen the runway.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
williaminsd
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:11 am

FATFlyer wrote:
Bishop (BIH) has been preparing the last few years for commercial service to start in 2020 or 2021. They submitted a Part 139 ACM to the FAA and following review it is currently being revised for acceptance.

Supposedly Allegiant has expressed interest in BIH.

But the bigger piece seems to be that Mammoth Mountain Ski Area has stated it wants commercial air service moved from MMH to BIH. Supposedly the ski resort is unhappy with reliability at MMH.

Additionally there are operational constraints at MMH limiting aircraft size. The ski resort wants commercial aircraft flying in from cities such as Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, etc.


Looks like they are targeting November 2020 and as noted by FATflyer, have been in talks with Allegiant...

http://thesheetnews.com/2019/05/10/bish ... r-service/

Allegiant provided a letter to Inyo County in Feb 2017 expressing interest in serving Oakland and Phoenix-Gateway 2x/week using A319s.

https://www.sierrawave.net/inyo-county- ... p-airport/
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:27 am

Lake Tahoe seems like the standout that would actually have demand and work with less than daily service. Now that airlines like frontier and allegiant don't mine less than daily could see Caesars supporting them too. I didn't think that airport wanted commercial service back though? Can't remember where I heard that but I don't think Caesars even does charters there or anything anymore do they ?
 
williaminsd
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:44 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Lake Tahoe seems like the standout that would actually have demand and work with less than daily service. Now that airlines like frontier and allegiant don't mine less than daily could see Caesars supporting them too. I didn't think that airport wanted commercial service back though? Can't remember where I heard that but I don't think Caesars even does charters there or anything anymore do they ?


This might be difficult as the airport surrendered its certificate in 2015 and the City took over the terminal and now uses it as City Hall. Reno interests would also put up a fight, despite TVL being in California. But, you never know, difficult does not mean impossible.

Here's a pretty cool history of the airport. Actually pretty robust service over the years...

https://cityofslt.us/DocumentCenter/Vie ... RT-HISTORY
Last edited by williaminsd on Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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mercure1
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:50 am

An A319 departing BIH would have about a -8000lb reduced takeoff weight due to runway length and airport elevation (7500ft at 4100' msl).
But that still yields about 2000nm range with a full load, so most of the east coast should be doable.
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strfyr51
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:56 am

[quote="PatrickZ80"]What about the whole Palm Desert / Indio / Coachella area? Sure it's not too far away from Palm Springs, but it doesn't have air service of it's own. There are two small airfields in this area (Bermuda Dunes and Thermal), but they don't see commercial air service.

But as said, no chance of getting service here. Too close to Palm Springs.[/quo
all 3 of those citied can be served from PSP. Unti Palm Springs shuts down the Airport? that's where the service should be. I flew into and out of PSP when I lived in the area. It has grown quite a bit but it has grown to make PSP even a better destination airport, for the local region.
 
alasizon
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:58 am

williaminsd wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Lake Tahoe seems like the standout that would actually have demand and work with less than daily service. Now that airlines like frontier and allegiant don't mine less than daily could see Caesars supporting them too. I didn't think that airport wanted commercial service back though? Can't remember where I heard that but I don't think Caesars even does charters there or anything anymore do they ?


This might be difficult as the airport surrendered its certificate in 2015 and the City took over the terminal and now uses it as City Hall. Reno interests would also put up a fight, despite TVL being in California. But, you never know.

Here's a pretty cool history of the airport. Actually pretty robust service over the years...

https://cityofslt.us/DocumentCenter/Vie ... RT-HISTORY


Although they don't currently have a certificate; it is still the most likely in California to see additional service.
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Nick614
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:03 am

Inyokern could have the potential for some military traffic being next to china lake. long drive from ontario, but scenic.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:33 am

drdisque wrote:
mountainwest90 wrote:
I've always thought that AA should try PMD-PHX. PHX makes the most sense geographically and for domestic connections.

I think 2x daily CRJ-700 would be successful. But PMD always seems more interested in an interstate route to SFO or LAX.


When OO/UAX offered it 12 years ago - PMD-SFO did ATTROCIOUSLY bad.

Like 10-15% load factors when it was 2x daily CR2.

Then they changed it to 3x daily E120 and LF's increased to maybe 20-25%.

Still Terrible.

Also remember they really couldn't have picked a worse time to start that flight. It was in the middle of the recession 10 years ago. I think they could still take a crack at it, especially with all the aerospace businesses in the area.
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FATFlyer
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:07 am

alasizon wrote:
Not sure that BIH would be much better as there are still some not so fun approach minimums. MMH's problems are the one way in; one way out operations and there isn't much that can be done about that but moving the flights to BIH isn't going to suddenly add new flights to all the biggest hubs.


Mammoth Mountain Ski Area is the big dog in the area. It provides a large part of the airline service subsidies for MMH, giving something close to $1.5 to $2 million per year.

In 2018 the COO of the resort told the Mammoth Lakes Tourism Board "Commercial Air Service, we believe, belongs in Bishop. I think what is important to understand is [Mammoth Mountain] wants to move the air service to Bishop."
http://thesheetnews.com/2018/02/09/tbidness-deals/
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DesertAir
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:15 pm

Ishrion wrote:
DesertAir wrote:
Concord had air service briefly: PSA BA-146 service to LAX. I made a round trip once. Also, Napa briefly had service to SFO.


Isn’t Concord served by JetSuiteX to Burbank?


Thanks for the correction. I checked this service out this morning.
 
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rjsampson
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:38 pm

phxsanslcpdx wrote:
CLD's been mentioned, and I agree... and really every other city in San Diego County aside from SD itself. SAN's stretched to the limit so there's definitely long-term demand for one or more other commercial airport in the county, but no promising-looking solutions.


I simply can't get my head around why Carlsbad can't make commercial air service work. United had been servicing the airport for years and, if I recall correctly, only stopped because it retired the EMB120 aircraft it had been using.

Then of course there was the California Pacific Airlines fiasco (and now they're saying they're gonna make another go at it!). I wonder why legacies aren't interested in getting back in there.

....and of course, there is the runway. If they could just somehow get another 400' on either end: You have a KSNA-sized runway. I'm not sure if the issue is money, NIMBYs, both... As far as a bigger runway: Does anyone think it's not a matter of "if," but "when?" (Even if "when" is 10 years from now). And instead of some shaky upstart "airline" like CPA: Why wouldn't the legacies give it another shot?
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:16 pm

Flashback...

 
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aeromoe
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:00 am

mountainwest90 wrote:
I've always thought that AA should try PMD-PHX. PHX makes the most sense geographically and for domestic connections.

I think 2x daily CRJ-700 would be successful. But PMD always seems more interested in an interstate route to SFO or LAX.


Correct term for within a state is intrastate, not interstate.
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seb146
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:17 am

With South Lake being close to RNO, I don't know if that would work. AirCal and (I think) PSA had flights there and they didn't work. I would think Truckee would be a better option as it is closer to Squaw Valley and Mt. Rose.

I wonder how once a day or 3x a week service would work to Susanville or Alturas?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
DesertAir
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
With South Lake being close to RNO, I don't know if that would work. AirCal and (I think) PSA had flights there and they didn't work. I would think Truckee would be a better option as it is closer to Squaw Valley and Mt. Rose.

I wonder how once a day or 3x a week service would work to Susanville or Alturas?


PSA acquired Electras for the South Lake Tahoe service and used them on other routes as Bargin Birds. I flew one of these Electras from OAK to BUR.
 
FATFlyer
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:56 pm

Bishop (BIH) is moving forward with seeing commercial service start in the next year. Inyo County is holding public meetings this month for the Environmental Assessment.

According to information from the Mammoth area tourism group, initially United Express flights would be moved to BIH from MMH. Per other meetings of the tourism group, Mammoth Ski Area does want to support larger aircraft and service from other hubs after the move to BIH.

Inyo County is proposing to initiate commercial air service at the Bishop Airport. The proposed project would relocate United Airlines’ scheduled commercial air service to Bishop Airport as early as fall 2020. Mammoth Yosemite Airport would continue to offer air service from JetSuiteX (JSX) and other similar charter services moving forward. The move would create more reliable and consistent air service options for residents and visitors in the Eastern Sierra region.
http://www.sierrawave.net/commercial-air-service-at-the-bishop-airport-in-2020-scoping-meetings-scheduled/
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aklrno
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
With South Lake being close to RNO, I don't know if that would work. AirCal and (I think) PSA had flights there and they didn't work. I would think Truckee would be a better option as it is closer to Squaw Valley and Mt. Rose.

I wonder how once a day or 3x a week service would work to Susanville or Alturas?

Mt. Rose is closer to RNO than Truckee in drive time. RNO is 30 minutes by car farther from Squaw Vally than Truckee airport to Squaw. Truckee is at 5900 feet with a 7000 foot runway. I'm not sure what commercial airliners can manage to get in there.

The chance of any improvements at Truckee are minimal. The neighbors (I am one of them) are fed up with jets ignoring the noise abatement procedures. We were happy with the small general aviation airport there when we moved in, but the airport conned us into allowing the last 1000 foot runway addition as being required for safety when it just brought us much larger aircraft. Now they want another 1000 feet for the safety of the larger jets. Won't get away with that again. They tried a year ago and gave up (at least for a while) in the face of area objections.
 
alo2yyz
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:12 pm

Part of me wonders if the lack of air service in some of these places can be chalked up to weather and people's willingness/ability to drive.

e.g., Chico/Sacramento vs Waterloo/Cedar Rapids. Chico is further from the major city than Waterloo, but lacks service. Admittedly, there is some heavy industry in Waterloo but there's a big difference between driving in the Central Valley December-April relative to doing the same in Iowa. Would there be demand in Chico if getting to SMF was more difficult for a good portion of the year? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
blacksoviet
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:00 am

Why doesn’t Ukiah have Saab 340 service?
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:31 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Why doesn’t Ukiah have Saab 340 service?


Because there are no longer any passenger Saab 340 operators on the west coast? PenAir retreated to Alaska a couple years ago, and American Eagle went all jet several years before that.
 
UA444
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:19 pm

Chico was nice because you could park for free and walk right into the terminal.

The prices were too high so most drove to Sacramento. If they could price it cheaper someone would fly here
 
MrBretz
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:21 pm

DesertAir wrote:
seb146 wrote:
With South Lake being close to RNO, I don't know if that would work. AirCal and (I think) PSA had flights there and they didn't work. I would think Truckee would be a better option as it is closer to Squaw Valley and Mt. Rose.

I wonder how once a day or 3x a week service would work to Susanville or Alturas?


PSA acquired Electras for the South Lake Tahoe service and used them on other routes as Bargin Birds. I flew one of these Electras from OAK to BUR.


I flew into South Lake Tahoe now so many years ago on AirCal. I recall you were warned about the rapid decent over the mountains on the approach. And at least twice, I recall people using barf bags. It had sort of a triggering effect on other passengers. I don't recall any similar issues on departure.
 
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seb146
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Re: California cities w/out commercial air service?

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:48 pm

MrBretz wrote:
DesertAir wrote:
seb146 wrote:
With South Lake being close to RNO, I don't know if that would work. AirCal and (I think) PSA had flights there and they didn't work. I would think Truckee would be a better option as it is closer to Squaw Valley and Mt. Rose.

I wonder how once a day or 3x a week service would work to Susanville or Alturas?


PSA acquired Electras for the South Lake Tahoe service and used them on other routes as Bargin Birds. I flew one of these Electras from OAK to BUR.


I flew into South Lake Tahoe now so many years ago on AirCal. I recall you were warned about the rapid decent over the mountains on the approach. And at least twice, I recall people using barf bags. It had sort of a triggering effect on other passengers. I don't recall any similar issues on departure.


I had a similar experience on WN flying in rain and fog into PDX. I think the captain could have been avoiding another aircraft or just off course, but it was crazy feeling a bank and dive all at once..

We have driven over US-50 from SAC to South Lake a few times in the past few years. I can understand how that approach would turn stomachs!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos