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Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:38 pm
by UA857
How come for ANA´s NRT-HNL service why did ANA choose the A380 over the 748 I mean the 748 could easily fit inside HNL´s existing gates.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:41 pm
by carlokiii
They didn’t choose either aircraft as they had no need for one. The A380 was inherited as part of the Skymark deal.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:44 pm
by Pcoder
Simple, this was part of the Skymark bailout and part of the agreement as Airbus were a creditor, ANA pick up a few frames from Airbus to settle the money owed to Airbus.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:45 pm
by BAeRJ100
Because their A380s were originally ordered by Skymark, and only ended up at ANA due to the former's bankruptcy. Neither the A380 or 748 were actually on ANA's radar.

Edit: already answered promptly while I was typing!

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:49 pm
by ikolkyo
First 3 posts have absolutely nailed it.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:32 am
by JayinKitsap
I recall that ANA wanted to buy Skymark for their slots, it ended up being Slots + (3) A380 or neither. They opted to buy. The HNL routes will build to 14 flights each way per week, at low time as well as until the 3rd arrives the 3rd plane in the rotation is a smaller plane.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:34 am
by NWAROOSTER
ANA has two A380s and one more coming that realistically they do NOT want. I wonder if they are leased or they own them. ANA only acquired them to keep Delta from acquiring Skymark which was in bankruptcy. ANA did NOT want any further presence of Delta in Japan. I do not think ANA did not want the A380s or any 747-8i aircraft. Now ANA needs to fly the A380 and hopefully not loose any operating money on them. I am sure at the first moment they can unload them they will go away. :old:

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:36 am
by a36001
Wondering what ANA thinks of them and how are they performing?

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:36 am
by leftcoast8
Itami banned 3 and 4 engine jets on March 31, 2006. Domestic 747s were already getting retired due to the massive Tokaido Shinkansen expansion in October 2002 and the post-91 shrinking of Japan's economy as a whole reducing the demand for domestic air travel.

In short, ANA didn't want any more 4 holers even before the Skymark debacle; it was forced to eat the built A380s in Skymark's order so that Delta couldn't acquire Skymark. (Doesn't Japan have foreign ownership restrictions on airlines?) BC overextended itself with its A380 order. They planned on the following 4 routes for A380s:

NRT-JFK
NRT-LHR
NRT-FRA
NRT-CDG

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:52 am
by Fiend
leftcoast8 wrote:
Itami banned 3 and 4 engine jets on March 31, 2006. Domestic 747s were already getting retired due to the massive Tokaido Shinkansen expansion in October 2002 and the post-91 shrinking of Japan's economy as a whole reducing the demand for domestic air travel.

In short, ANA didn't want any more 4 holers even before the Skymark debacle; it was forced to eat the built A380s in Skymark's order so that Delta couldn't acquire Skymark. (Doesn't Japan have foreign ownership restrictions on airlines?) BC overextended itself with its A380 order. They planned on the following 4 routes for A380s:

NRT-JFK
NRT-LHR
NRT-FRA
NRT-CDG


The ANA A380's are new builds, not the ones that were built for the Skymark order.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:26 am
by FLALEFTY
Fiend wrote:
leftcoast8 wrote:
Itami banned 3 and 4 engine jets on March 31, 2006. Domestic 747s were already getting retired due to the massive Tokaido Shinkansen expansion in October 2002 and the post-91 shrinking of Japan's economy as a whole reducing the demand for domestic air travel.

In short, ANA didn't want any more 4 holers even before the Skymark debacle; it was forced to eat the built A380s in Skymark's order so that Delta couldn't acquire Skymark. (Doesn't Japan have foreign ownership restrictions on airlines?) BC overextended itself with its A380 order. They planned on the following 4 routes for A380s:

NRT-JFK
NRT-LHR
NRT-FRA
NRT-CDG


The ANA A380's are new builds, not the ones that were built for the Skymark order.


This is correct. The 2 Skymark "White Tails" were delivered to Emirates as A6-EVA (LN 162) & A6-EVB (LN 167) in 2018. These two planes are equipped with RR Trent 972 engines. A third Skymark plane, LN 185 was never built. The 3 ANA planes are all new builds (LN's 262, 263 & 266) and equipped with RR Trent 970 engines.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:30 am
by Aceskywalker
Its telling how little ANA wants the A380s in that they're relegated to the beach route to Hawaii. At least they'll see good use there with decent LFs and a decent amount of high end tourism to the islands filling the premium cabin.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:34 am
by Revelation
ikolkyo wrote:
First 3 posts have absolutely nailed it.

To bury it in concrete, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skymark_A ... Bankruptcy says:

In the final creditor vote on August 6, 2015, the plan supported by ANA and Integral defeated a competing plan supported by Intrepid and Delta. The Delta plan was initially assumed to be the front runner based on Airbus's closer relationship with Delta, but Airbus ultimately switched sides and supported the ANA plan. The Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported that ANA made a conditional offer in late July to purchase Airbus aircraft, which Delta did not match by a prescribed midnight deadline, leading Airbus to switch its stance on the restructuring.[44] ANA announced an order for three A380 aircraft in late 2015, which even ANA admitted was not consistent with its overall fleet plan, leading to speculation that ANA had agreed to accept Skymark's A380 orders in exchange for Airbus's support.[45]

Basically, Airbus made ANA an "offer you cannot refuse".

Oh well, at least their whales are cute.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:39 am
by zakuivcustom
Just a slight correction - OFFICIALLY, the A380s are not part of any deal with Airbus.

Now, unofficial reason is another thing, as it is widely SPECULATED that taking those 3 A380s was how ANA won that battle against Delta in the Skymark takeover battle. ANA always have a upper hand being a Japanese company anyway.

EDIT: Revelation beats me to it :).

leftcoast8 wrote:
Itami banned 3 and 4 engine jets on March 31, 2006. Domestic 747s were already getting retired due to the massive Tokaido Shinkansen expansion in October 2002 and the post-91 shrinking of Japan's economy as a whole reducing the demand for domestic air travel.

In short, ANA didn't want any more 4 holers even before the Skymark debacle; it was forced to eat the built A380s in Skymark's order so that Delta couldn't acquire Skymark. (Doesn't Japan have foreign ownership restrictions on airlines?) BC overextended itself with its A380 order. They planned on the following 4 routes for A380s:

NRT-JFK
NRT-LHR
NRT-FRA
NRT-CDG


For the full story, Skymark got into trouble as they decided to experiment with Premium A330 on routes like HND-CTS and HND-FUK. It faced two headwinds, however - operating those A330 are expensive, and also, it was during that time when Japanese LCCs began to takeoff. Either way, they lose a ton of money on that experiment, and could no longer afford those A380s (which itself was a stupid idea anyway in hindsight).

Airbus say no to Skymark breaking the A380 order and threaten heavy financial penalty, and the rest is history. The bottom line, though, is that if Skymark would have just taken those A380 outright instead of trying to be everything with those A330s, they actuallt may have a slight chance.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:11 am
by juliuswong
FLALEFTY wrote:
Fiend wrote:
leftcoast8 wrote:
Itami banned 3 and 4 engine jets on March 31, 2006. Domestic 747s were already getting retired due to the massive Tokaido Shinkansen expansion in October 2002 and the post-91 shrinking of Japan's economy as a whole reducing the demand for domestic air travel.

In short, ANA didn't want any more 4 holers even before the Skymark debacle; it was forced to eat the built A380s in Skymark's order so that Delta couldn't acquire Skymark. (Doesn't Japan have foreign ownership restrictions on airlines?) BC overextended itself with its A380 order. They planned on the following 4 routes for A380s:

NRT-JFK
NRT-LHR
NRT-FRA
NRT-CDG


The ANA A380's are new builds, not the ones that were built for the Skymark order.


This is correct. The 2 Skymark "White Tails" were delivered to Emirates as A6-EVA (LN 162) & A6-EVB (LN 167) in 2018. These two planes are equipped with RR Trent 972 engines. A third Skymark plane, LN 185 was never built. The 3 ANA planes are all new builds (LN's 262, 263 & 266) and equipped with RR Trent 970 engines.

To add on those two birds EVA and EVB spent a very long time being rewired and reconfigured to EK specification. Widely rumoured EK received substiantial discount for both airframe.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:15 am
by juliuswong
zakuivcustom wrote:
Just a slight correction - OFFICIALLY, the A380s are not part of any deal with Airbus.

Now, unofficial reason is another thing, as it is widely SPECULATED that taking those 3 A380s was how ANA won that battle against Delta in the Skymark takeover battle. ANA always have a upper hand being a Japanese company anyway.

EDIT: Revelation beats me to it :).

leftcoast8 wrote:
Itami banned 3 and 4 engine jets on March 31, 2006. Domestic 747s were already getting retired due to the massive Tokaido Shinkansen expansion in October 2002 and the post-91 shrinking of Japan's economy as a whole reducing the demand for domestic air travel.

In short, ANA didn't want any more 4 holers even before the Skymark debacle; it was forced to eat the built A380s in Skymark's order so that Delta couldn't acquire Skymark. (Doesn't Japan have foreign ownership restrictions on airlines?) BC overextended itself with its A380 order. They planned on the following 4 routes for A380s:

NRT-JFK
NRT-LHR
NRT-FRA
NRT-CDG


For the full story, Skymark got into trouble as they decided to experiment with Premium A330 on routes like HND-CTS and HND-FUK. It faced two headwinds, however - operating those A330 are expensive, and also, it was during that time when Japanese LCCs began to takeoff. Either way, they lose a ton of money on that experiment, and could no longer afford those A380s (which itself was a stupid idea anyway in hindsight).

Airbus say no to Skymark breaking the A380 order and threaten heavy financial penalty, and the rest is history. The bottom line, though, is that if Skymark would have just taken those A380 outright instead of trying to be everything with those A330s, they actuallt may have a slight chance.

Could it be that ANA buying three A380 was part of deal sweetener with Airbus as the latter was in dire need for new order (after all they are the last new customer for the whale)? Intrepid could stood a good chance since most of Skymark's A330ceo were owned by them. Tbh, maintaining a separate team for A380 crew is rather expensive since ANA had moved on to twin engines operating after B747 retirement.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:20 am
by zakuivcustom
juliuswong wrote:
Could it be that ANA buying three A380 was part of deal sweetener with Airbus as the latter was in dire need for new order (after all they are the last new customer for the whale)? Intrepid could stood a good chance since most of Skymark's A330ceo were owned by them. Tbh, maintaining a separate team for A380 crew is rather expensive since ANA had moved on to twin engines operating after B747 retirement.


It's definitely a sweetener, no question about that. It's just that OFFICIALLY AFAIK ANA didn't buy those A380 as part of the Skymark bailout deal.

Those A330s went quick anyway. The 4 Intrepid birds went to TK, while the last one went to Air Europa. A330ceo are, of course, a lot easier to get rid of compare to A380.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:31 am
by hongkongflyer
Any deal related to Skymark need to get approval from Airbus. At that time, Airbus was worried about Skymark’s 380 order, especially when the parts of first two were already in production. Any airline willing to take the 380 orders will have a huge advantage in getting the deal agreed by Airbus.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:42 pm
by Sokes
a36001 wrote:
Wondering what ANA thinks of them and how are they performing?


Lot of comments as to ANA not wanting the A380. A more quantitative analysis would be nice.

Re: Why did ANA choose the A380 over the 747-8I?

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:30 pm
by zakuivcustom
Sokes wrote:
Lot of comments as to ANA not wanting the A380. A more quantitative analysis would be nice.


On record of course ANA will denied that the A380 are not wanted.

In reality, if ANA really wanted the A380, they would have brought more than 3 of them.