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Crackshot
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Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:30 pm

Hi everyone,

I'm a bit of a flightsim enthusiast and are looking for some more retro routes to do. I'm specifically interested in flights from Europe to Australia. Can anyone give me any info on the following airlines and their destinations/stopovers/schedules? I understand it's a big question but if anyone could give me information I'd be really grateful. To narrow it down I'm only interested in routes flown with the 747-400 and 777. And, apart from British Airways, which I know served MEL, BNE and PER, did the other airlines serve any port other than Sydney?

Austrian
British Airways
KLM
Lufthansa
 
Crackshot
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:32 pm

Also, I noticed that ANA used to fly to Brisbane. Anyone know the timetable, and whether it was NRT or HND?
 
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SQ22
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:34 pm

LH was operating FRA-SIN-MEL-SYD with 744. I do not know if the route was different when a DE 763 in LH livery was used in the final years.
 
Crackshot
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:38 pm

SQ22 wrote:
LH was operating FRA-SIN-MEL-SYD with 744.


Thanks! I don't supposed you'd know the timetable?

SQ22 wrote:
I do not know if the route was different when a DE 763 in LH livery was used in the final years.


Wow, if the route didn't change that would be a long flight for the 763. Not impossible I guess, I know SU used to fly theirs SVO-LAX non-stop and that's a comparable length IIRC.
 
Bhoy
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:38 pm

The Vienna route was originally started by Lauda Air (the original iteration, not niki or Laudamotion), and was flown on 763s via BKK IIRC - it was Lauda’s first route, as the Austrian Government hadn’t wanted to give the new Airline traffic rights to go up against the government owned OS. When Lauda and Austrian merged, Austrian kept the route on for a while, before cutting the Australian tagon.
 
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OA412
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:38 pm

KL and LH served both SYD and MEL. BA also served ADL at some point in the early 90s. I seem to remember it was routed something like LHR-BKK-KUL-ADL.

AZ and OA also served SYD and MEL back in the day.

You should be able to find old timetables with routings at departedflights.com
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SQ22
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:44 pm

Crackshot wrote:
SQ22 wrote:
LH was operating FRA-SIN-MEL-SYD with 744.


Thanks! I don't supposed you'd know the timetable?

SQ22 wrote:
I do not know if the route was different when a DE 763 in LH livery was used in the final years.


Wow, if the route didn't change that would be a long flight for the 763. Not impossible I guess, I know SU used to fly theirs SVO-LAX non-stop and that's a comparable length IIRC.


Have a look here:

1960s-90s: Lufthansa to Australia

The 763 was operating to SYD via BKK according to the article.

My first flight ever was LH788/LH789 to and from MEL in 1993.
 
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chepos
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:54 pm

VS also operated into SYD with the 346. LHR-HKG-SYD.

Did BA ever fly into Perth?


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Bhoy
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:00 pm

chepos wrote:
Did BA ever fly into Perth?

Yes, that was where BA9 was heading when it encountered Volcanic ash in 1982.

Full route was LHR-BOM-KUL-PER-MEL-AKL.
 
konrad
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:01 pm

If you are looking for retro routes, how about Olympic Airways OA serving MEL and SYD from Athens first on 707 and later 747 classics.
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:19 pm

Bhoy wrote:
The Vienna route was originally started by Lauda Air (the original iteration, not niki or Laudamotion), and was flown on 763s via BKK IIRC - it was Lauda’s first route, as the Austrian Government hadn’t wanted to give the new Airline traffic rights to go up against the government owned OS. When Lauda and Austrian merged, Austrian kept the route on for a while, before cutting the Australian tagon.


In 1997 I flew VIE-KUL-MEL on a Lauda B777. I'm not sure anymore if we had an additional stop at SYD.
 
Flanker7
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:03 pm

Crackshot wrote:
Hi everyone,

I'm a bit of a flightsim enthusiast and are looking for some more retro routes to do. I'm specifically interested in flights from Europe to Australia. Can anyone give me any info on the following airlines and their destinations/stopovers/schedules? I understand it's a big question but if anyone could give me information I'd be really grateful. To narrow it down I'm only interested in routes flown with the 747-400 and 777. And, apart from British Airways, which I know served MEL, BNE and PER, did the other airlines serve any port other than Sydney?

Austrian
British Airways
KLM
Lufthansa


Ams-Sin-Syd kl 843 with the 747-400
Flying blue only if possible
 
330lover
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:13 pm

BartSimpson wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
The Vienna route was originally started by Lauda Air (the original iteration, not niki or Laudamotion), and was flown on 763s via BKK IIRC - it was Lauda’s first route, as the Austrian Government hadn’t wanted to give the new Airline traffic rights to go up against the government owned OS. When Lauda and Austrian merged, Austrian kept the route on for a while, before cutting the Australian tagon.


In 1997 I flew VIE-KUL-MEL on a Lauda B777. I'm not sure anymore if we had an additional stop at SYD.


Lauda operated 777on a 'triangular' route: VIE-KUL-MEL-SYD-KUL-VIE (MEL and SYD might have been the other way around, don't remember).
Looks a very nice route map these days… :)
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Bhoy
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:55 pm

330lover wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
The Vienna route was originally started by Lauda Air (the original iteration, not niki or Laudamotion), and was flown on 763s via BKK IIRC - it was Lauda’s first route, as the Austrian Government hadn’t wanted to give the new Airline traffic rights to go up against the government owned OS. When Lauda and Austrian merged, Austrian kept the route on for a while, before cutting the Australian tagon.


In 1997 I flew VIE-KUL-MEL on a Lauda B777. I'm not sure anymore if we had an additional stop at SYD.


Lauda operated 777on a 'triangular' route: VIE-KUL-MEL-SYD-KUL-VIE (MEL and SYD might have been the other way around, don't remember).
Looks a very nice route map these days… :)

As per departedflights.com, in January 1989, NG1/2 was a twice a week 763 operating VIE-BKK-SYDvv. By October 1996, NG 1/2 was a three times weekly 763 VIE-SIN-MEL-SYD-SIN-VIE

Lauda didn't take delivery of their first 777 until September 1997, unfortunately the above mentioned schedules (Jan 89 and Oct 96) are the only International timetables on departedflights in the time frame since Lauda started operating scheduled flights in 1988, so I can't confirm when the 772 took over from the 763, or when MEL was added as a triangular route (or even when they moved the stopover from BKK to SIN to KUL).

Austrian stopped operating to Australia in March 2007. By this time, as per BusinessTraveller, they operated '...nine times a week [service] to Sydney and Melbourne. Flights were operated by a mixture of B777s and B767s', with en route stops in KUL and SIN.
Presumably this means the triangular flights had been discontinued by then, with 4/5 times a week service each to both SYD and MEL, both with different stopovers?
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:30 pm

At one point Lauda stopped in Phuket. BA had some very different routes including via BWN. They also had a milkrun SYD-MEL-PER - SIN from memory.

Apart from BA/KL/LH and OS you also had European airline flights to Australia by Aeroflot, Virgin Atlantic, UTA, Air France, Alitalia, JAT, Olympic, and Lauda. Now there's only BA left. How times change.
 
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:13 pm

Crackshot wrote:
Also, I noticed that ANA used to fly to Brisbane. Anyone know the timetable, and whether it was NRT or HND?


NH flew ex NRT and ex KIX to/from BNE in the 90s.

IIRC, KIX was a 763 and NRT was varying 747 equipment at less than daily. BNE-NRT was the first to go before NH eventually axed the KIX-BNE-SYD-KIX triangle in favour of buying 50% of the seats as a block codeshare on AN's 743/744s on the same route before AN's bankruptcy and subsequent liquidation.
 
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:39 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Ams-Sin-Syd kl 843 with the 747-400


Interestingly they also alternated AMS-SIN-SYD with MXP-SIN-SYD for a short period in '98-99. KL 744 with a single Alitalia cabin crew member added, announcements in three languages.
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359
 
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:55 pm

I have seen many Qantas posters from the 60s & 70s showing some sort of service to Belgrade, that's about as much as I know regarding that.

I'm also pretty sure BA flew to Perth through Singapore until 2004.
 
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:25 am

I picked up a 2005 Austrian Airlines timetable from a travel expo. In the timetable it was a 763 VIE-SIN-MEL and 772 VIE-KUL-SYD. But from what I remember the stop in SE Asia but change between SIN and KUL and couple of times. So I wouldn't be surprised if they flew every combination of VIE-SIN/KUL-SYD-MEL at various points. Eventually both SYD and MEL were both served by 772 equipment. One interesting thing was in the seat map the 772 had an interesting config where Y was 9 abreast 3-3-3 in the mid cabin, and 10 abreast 3-4-3 in the rear cabin
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Crackshot
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:05 am

Thanks for everyone who recommended http://www.departedflights.com, that's an amazing resource. It's incredible looking through it and seeing airlines like EgyptAir that used to serve Sydney.
 
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Goodbye
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:07 am

I flew a BA 747 in the Delftlblue Daybreak livery from SIN-BNE in 1997.
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qf789
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:13 am

angusjt wrote:
I have seen many Qantas posters from the 60s & 70s showing some sort of service to Belgrade, that's about as much as I know regarding that.

I'm also pretty sure BA flew to Perth through Singapore until 2004.


The last BA service from PER was 30 June, 2000. They also withdrew from BNE the same day. In the last years of serving PER it served as BA11/12 via SIN. In the early 90's in also operated a tag service between PER and MEL and PER and AKL depending on the day of the week. Prior to operating via SIN it also operated as BA9/10 via KUL, as pointed out up thread in 82 when the infamous volcanic ash incident
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BartSimpson
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:26 am

Bhoy wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:

In 1997 I flew VIE-KUL-MEL on a Lauda B777. I'm not sure anymore if we had an additional stop at SYD.

...
Lauda didn't take delivery of their first 777 until September 1997, unfortunately the above mentioned schedules (Jan 89 and Oct 96) are the only International timetables on departedflights in the time frame since Lauda started operating scheduled flights in 1988, so I can't confirm when the 772 took over from the 763, or when MEL was added as a triangular route (or even when they moved the stopover from BKK to SIN to KUL).


So I just checked my records. My flight NG 1 was end of October 1997 and it indeed went VIE-KUL-SYD-MEL. That settles it. I remember well that I was quite enthusiastic about the flight with the B777 (OE-LPA "Inspiration") - it must have been one of the first birds in a European livery.
 
Flanker7
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:48 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Ams-Sin-Syd kl 843 with the 747-400


Interestingly they also alternated AMS-SIN-SYD with MXP-SIN-SYD for a short period in '98-99. KL 744 with a single Alitalia cabin crew member added, announcements in three languages.

They indeed did that, that was in the time they had a stake in Alitalia. They operated with a full KLM crew complemented with one Alitalia crew member. The route was indeed AMS-SIN-SYD-SIN-MXP and then do the reverse. KLM crew would deadhead between AMS and MXP.
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NTLDaz
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 pm

Crackshot wrote:
Thanks for everyone who recommended http://www.departedflights.com, that's an amazing resource. It's incredible looking through it and seeing airlines like EgyptAir that used to serve Sydney.


Egypt Air and Gulf Air were very good value SYD-SIN. Took Egypt Air once on an A340.
 
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:16 am

Flanker7 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Ams-Sin-Syd kl 843 with the 747-400


Interestingly they also alternated AMS-SIN-SYD with MXP-SIN-SYD for a short period in '98-99. KL 744 with a single Alitalia cabin crew member added, announcements in three languages.

They indeed did that, that was in the time they had a stake in Alitalia. They operated with a full KLM crew complemented with one Alitalia crew member. The route was indeed AMS-SIN-SYD-SIN-MXP and then do the reverse. KLM crew would deadhead between AMS and MXP.


I wasn't clear on the alternation. I flew AMS-MXP-SIN-SYD in Dec 98 with 763 on AMS-MXP. The AMS flight was an hour late and we needed to run between gates to make the connection.
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:58 am

I'm on my phone and traveling, so researching is a pain, but, for some reason I am thinking Laker ran LGW-SYD, maybe someone can look it up ?
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:03 am

jetwet1 wrote:
I'm on my phone and traveling, so researching is a pain, but, for some reason I am thinking Laker ran LGW-SYD, maybe someone can look it up ?


Pretty certain that never happened. I do recall a charter airline flying some sort of regular charter flight. Might have been Thomas Cook.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:46 am

I've got a semi-related question: When did foreign carriers stop serving KHI or CCU on the Kangaroo Route, and why? Both Karachi and Kolkata used to be key stopovers on this route in the 50s and 60s (Qantas was even planning on making those two cities stopovers on their planned Concorde routes), and then they just became an afterthought for foreign airlines.*

Also, when Kangaroo Route flights begin overflying the subcontinent altogether? (Either Europe-Gulf-SE Asia-Aus or with a Europe-SE Asia nonstop segment.)

*-In 1977, BA's only service to Karachi was a twice-weekly terminator via Jeddah, using the VC10. It later became LHR-KWI-DXB-KHI and then LHR-KWI-KHI before Karachi was discontinued in 1991. Most other European carriers switched from Europe-Pakistan-Far East to Europe-Gulf-Karachi by the 80s. Meanwhile, CCU was reduced to a tag-on (BA had LHR-DEL-CCU and KLM had AMS-DEL-CCU)
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:46 am

744:
AZ: MXP-SIN-SYD (using KL aircraft)
BA: LHR-BKK-SYD, LHR-SIN-SYD... there were so many BA variations (intermediate points and Australian domestic tag-on sectors) every twice yearly schedule change it's almost impossible to keep track
KL: AMS-SIN-SYD
LH: FRA-KUL-MEL-SYD
QF: LHR-BKK-SYD, LHR-SIN-MEL. IIRC there was also a short-lived HKG routing
UT then AF: CDG-SIN-CGK-SYD-NOU

777:
BA: LHR-SIN-SYD
NG: VIE-KUL-MEL-SYD. Not sure what happened when OS took over.
UU: CDG-RUN-SYD-NOU (yes a crazy routing, but had one flight number and didn't last, unsurprisingly)

Second part of OP's question:
Yes, some airlines served other cities aside from SYD, but not with the requested aircraft types (only listing widebodies):
AZ: SYD/MEL (D10, 742)
BA: ADL/BNE/MEL/PER/SYD (741, 742)
Britannia: ASP/SYD/other? (762) charters
IW: SYD (D10)
JU: SYD/MEL (D10)
Jes Air Bulgaria: MEL (310)
KL: SYD/MEL (742/743)
LH: SYD/MEL (742). Later SYD only with Condor 763
LO: SYD (IL-62) scheduled charters
NG: SYD/MEL (763)
OA: SYD/MEL (742, 340)
SU: SYD (310)
UT: MEL (743- lasted 6 months)
VS: SYD (340)
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:57 am

NTLDaz wrote:

I do recall a charter airline flying some sort of regular charter flight. Might have been Thomas Cook.


Thomson (now TUI UK) did for at least one season in the mid 2000s. I'm pretty sure it was LGW-BAH-HKT-SYD on a 767-300.

I believe Airtours International (which became My travel and was then absorbed into Thomas Cook) flew to SYD in the 1990s, but can't remember any details.

EDIT: I found this old thread from 2005 that talks about BY to Sydney and Perth, both once weekly:

viewtopic.php?t=305225#p3401029

The route was LGW-AUH-SIN-SYD/PER so ignore my comment above about BAH/HKT.

Two observations from that thread: it would appear that BY had previously flown to Australia in the 1990s, and that in the early 2000s European Aviation had flown their 742s on charter flights to Australia. Does anyone know anything about those EAL flights?
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jetwet1
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:41 am

NTLDaz wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
I'm on my phone and traveling, so researching is a pain, but, for some reason I am thinking Laker ran LGW-SYD, maybe someone can look it up ?


Pretty certain that never happened. I do recall a charter airline flying some sort of regular charter flight. Might have been Thomas Cook.


You are correct, in 1970 they caught permission to fly the route, they did make one flight down as a proving run, but were turned down on the Australian end.
 
Flanker7
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:40 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

Interestingly they also alternated AMS-SIN-SYD with MXP-SIN-SYD for a short period in '98-99. KL 744 with a single Alitalia cabin crew member added, announcements in three languages.

They indeed did that, that was in the time they had a stake in Alitalia. They operated with a full KLM crew complemented with one Alitalia crew member. The route was indeed AMS-SIN-SYD-SIN-MXP and then do the reverse. KLM crew would deadhead between AMS and MXP.


I wasn't clear on the alternation. I flew AMS-MXP-SIN-SYD in Dec 98 with 763 on AMS-MXP. The AMS flight was an hour late and we needed to run between gates to make the connection.

They used to funnel pax thu MXP on top of the Amsterdam departure.
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NTLDaz
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:41 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

I do recall a charter airline flying some sort of regular charter flight. Might have been Thomas Cook.


Thomson (now TUI UK) did for at least one season in the mid 2000s. I'm pretty sure it was LGW-BAH-HKT-SYD on a 767-300.

I believe Airtours International (which became My travel and was then absorbed into Thomas Cook) flew to SYD in the 1990s, but can't remember any details.

EDIT: I found this old thread from 2005 that talks about BY to Sydney and Perth, both once weekly:

viewtopic.php?t=305225#p3401029

The route was LGW-AUH-SIN-SYD/PER so ignore my comment above about BAH/HKT.

Two observations from that thread: it would appear that BY had previously flown to Australia in the 1990s, and that in the early 2000s European Aviation had flown their 742s on charter flights to Australia. Does anyone know anything about those EAL flights?


Just did some research. Britannia flew here late 80's and early 90's. I have a clear recollection of charter flights being advertised because they were so much cheaper.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:37 am

Correct- and then the normal scheduled carrier airfares plummeted and there was no point operating the charters.
 
bananaboy
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:27 pm

NTLDaz wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

I do recall a charter airline flying some sort of regular charter flight. Might have been Thomas Cook.


Thomson (now TUI UK) did for at least one season in the mid 2000s. I'm pretty sure it was LGW-BAH-HKT-SYD on a 767-300.

I believe Airtours International (which became My travel and was then absorbed into Thomas Cook) flew to SYD in the 1990s, but can't remember any details.

EDIT: I found this old thread from 2005 that talks about BY to Sydney and Perth, both once weekly:

viewtopic.php?t=305225#p3401029

The route was LGW-AUH-SIN-SYD/PER so ignore my comment above about BAH/HKT.

Two observations from that thread: it would appear that BY had previously flown to Australia in the 1990s, and that in the early 2000s European Aviation had flown their 742s on charter flights to Australia. Does anyone know anything about those EAL flights?


Just did some research. Britannia flew here late 80's and early 90's. I have a clear recollection of charter flights being advertised because they were so much cheaper.



In the late 90's, the Britannia flights operated via AUH and Batam and not Singapore - I remember Batam as I'd never heard of it before. Each "hop" was around 8 hours. Vaguely remember they had some deal going for super-cheap duty free in Abu Dhabi and they used to market this to potential passengers.

I remember in what I think was their last season (for a while) selling seats for as low as £199 one way!

Edit: just found old trip report on a LGW-BNE flight.
viewtopic.php?p=12672141
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bfitzflyer
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:26 am

I believe Aeroflot flew to Sydney at some point,but can't find the routing or dates.
 
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Re: Past routes from Europe-Australia

Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:25 am

From what I've dug up, twice weekly 1994/1995 SYD-KUL-SVO, but don't know if they had traffic rights to only fly pax SYD-KUL.

Re comment AUH duty free- yes at the time it was a sensational bargain on just about everything.

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