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blacksoviet
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How was Tower Air able to make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:30 pm

American and United had given up on the idea of transcon 747 flights by 1986. After that, 747s were only used as subs or on positioning flights.

Did Tower Air offer kosher meals in Economy?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: How was Tower Air able to make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:43 am

They didn’t make it there; that’s how they went under. They made money on charters, the Haj, UN work; not scheduled service. The TLV service worked for awhile.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: How was Tower Air able to make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:53 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They didn’t make it there; that’s how they went under. They made money on charters, the Haj, UN work; not scheduled service. The TLV service worked for awhile.

Did the 747-100 ever make it to TLV or was TLV a 742-only station?

If Tower Air operated a 747-100 westbound this would have required a tech stop somewhere.
 
strfyr51
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Re: How was Tower Air able t-123's o make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:46 am

blacksoviet wrote:
American and United had given up on the idea of transcon 747 flights by 1986. After that, 747s were only used as subs or on positioning flights.
-1230
Did Tower Air offer kosher meals in Economy?
.
United flew 747;s trans con until the Pan Am Pacific routes were acquired in 1986 when all the 747's were designated to Pacific Service. American's 747-123's were flown by Tower air until United bought the 5 for 10 Million and wound up spending 50 Million refurbing them and the 8 SP21's and 2 SP27's . All the work was done at the Super bay Hangar at SFO
I was a supervisor later on for the ;M' check program where we did an A check every 21-30 days which was all of an A Check part of a B check with heavy engine work as well.
this was before Heavy Maintenance was mostly outsourced. And long before Timco STS and Haeco were even in operation on the scale they are now.
 
strfyr51
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: How was Tower Air able to make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:49 am

blacksoviet wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They didn’t make it there; that’s how they went under. They made money on -238Ne
Haj, UN work; not scheduled service. The TLV service worked for awhile.

Did the 747-100 ever make it to TLV or was TLV a 742-only station?
as
If Tower Air operated a 747-100 westbound this would have required a tech stop somewhere.

Tower did not have the Tech to upgrade the 747-100 because if they did? The Mod brought it up to 750 It's not like the 747-100 couldn't do it. But it couldn't do it with a full boat of passengers and make any money. What was NYC-TLV? 8.5 hours? the 747-233 and -257 at 783K max gross could fly JFK to TLV. the I know the 747-238B at 802K MGWT and the 747-222B at 833K Max gross could fly the route non stop with a full Boat. The 747-100 without the Heavyweight mod couldn't do it.. The Mod brought it up to 750K max gross removed the turbine reversers and added power from the JT9D-3A to the -7ACN.
 
Transpac787
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Re: How was Tower Air able to make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:00 am

Anecdotally, Northwest used the 747-100 on MSP-NRT in a pinch, but at a steep payload penalty. LAX-NRT was about the furthest they tried to schedule the 747-100. To compare the ranges:

LAX-NRT: 4737nm (8773km)
MSP-NRT: 5170nm (9576km)
JFK-TLV: 4934nm (9137km)

So, JFK-TLV is possible on a 741, but at a substantial payload penalty. They'd be leaving a lot of revenue at the gate.

strfyr51 wrote:
8 SP21's and 2 SP27's

I've tried, unsuccessfully, to correct you on this several times. :boggled:

United had 10 SP21's and 1 SP27.

SP21 (x10)
N140UA (former N530PA)
N141UA (former N531PA)
N142UA (former N532PA)
N143UA (former N533PA)
N144UA (former N534PA)
N145UA (former N536PA)
N146UA (former N537PA)
N147UA (former N538PA)
N148UA (former N539PA)
N149UA (former N540PA)

SP27 (x1)
N150UA (former N529PA, N606BN)
 
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millionsofmiles
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:18 am

Re: How was Tower Air able t-123's o make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:52 am

strfyr51 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
American and United had given up on the idea of transcon 747 flights by 1986. After that, 747s were only used as subs or on positioning flights.
-1230
Did Tower Air offer kosher meals in Economy?
.
United flew 747;s trans con until the Pan Am Pacific routes were acquired in 1986 when all the 747's were designated to Pacific Service. American's 747-123's were flown by Tower air until United bought the 5 for 10 Million and wound up spending 50 Million refurbing them and the 8 SP21's and 2 SP27's . All the work was done at the Super bay Hangar at SFO
I was a supervisor later on for the ;M' check program where we did an A check every 21-30 days which was all of an A Check part of a B check with heavy engine work as well.
this was before Heavy Maintenance was mostly outsourced. And long before Timco STS and Haeco were even in operation on the scale they are now.


I’ve already corrected you in a previous thread, but here it is again... NONE of the 747-123s that went to United EVER flew for Tower Air. In fact, Tower NEVER flew a 747-123 at all.
 
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millionsofmiles
Posts: 375
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Re: How was Tower Air able to make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:16 am

1.Tower was never too concerned about delivering exactly what the passengers were promised. Non-stop flights were never a guarantee with Tower, nor was on-time performance. Delays were sometimes measured in days, not hours. Knowing what I know about Tower’s operations, they wouldn’t be too overly concerned about putting a -100 on TLV, and only letting the passengers know about the fuel stop at the last minute.

2. Tower was a failed business model based on the whims of its owner, Morris Nachtomi. Morris employed his family in various managerial capacities, and while delivering a unique experience, Tower never aspired to provide much more than transportation. Tower’s marketing slogan should have been, “You get what you pay for.” Quite frankly, I find Tower to be an entertaining chapter in the annals of US airline history.

Morris ran Metro International, a passenger subsidiary of Flying Tigers that established its niche in the TLV market using 747s. Morris bought the Tower brand from a travel agency and formed Tower Air after acquiring Metro International. It was always run on a wing and a prayer, and the area around the Tower terminal adjacent to the old Pan Am hangar was often littered with 747s in various states of disrepair.

The employees were a loyal; unique and hardworking bunch. They had to be pretty hardy to work for Tower, and they kept that airline going under circumstances which would make most airline employees pull their hair out.

At the end, Morris decided to sell books of tickets at very discounted prices to their frequent flyers in the TLV market. Morris suddenly pulled the plug on Tower, leaving the holders of these ticket books empty-handed.

I really never get tired of hearing old Tower stories. There used to be blogs and trip reports devoted to the horrors of flying Tower all over the Internet. Some still exist, and they are usually entertaining. I was on the Tower Air employee forum on AOL just before the shutdown, and the stories there were worthy of being saved.
 
mmo
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Re: How was Tower Air able to make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:53 am

Transpac787 wrote:
Anecdotally, Northwest used the 747-100 on MSP-NRT in a pinch, but at a steep payload penalty. LAX-NRT was about the furthest they tried to schedule the 747-100. To compare the ranges:



You would generally find the 100's going SEA-NRT or NRT-HNL. Never flew a 100 from LAX-NRT and can't really remember seeing it used on the route because of the big hit in payload.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
blacksoviet
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Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: How was Tower Air able to make so much profit operating 747-100s between LAX and JFK in the 1990's?

Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:31 am

Why didn’t Morris order the 747SP? That should have eliminated the payload issue.

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