MohawkWeekend
Topic Author
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:35 pm

For the second time in 20 years, American taxpayers will be called upon to save the US passenger airlines from disaster. Even after 9/11, it was pretty hard to call for more government control (aside from the Govt taking over security from the airlines). But now the model isn't working so well. And before you say these are one offs - well COVID-19 is Black Swan #2, COVID- 20 might be #3 and Global Warming #4.

The FAA is not really set up to control the economic aspects of this business like the CAB was. The airlines industry has become so concentrated, so powerful that they've become too big to fail. No industry should be Too Big to Fail.

Re-regulation could protect airlines from corporate raiders. It would insure that more cities retained air service as it balanced out revenues from strong markets to those who might not be so profitable. It would serve the greater good. Instead of serving just the shareholder

With the conditions being debated/set for the bailout/loans, there will be some new oversight, Cause as or friends on the other side of the aisle say - we can't keep privatizing profits and socializing the losses.
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    GalaxyFlyer
    Posts: 4910
    Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

    Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:42 pm

    We’re you flying or working in aviation in the CAB era? If so, you wouldn’t be asking this question, it was way worse and inefficient.
     
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    airportugal310
    Posts: 3558
    Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

    Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:44 pm

    I don't understand why OP can't grasp that some industries are more important than others in a complex society, whether OP likes it or not (irrelevant). Posting history of theirs lately across the board is anti-business in general, so not really surprising it escalated to its own thread. Took long enough...
    “They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
     
    bwvilla
    Posts: 34
    Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:27 pm

    Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:52 pm

    Perhaps they could get like the rest of the modern world and loosen or remove these crazy and archaic protectionist rules about requiring airlines operating in the US to be 75% US owned, not permitting foreign airlines to operate domestic US flights, etc. Investment will be needed to reboot the airline industry and so why not let foreign companies be involved, just like US companies are involved in ownership of local businesses in the rest of the world?
    lhr-utc-lhr-sin-bru-cgn-sin
     
    masseybrown
    Posts: 5460
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    Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:57 pm

    I'd favor giving the airlines temporary anti-trust immunity to agree on how to reduce services. The CAB was truly a bureaucratic nightmare and probabaly couldn't be set up fast enough to do anything in this case.
     
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    chepos
    Posts: 7205
    Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

    Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:59 pm

    GalaxyFlyer wrote:
    We’re you flying or working in aviation in the CAB era? If so, you wouldn’t be asking this question, it was way worse and inefficient.

    I can only imagine the continuous bitching on this site if the US industry was regulated again. Everything from, I can’t go visit grandma for less than $700, my favorite airline did not get rights to fly to MKE, Airline XYZ does not have traffic rights to fly to South America, etc, etc, etc.

    That ship sailed, Americans have gotten used to their $200 fares for that Disney trip.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by chepos on Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
    Fly the Flag!!!!
     
    ShinyAndChrome
    Posts: 215
    Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:53 am

    Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:02 pm

    chepos wrote:
    GalaxyFlyer wrote:
    We’re you flying or working in aviation in the CAB era? If so, you wouldn’t be asking this question, it was way worse and inefficient.

    I can only imagine the continuous bitching on this site if the US industry was regulated again. Everything from, I can’t go visit grandma for leas than $700, my favorite airline did not get rights to fly to MKE, Airline XYZ does not have traffic rights to fly to South America, etc, etc, etc.

    That ship sailed, Americans have gotten used to their $200 fares for that Disney trup.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    If there was ever a post on this site worth tattooing on my chest, this is it.
     
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    VirginFlyer
    Posts: 5408
    Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

    Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:12 pm

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    For the second time in 20 years, American taxpayers will be called upon to save the US passenger airlines from disaster. Even after 9/11, it was pretty hard to call for more government control (aside from the Govt taking over security from the airlines). But now the model isn't working so well. And before you say these are one offs - well COVID-19 is Black Swan #2, COVID- 20 might be #3 and Global Warming #4.

    The FAA is not really set up to control the economic aspects of this business like the CAB was. The airlines industry has become so concentrated, so powerful that they've become too big to fail. No industry should be Too Big to Fail.

    Re-regulation could protect airlines from corporate raiders. It would insure that more cities retained air service as it balanced out revenues from strong markets to those who might not be so profitable. It would serve the greater good. Instead of serving just the shareholder

    With the conditions being debated/set for the bailout/loans, there will be some new oversight, Cause as or friends on the other side of the aisle say - we can't keep privatizing profits and socializing the losses.

    If as you’re suggesting with “COVID-20” there will be a repeat of the current situation in a year’s time, the aviation industry and how it is regulated will be among the least of your worries.

    V/F
    It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
     
    argentinevol98
    Posts: 80
    Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 pm

    Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:25 pm

    I am no anti-"Big Government" guy and I often support regulations on business if they protect the consumer and the general public-but I can't see how this would do that at all. Fares were, and most likely go back to being, outrageously high during the CAB regulated era. Additionally, it isn't like airlines didn't go bankrupt under regulation-they still did with some frequency. Look, something like COVID-19 or 9/11 is always going to hammer the aviation industry. It is a particularly exposed industry given the gargantuan costs and fairly low profit margins it pulls. Even if you go back to regulation the airlines will still be exposed-it's not like airlines will have to stop paying for fuel or will stop having to drop hundreds of millions and even billions of $$$ on new aircraft-losing revenue in a time of crisis like this will still put them in jeopardy. In the meantime the consumer, your average American, whom the government has the actual duty to protect and serve (not the airline corporations), will get absolutely screwed with high fares and limited options. I can't see a functional argument in favor of it.
    "He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
     
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    Jetsgo
    Posts: 2742
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    Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:31 pm

    airportugal310 wrote:
    I don't understand why OP can't grasp that some industries are more important than others in a complex society, whether OP likes it or not (irrelevant). Posting history of theirs lately across the board is anti-business in general, so not really surprising it escalated to its own thread. Took long enough...


    Hello Police? I'd like to report a murder.

    /thread
    Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
     
    MohawkWeekend
    Topic Author
    Posts: 106
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

    Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

    Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:36 pm

    To those who wonder -
    I flew as a passenger during the CAB years and it was, well sorry to say really good. The crews seemed happy and those were very difficult jobs to get. The planes roomy, service was good. And you could look at a time table and know exactly what the price of a flight was tomorrow or 3 weeks from today. It was the same.
    I worked in the industry post CAB, the pay wasn't very good and the employees weren't very happy. But maybe that was just my station.

    Anti-Business? I worked in the private sector my whole career, own a bunch of stocks and vote republican. And the airline industry is important. Couldn't one argue that if it is that important, that it needs more regulation. I offer for example the Boeing Company.

    I had hoped that this debate would be civil and discuss the merits of re- regulation to save an industry that right now will not survive without Govt intervention. What do I know though. But I have a feeling there are a bunch of people in Washington who will very soon be telling the airlines a whole lot about how they will operate going forward.
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      WROORD
      Posts: 747
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      Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

      Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:48 pm

      [quote="MohawkWeekend"]To those who wonder -
      I flew as a passenger during the CAB years and it was, well sorry to say really good. The crews seemed happy and those were very difficult jobs to get. The planes roomy, service was good. And you could look at a time table and know exactly what the price of a flight was tomorrow or 3 weeks from today. It was the same.
      I worked in the industry post CAB, the pay wasn't very good and the employees weren't very happy. But maybe that was just my station.

      I flew during the CAB years as well and the reason why the crews were happy and the planes were cleaner was that very few people actually could afford to fly and those that did had some standards. Everyone was nicely dressed and courteous you did not have people in sweat pants clipping their nails. The negative side was that smaller communities were underserved or not served at all. Moreover, the airlines themselves created some of the mess by weeding out the competition (some mergers were not justified economically they were done to get rid of competition i.e United and Continental or USAir and American) and reducing the travel experience to a cattle car with fees for everything. When there was no bag fee, most people checked luggage and the overhead bins were mostly empty, now there is a boarding zoo.
       
      sprxUSA
      Posts: 347
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      Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

      Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:13 am

      Um there were a lot more smaller cities served in CAB days. Rockford,IL; Youngstown, OH; Ely, NV all see rved via big jets, now nothing. Although schedules may have been a bit inconvenient. But then fuel was cheap enough to fly 40 people on a 737 from MCI to Topeka, Manhattan, and Salina,KS then on to Denver.
      Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
       
      GalaxyFlyer
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      Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

      Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:53 pm

      They could also compete on best wine list in coach or whose stewardesses made the best Caesar salads. Yes, I used stewardess, too, just for old times flavor
       
      evank516
      Posts: 2042
      Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

      Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

      Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:00 pm

      Yes, lots of smaller communities had air service, but they were part of milk runs too. How many stops did it take to get to your destination? Did you want to fly from PBI to NYC via MLB, DAB, and JAX first or do you enjoy the plethora of nonstop flights and the hub and spoke model which reduces stops to 1 or even zero if you live in a major hub.
       
      e38
      Posts: 659
      Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

      Re: Civil Aeronautics Board - Time to re-regulate?

      Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:29 am

      Quoting evank516 (Reply # 15), “Did you want to fly from PBI to NYC via MLB, DAB, and JAX first or do you enjoy the plethora of nonstop flights . . .”

      I also flew as a passenger during the regulated (CAB) era. I remember traveling from Denver Stapleton Airport (DEN) to Houston Intercontinental Airport (IAH) aboard a Continental Airlines Boeing 727-224 sometime around 1975 and the flight stopped at Colorado Springs, Albuquerque, Lubbock, Midland/Odessa, and San Antonio.

      Sure, it took much longer to get to Houston than it would have had it been a nonstop, but there was a printed timetable and you knew exactly what time you would arrive at your destination . . . and, it was still faster than driving.

      Also, as an aviation enthusiast, I found it fascinating landing at all the intermediate airports.

      As mentioned above, the environment at airports and aboard the airplanes seemed to be much more civilized and dignified.

      I do not remember the fares being extremely high, and I was in college at the time (mid 1970s).

      But, no, we will not return to a regulated system.

      e38

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