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morrisond
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How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:30 pm

Given that NMA/NSA is probably a long way from reality - how Capable could an 737-10ER be?

With the -10 Stretch I would have to assume that the -10 tail is larger than optimal - but would this allow more thrust which in turns allows more fuel to be carried and MTOW to grow?

How much more thrust could they get out of the LEAP engines within say 2-3 years (when Airliner demand may recover)?

According to Wiki the original concept was with an higher thrust Engine and strengthened wing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX

Any idea of what MTOW they were contemplating?

Is the MAX Wing not larger than A321 with more fuel capacity?

Could they not do the same as the A321 and build additional tankage into the Cargo Bay?

How far could it fly with what MTOW?

At least this topic won't be as depressing as all the other ones about how much production will decline.
 
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par13del
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:44 pm

Until Boeing comes up with something more than a levered gear to prevent tail strikes, the appeal of the lower weight long range MAX a/c will be tempered by the tons of concrete needed to get it off the ground.
If the a/c is RTS and the back log of A321-XXXX keeps growing, clients will be tempted, unfortunately, if you are leaning for a reason to go elsewhere, the take off performance can be a deal breaker.
 
morrisond
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:16 pm

par13del wrote:
Until Boeing comes up with something more than a levered gear to prevent tail strikes, the appeal of the lower weight long range MAX a/c will be tempered by the tons of concrete needed to get it off the ground.
If the a/c is RTS and the back log of A321-XXXX keeps growing, clients will be tempted, unfortunately, if you are leaning for a reason to go elsewhere, the take off performance can be a deal breaker.


It's not as bad as you are assuming if you dig into the ACAPS.

The A321 NEO at 101T looks like about 9,500'. The 739 is about 10,500.

A thrust bump on the -10 could do wonders.
 
chiad
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:46 pm

morrisond wrote:
par13del wrote:
Until Boeing comes up with something more than a levered gear to prevent tail strikes, the appeal of the lower weight long range MAX a/c will be tempered by the tons of concrete needed to get it off the ground.
If the a/c is RTS and the back log of A321-XXXX keeps growing, clients will be tempted, unfortunately, if you are leaning for a reason to go elsewhere, the take off performance can be a deal breaker.


It's not as bad as you are assuming if you dig into the ACAPS.

The A321 NEO at 101T looks like about 9,500'. The 739 is about 10,500.

A thrust bump on the -10 could do wonders.


Ah .. that sounds easy.
I wonder why Boeing hasn't done it.
 
strfyr51
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:59 pm

chiad wrote:
morrisond wrote:
par13del wrote:
Until Boeing comes up with something more than a levered gear to prevent tail strikes, the appeal of the lower weight long range MAX a/c will be tempered by the tons of concrete needed to get it off the ground.
If the a/c is RTS and the back log of A321-XXXX keeps growing, clients will be tempted, unfortunately, if you are leaning for a reason to go elsewhere, the take off performance can be a deal breaker.


It's not as bad as you are assuming if you dig into the ACAPS.

The A321 NEO at 101T looks like about 9,500'. The 739 is about 10,500.

A thrust bump on the -10 could do wonders.


Ah .. that sounds easy.
I wonder why Boeing hasn't done it.

they haven't done it because it would cut into their Hustle! Boeing has been sandbagging. they already have the technology. They want to Not make the 737 Completely obsolete as a viable airframe even though the 737-9 is about as good as it's going to Get on that Airframe. the 797 I think would replace it.. I would not now PAY list price for a 737. Any 737!! Though Airbus really has nothing Better! Theirs is available though.
 
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keesje
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:02 pm

An -10ER would be great, if it was technical feasible. Indeed rotation angle / take-off speed might be a limit.


strfyr51 wrote:
I would not now PAY list price for a 737. Any 737!! Though Airbus really has nothing Better! Theirs is available though.


I guess the NEO has always been bit better than the MAX.
- ability to carry containers/ pallets up 1t each.
- higher payload
- better airfield performance
- engine choice
- better sfc engines than the LEAP B (e.g. LEAP-A)
- quieter, spacier cabin
- cockpit commonality with A330/A340
- version that can do 180 passenger 4700NM
- good redundancy on critical sensors
- full flight envelop protection
- FAL's in America, Europe and Asia.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
travelhound
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:26 pm

With the outbreak of the Coronavirus I suspect we will see a significant fundamental shift in leisure travel resulting in reduced demand for aircraft in the A321LR space.

If a post Coronavirus aviation industry is 10% smaller, there will be a surplus of approximately 1500 aircraft. Interestingly, the heart of the narrow body market could take a step back in time and centre around the 737-8 \ A320, not the A321. I suspect, if Airbus can get the pricing right the A220 could even become the aircraft of choice.

For the 5000nm market, reduced demand for long range flights with 787 size aircraft could see these aircraft rescheduled to take on a combination of long and medium haul flights.

For me, there are currently too many unknowns. If I was an airline, at this stage I wouldn’t want to be reinventing my medium range network around an A321 sized aircraft, when there could be an oversupply of aircraft economically capable of performing the route.

If my reasoning is correct, the limitations of the 737 airframe may end up benefiting Boeing (less cancellations).
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:33 pm

par13del wrote:
Until Boeing comes up with something more than a levered gear to prevent tail strikes, the appeal of the lower weight long range MAX a/c will be tempered by the tons of concrete needed to get it off the ground.
If the a/c is RTS and the back log of A321-XXXX keeps growing, clients will be tempted, unfortunately, if you are leaning for a reason to go elsewhere, the take off performance can be a deal breaker.

In Boeings defense, the potential TATL routes (in my mind thats what the OP is thinking about) are operated in to airports that have long enough runways to begin with.

If a thrust bump-resulting 10ER allows enough performance to fly SNA/BUR-MDW/ISP then thats gravy.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
morrisond
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:14 pm

I don't think Boeing has done it as the Engines were not available and the compromises to take the LEAP 1B to say 31-32K take off Thrust may reduce it's efficiency - not so big deal with OIL under $40 a barrel.

I also don't think Boeing did it (but back in 2016 this is what they were essentially contemplating with a strengthened wing and more thrust which I presume meant more MTOW) as it would have cut too much into a potential NMA - that back then was(NMA) not as large as what it sounds like it morphed into pre MAX crisis.

Given that NMA is dead for a very long time and NSA sounds like it will be a decade as they wait for new tech - why would they not do this now?

This would be a low cost program to help keep it alive until 2030. It's not like the Engine makers will be working on much either - WB demand will be in the toilet and not justify new investment.

First - I have to correct something from above with LEAP 1B28 Engines the -9 actually only needs about 8,500' of Runway according to the ACAPS - I must have have been looking at the lower thrust 1B27 Option.

https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... X_RevE.pdf

It's not the runway Hog people are assuming - with the Levered gear an -10 should be more than acceptable.

The really interesting option could be an 738-ER with the 9/10 wing and -10 Levered Gear and more thrust - how capable would that be?

With 1B28's it's takeoff length requirement is only 6,700' - pretty sporty. Levered gear and even without more thrust - MTOW should be able to grow to -10 MTOW and still have more than acceptable runway performance.

That could be a really interesting option for the 2020's reduced demand decade to keep route structures intact.

That frame could potentially get above 5,000NM with an -10 MTOW - it looks like it has enough internal fuel to easily get past 4,000nm without aux tanks.

If Boeing doesn't do something like this (ER versions of -8 and -10) what else are they going to do?

Most of the cost would be born CFM anyways. The other changes (other than carving out part of the hold for fuel like Airbus has done for the XLR) are minimal cost relatively speaking and help to restore parity in the market.

The -8ER seems really easy to do - the big question remains - how much of an MTOW increase for the -10 was Boeing contemplating in the beginning and how far could that take it with a good load of passengers?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:55 pm

Can the 737-10 get revised flaps and slats like the A321 did? The double slotted flaps on the A321 are heavy resulting in higher fuel burn on shorter missions. Unless airlines desire more range over efficiency, I see why Boeing wouldn’t add them.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:04 pm

morrisond wrote:
That frame could potentially get above 5,000NM with an -10 MTOW - it looks like it has enough internal fuel to easily get past 4,000nm without aux tanks.

If Boeing doesn't do something like this (ER versions of -8 and -10) what else are they going to do?


I would suggest they do an entirely new narrowbody - Airbus, too, to be introduced in ~10 years.

At 5,000nm you seem to be proposing this as a range-replacement for 757/767/NMA, under the 787-8.

There's certainly room in financial analysis for very minorly improved aircraft done on minimal capital budgets. However, you can't cross a chasm in two leaps (nor twenty). The 777 (large, long range twin) and 787 (very long range twin with a smaller increment of capacity and carbon fiber tube) were big leaps. It's time for Boeing to stop diddling around with the narrowbodies.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:12 pm

I think this is a moot point. The Leap 1A is already pretty much at is limits, so probably no higher MTOW. The 737-10 is a very limited. The tradeoff is whether you want to carry payload or fuel. You can install ACTs, but that only reduces payload.
 
morrisond
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:28 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
I think this is a moot point. The Leap 1A is already pretty much at is limits, so probably no higher MTOW. The 737-10 is a very limited. The tradeoff is whether you want to carry payload or fuel. You can install ACTs, but that only reduces payload.


Besides the MAX using 1B's and it sounds like there will be an 35K 1A option at some point - back in 2016 Boeing was contemplating a thrust bump.

5-6 Years later that should be quite doable.

I believe they were also contemplating an even longer -10 than what they ended up with, with a MTOW bump.

The new levered gear may give them more MTOW capacity than many are assuming - given they can get the right engines.
 
morrisond
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:33 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
That frame could potentially get above 5,000NM with an -10 MTOW - it looks like it has enough internal fuel to easily get past 4,000nm without aux tanks.

If Boeing doesn't do something like this (ER versions of -8 and -10) what else are they going to do?


I would suggest they do an entirely new narrowbody - Airbus, too, to be introduced in ~10 years.

At 5,000nm you seem to be proposing this as a range-replacement for 757/767/NMA, under the 787-8.

There's certainly room in financial analysis for very minorly improved aircraft done on minimal capital budgets. However, you can't cross a chasm in two leaps (nor twenty). The 777 (large, long range twin) and 787 (very long range twin with a smaller increment of capacity and carbon fiber tube) were big leaps. It's time for Boeing to stop diddling around with the narrowbodies.


I'm assuming the 738 could be over 5,000nm, the -10 may be more like 4,200-4,500nm as I don't think they will be able to bump the MTOW much more than 95T or so.

I suggest they do a new narrow body as well - but something a lot more radical from a control/cockpit standpoint and aero wise - that will take a lot of time.

Until such time what would you suggest they do?

An 738-ER using 737-10 Parts could EIS in 2023 - 737-10 ER 12-18 months later for minimal investment. They would help stretch out the production line until the new bird is ready and generate the cash to pay for it.
 
Max Q
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:17 pm

So after two fatal accidents with the Max directly attributed to inadequate flight control design which was cobbled together to deal with higher thrust engines you want to give it even more power?!


It’s time to retire this ancient, tired, compromised old design


Boeing should have stopped with the NG, a good aircraft but that was enough


It’s done, move on, clean sheet next
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
morrisond
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:21 pm

Max Q wrote:
So after two fatal accidents with the Max directly attributed to inadequate flight control design which was cobbled together to deal with higher thrust engines you want to give it even more power?!


It’s time to retire this ancient, tired, compromised old design


Boeing should have stopped with the NG, a good aircraft but that was enough


It’s done, move on, clean sheet next


And what will Boeing do for the next ten years then?

A Max 8ER doesn't necessarily need more power - just the 9-10 Wing and -10 Levered Gear.

The -10 should be able to take more thrust with the same control authority as the -9 assuming it has the same tail due to the longer moment arm.
 
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par13del
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:40 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
par13del wrote:
Until Boeing comes up with something more than a levered gear to prevent tail strikes, the appeal of the lower weight long range MAX a/c will be tempered by the tons of concrete needed to get it off the ground.
If the a/c is RTS and the back log of A321-XXXX keeps growing, clients will be tempted, unfortunately, if you are leaning for a reason to go elsewhere, the take off performance can be a deal breaker.

In Boeings defense, the potential TATL routes (in my mind thats what the OP is thinking about) are operated in to airports that have long enough runways to begin with.

If a thrust bump-resulting 10ER allows enough performance to fly SNA/BUR-MDW/ISP then thats gravy.

MDW would be interesting, unless a carrier just uses the a/c for TATL runs, a quick turn or two for higher utilization would be beneficial. South America runs could be included, its just that the a/c is climbing uphill, the sales compared to the A321 speaks volumes.
Unfortunately, the current double crisis has put a crimp in the MAX-10 development, we may never know how good it could have been if the ultimate replacement of the 737 is the next thing on the drawing boards.
 
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par13del
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:51 pm

morrisond wrote:
And what will Boeing do for the next ten years then?

Offer up the 737 replacement now with existing technology which is available to remove all of the limitations of the 737.
When you look at the price they have paid for two fatal crashes that prior to the virus had not sent the company to chpt.11, we can surmise that if they had chosen to do more for the MAX or even the NSA it would not have cost what it is costing them today, of course hindsight is.....

The MAX right now does not have parity, performance wise it may but performance is only 1 criteria in a/c purchase. In my opinion, if a NSA today only achieves parity with the competitor, the additional room for expansion / updates would make it worth it, there will be no exclusive tech coming down the pipe that will only be available to Boeing.
 
astuteman
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:13 pm

morrisond wrote:
par13del wrote:
Until Boeing comes up with something more than a levered gear to prevent tail strikes, the appeal of the lower weight long range MAX a/c will be tempered by the tons of concrete needed to get it off the ground.
If the a/c is RTS and the back log of A321-XXXX keeps growing, clients will be tempted, unfortunately, if you are leaning for a reason to go elsewhere, the take off performance can be a deal breaker.


It's not as bad as you are assuming if you dig into the ACAPS.

The A321 NEO at 101T looks like about 9,500'. The 739 is about 10,500.

A thrust bump on the -10 could do wonders.


Can I confess to being challenged by the notion that
a 3,500Nm 180 pax plane taking 10,500ft when
a 4,700Nm 200 pax plane takes 9,500ft
is "not as bad as you are assuming".
It's still a pretty bad comparison.

If you come down to the c. 93t MTOW that an A321 NEO needs to achieve the same 3,500Nm as the 737-9, the field length required drops to less than 8,000ft

Rgds
 
argentinevol98
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:25 pm

Could this perhaps be more feasible on the 7M9? Jack it up with the -10s landing gear and give it a thrust bump? That might help fix the tail strike risk issue easier than trying to do work on the -10. It would be at a competitive disadvantage size-wise with the A321LR/XLR but it might be cheap enough to justify. I don't know enough to be clear on this, maybe someone else could clarify?
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
FluidFlow
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:35 pm

morrisond wrote:
Max Q wrote:
So after two fatal accidents with the Max directly attributed to inadequate flight control design which was cobbled together to deal with higher thrust engines you want to give it even more power?!


It’s time to retire this ancient, tired, compromised old design


Boeing should have stopped with the NG, a good aircraft but that was enough


It’s done, move on, clean sheet next


And what will Boeing do for the next ten years then?

A Max 8ER doesn't necessarily need more power - just the 9-10 Wing and -10 Levered Gear.

The -10 should be able to take more thrust with the same control authority as the -9 assuming it has the same tail due to the longer moment arm.


Why add weight with the lever gear, the -8 has no rotation problems so there is no need for that at all.
 
morrisond
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:35 pm

astuteman wrote:
morrisond wrote:
par13del wrote:
Until Boeing comes up with something more than a levered gear to prevent tail strikes, the appeal of the lower weight long range MAX a/c will be tempered by the tons of concrete needed to get it off the ground.
If the a/c is RTS and the back log of A321-XXXX keeps growing, clients will be tempted, unfortunately, if you are leaning for a reason to go elsewhere, the take off performance can be a deal breaker.


It's not as bad as you are assuming if you dig into the ACAPS.

The A321 NEO at 101T looks like about 9,500'. The 739 is about 10,500.

A thrust bump on the -10 could do wonders.


Can I confess to being challenged by the notion that
a 3,500Nm 180 pax plane taking 10,500ft when
a 4,700Nm 200 pax plane takes 9,500ft
is "not as bad as you are assuming".
It's still a pretty bad comparison.

If you come down to the c. 93t MTOW that an A321 NEO needs to achieve the same 3,500Nm as the 737-9, the field length required drops to less than 8,000ft

Rgds


Actually I corrected that above with LEAP 1B28 the -9 is about 8,500' - Presumably if it had the -10 gear it would do better.
 
morrisond
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:37 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Max Q wrote:
So after two fatal accidents with the Max directly attributed to inadequate flight control design which was cobbled together to deal with higher thrust engines you want to give it even more power?!


It’s time to retire this ancient, tired, compromised old design


Boeing should have stopped with the NG, a good aircraft but that was enough


It’s done, move on, clean sheet next


And what will Boeing do for the next ten years then?

A Max 8ER doesn't necessarily need more power - just the 9-10 Wing and -10 Levered Gear.

The -10 should be able to take more thrust with the same control authority as the -9 assuming it has the same tail due to the longer moment arm.


Why add weight with the lever gear, the -8 has no rotation problems so there is no need for that at all.


If there is no rotation problem then - or if takeoff performance could not be increased then with it - no worries - you may just need the -9 Gear (if it is different than -8 gear) to handle a MTOW Bump.
 
oldJoe
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:17 pm

Do we talk about an aircraft without a maiden flight ? Boeing has other things to solve than a "ER" version
 
astuteman
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:19 pm

morrisond wrote:
astuteman wrote:
morrisond wrote:

It's not as bad as you are assuming if you dig into the ACAPS.

The A321 NEO at 101T looks like about 9,500'. The 739 is about 10,500.

A thrust bump on the -10 could do wonders.


Can I confess to being challenged by the notion that
a 3,500Nm 180 pax plane taking 10,500ft when
a 4,700Nm 200 pax plane takes 9,500ft
is "not as bad as you are assuming".
It's still a pretty bad comparison.

If you come down to the c. 93t MTOW that an A321 NEO needs to achieve the same 3,500Nm as the 737-9, the field length required drops to less than 8,000ft

Rgds


Actually I corrected that above with LEAP 1B28 the -9 is about 8,500' - Presumably if it had the -10 gear it would do better.


LOL. I think we did this one a few months ago, didn't we?
I'd forgotten.
Good catch.
Rgds
 
travelhound
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:46 pm

par13del wrote:
morrisond wrote:
And what will Boeing do for the next ten years then?

Offer up the 737 replacement now with existing technology which is available to remove all of the limitations of the 737.
When you look at the price they have paid for two fatal crashes that prior to the virus had not sent the company to chpt.11, we can surmise that if they had chosen to do more for the MAX or even the NSA it would not have cost what it is costing them today, of course hindsight is.....

The MAX right now does not have parity, performance wise it may but performance is only 1 criteria in a/c purchase. In my opinion, if a NSA today only achieves parity with the competitor, the additional room for expansion / updates would make it worth it, there will be no exclusive tech coming down the pipe that will only be available to Boeing.


If I remember correctly an upgrade if the 737 avionics was considered for the MAX, but was knocked back by the major 737 operators because they wanted the MAX and NG to have the same type rating.
 
oldJoe
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:55 pm

travelhound wrote:
par13del wrote:
morrisond wrote:
And what will Boeing do for the next ten years then?

Offer up the 737 replacement now with existing technology which is available to remove all of the limitations of the 737.
When you look at the price they have paid for two fatal crashes that prior to the virus had not sent the company to chpt.11, we can surmise that if they had chosen to do more for the MAX or even the NSA it would not have cost what it is costing them today, of course hindsight is.....

The MAX right now does not have parity, performance wise it may but performance is only 1 criteria in a/c purchase. In my opinion, if a NSA today only achieves parity with the competitor, the additional room for expansion / updates would make it worth it, there will be no exclusive tech coming down the pipe that will only be available to Boeing.


If I remember correctly an upgrade if the 737 avionics was considered for the MAX, but was knocked back by the major 737 operators because they wanted the MAX and NG to have the same type rating.


What are the major operators ?
 
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par13del
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:48 pm

travelhound wrote:
If I remember correctly an upgrade if the 737 avionics was considered for the MAX, but was knocked back by the major 737 operators because they wanted the MAX and NG to have the same type rating.

Last big issue we had with that was the NG, MAX biggest hurdle was the inability to fit the optimal size fan, the enhancements are all engine, raising the gear could have been the sole focus.
 
klkla
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:54 pm

morrisond wrote:
Given that NMA/NSA is probably a long way from reality - how Capable could an 737-10ER be?


A 737-10ER couldn't be as capable as the A321 unless they add lengthened landing gear all the way around. And if they did that they would have to re-certify the aircraft.

But that might actually might not be so bad. Re-certifying a stretched 737 would still be less expensive than developing an all new aircraft. They should stretch it so that it has two more rows than the A321, stretch the landing gear so they can hang the same bigger engines that Airbus is using and tweak any other incremental changes. The end product would perform as well or better than the competition.
 
RalXWB
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:10 pm

morrisond wrote:
Max Q wrote:
So after two fatal accidents with the Max directly attributed to inadequate flight control design which was cobbled together to deal with higher thrust engines you want to give it even more power?!


It’s time to retire this ancient, tired, compromised old design


Boeing should have stopped with the NG, a good aircraft but that was enough


It’s done, move on, clean sheet next


And what will Boeing do for the next ten years then?

A Max 8ER doesn't necessarily need more power - just the 9-10 Wing and -10 Levered Gear.

The -10 should be able to take more thrust with the same control authority as the -9 assuming it has the same tail due to the longer moment arm.


What are you talking about? They all have the same wing not to mention that the difference between the 9 and 10 is only 2 rows.
 
Silverstreak
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:27 pm

The deserts are full of “the latest and greatest” new airliners.
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:54 pm

It might make a very fast bus? Literally and figuratively, it will not get off the ground!
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:29 pm

Can we get the -10MAX in the air before this hypothetical Boeing MTOW increase comes into play again. Like seriously I've heard everything on here. By the way when is the 280t 787-10ER coming that will end the 777X and the A350 series alone?
 
Strato2
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:40 pm

travelhound wrote:
If my reasoning is correct, the limitations of the 737 airframe may end up benefiting Boeing (less cancellations).


ROFL. You think Airbus will not accommodate their customers choosing whatever they have on the menu on the A320-series. Instead they will flock to the grounded MAX like no tomorrow.
 
travelhound
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:20 am

Strato2 wrote:
travelhound wrote:
If my reasoning is correct, the limitations of the 737 airframe may end up benefiting Boeing (less cancellations).


ROFL. You think Airbus will not accommodate their customers choosing whatever they have on the menu on the A320-series. Instead they will flock to the grounded MAX like no tomorrow.


The A320/21 and A321LR fundamentally cover two different segments of the market. With the advent of the Coronavirus the assumptions made about the A321LR market may no longer be true. As Boeing doesn’t have a plane in the A321LR space, it is not overly exposed to that market segment and as such has a limited risk of loosing sales in that market segment. As Airbus probably has 2000 sales in this market segment, as a consequence they will have a higher risk of loosing sales.

I hope that makes sense.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:02 am

klkla wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Given that NMA/NSA is probably a long way from reality - how Capable could an 737-10ER be?


A 737-10ER couldn't be as capable as the A321 unless they add lengthened landing gear all the way around. And if they did that they would have to re-certify the aircraft.

But that might actually might not be so bad. Re-certifying a stretched 737 would still be less expensive than developing an all new aircraft. They should stretch it so that it has two more rows than the A321, stretch the landing gear so they can hang the same bigger engines that Airbus is using and tweak any other incremental changes. The end product would perform as well or better than the competition.


The gear on the 10 can't get longer without major changes taking place. New wingbox and a major change to the wings to get the taller gear out further ala 757, A32X. That's not going to be cheap.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
planecane
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:12 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
klkla wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Given that NMA/NSA is probably a long way from reality - how Capable could an 737-10ER be?


A 737-10ER couldn't be as capable as the A321 unless they add lengthened landing gear all the way around. And if they did that they would have to re-certify the aircraft.

But that might actually might not be so bad. Re-certifying a stretched 737 would still be less expensive than developing an all new aircraft. They should stretch it so that it has two more rows than the A321, stretch the landing gear so they can hang the same bigger engines that Airbus is using and tweak any other incremental changes. The end product would perform as well or better than the competition.


The gear on the 10 can't get longer without major changes taking place. New wingbox and a major change to the wings to get the taller gear out further ala 757, A32X. That's not going to be cheap.


So then Boeing could just do a 757MAX and the fish will fly for the next 40 years.

For anybody that can't figure it out I'm joking. Need to entertain myself stuck at home all day.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:14 am

planecane wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
klkla wrote:

A 737-10ER couldn't be as capable as the A321 unless they add lengthened landing gear all the way around. And if they did that they would have to re-certify the aircraft.

But that might actually might not be so bad. Re-certifying a stretched 737 would still be less expensive than developing an all new aircraft. They should stretch it so that it has two more rows than the A321, stretch the landing gear so they can hang the same bigger engines that Airbus is using and tweak any other incremental changes. The end product would perform as well or better than the competition.


The gear on the 10 can't get longer without major changes taking place. New wingbox and a major change to the wings to get the taller gear out further ala 757, A32X. That's not going to be cheap.


So then Boeing could just do a 757MAX and the fish will fly for the next 40 years.

For anybody that can't figure it out I'm joking. Need to entertain myself stuck at home all day.

Put the Max wing on the 757 and the ultrafan!
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
PHLspecial
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:32 am

What specs are going for? The 737 Max 10 has a range of 3300 nmi. I'm assuming you want a range of 4000 nmi plus for the ER version. That would take some work from Boeing to do. Strengthen the landing gear, more fuel, tweak the wings. That just to complete with the A321LR, what about the XLR? Can the Max carry 200 passengers for 4700 nmi? That is a big ask for Boeing even with the PIP for the Leap 1B. Yes Boeing should come out with the max ER version but max 9 since it can fly further already.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:33 am

Max Q wrote:
So after two fatal accidents with the Max directly attributed to inadequate flight control design which was cobbled together to deal with higher thrust engines you want to give it even more power?!

...except that thrust per se wasn't what was causing that effect.

Repositioning of the engine('s weight) forward and upwards of the wing + aerodynamics of the nacelle design, worked in concert to create an upward pitch of the MAX's nose.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
morrisond
Topic Author
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:35 pm

Here is a good article from 2015 talking about an 738-ERX with -9 MTOW - It could be a great Post Civid World Bird

https://leehamnews.com/2015/03/12/draft ... to-a321lr/

And if you read through the MAX wiki 31,000 LB LEAP 1B's were contemplating back in 2016 so they should be doable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_73 ... 170310-134
 
morrisond
Topic Author
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:51 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
What specs are going for? The 737 Max 10 has a range of 3300 nmi. I'm assuming you want a range of 4000 nmi plus for the ER version. That would take some work from Boeing to do. Strengthen the landing gear, more fuel, tweak the wings. That just to complete with the A321LR, what about the XLR? Can the Max carry 200 passengers for 4700 nmi? That is a big ask for Boeing even with the PIP for the Leap 1B. Yes Boeing should come out with the max ER version but max 9 since it can fly further already.


I'm guessing they could get to 4,000NM'ish at 95T. Or call it a real range of 3,500-3,700NM with Reserves and using LR values for Peoples weight and baggage.
 
asr0dzjq
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:15 pm

Max Q wrote:
So after two fatal accidents with the Max directly attributed to inadequate flight control design which was cobbled together to deal with higher thrust engines you want to give it even more power?!

It’s time to retire this ancient, tired, compromised old design

Boeing should have stopped with the NG, a good aircraft but that was enough

It’s done, move on, clean sheet next

Or, you know, you could at least make an attempt at using your brain?

LAX772LR wrote:
...except that thrust per se wasn't what was causing that effect.

Repositioning of the engine('s weight) forward and upwards of the wing + aerodynamics of the nacelle design, worked in concert to create an upward pitch of the MAX's nose.

Thank you. Finally someone who knows what's really going on.
R.I.P. Douglas Aircraft Company
Born 22 July 1921 | Died 23 May 2006
You will be missed, but your management will not.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
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Re: How Capable could an 737-10ER be?

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:08 pm

keesje wrote:
An -10ER would be great, if it was technical feasible. Indeed rotation angle / take-off speed might be a limit.


strfyr51 wrote:
I would not now PAY list price for a 737. Any 737!! Though Airbus really has nothing Better! Theirs is available though.


I guess the NEO has always been bit better than the MAX.
- ability to carry containers/ pallets up 1t each.
- higher payload
- better airfield performance
- engine choice
- better sfc engines than the LEAP B (e.g. LEAP-A)
- quieter, spacier cabin
- cockpit commonality with A330/A340
- version that can do 180 passenger 4700NM
- good redundancy on critical sensors
- full flight envelop protection
- FAL's in America, Europe and Asia.


What is SFC?
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