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jetwet1
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United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:08 am

United refused to refund as passenger after his 3 flights were cancelled due to covid 19. United offered travel vouchers.

Monday the passengers attorney filed suit in Chicago.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... efund-fare
 
eamondzhang
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:23 am

UA is not the first and wont be the last

Down here QF and VA are both doing the same

Same goes for most cruise lines, airlines, travel agencies etc.

Unless you want airlines (and all other businesses which you prepay for service for that matter) to shut down for good, I can only say this person's a real idiot

Michael
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:27 am

eamondzhang wrote:
UA is not the first and wont be the last

Down here QF and VA are both doing the same

Same goes for most cruise lines, airlines, travel agencies etc.

Unless you want airlines (and all other businesses which you prepay for service for that matter) to shut down for good, I can only say this person's a real idiot

Michael


How is that fair? I understand the circumstances are unique here, but United cancelled the flights which is a breach of their contract. No pity for UA here from me. AA and DL refunded me no questions asked when the same thing happened to me last month.
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32andBelow
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:51 am

Might as well refund the credit card companies are just going to force it.
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:53 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Unless you want airlines (and all other businesses which you prepay for service for that matter) to shut down for good, I can only say this person's a real idiot


That's a breach of contract. No company is above the law, even if jobs are at stake. And even more when they are begging for public help.
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scbriml
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:05 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Unless you want airlines (and all other businesses which you prepay for service for that matter) to shut down for good, I can only say this person's a real idiot


Airlines sometimes have my money for months before a flight. If they cancel it (for whatever reason) a full refund should be a reasonable option for me as their customer. In these particular circumstances, there's zero guarantee the airline will offer the same service at the same price or even still be in business when this is over. This makes UA look really bad (again). I'm not seeing the same idiot you are.

gatibosgru wrote:
How is that fair? I understand the circumstances are unique here, but United cancelled the flights which is a breach of their contract. No pity for UA here from me. AA and DL refunded me no questions asked when the same thing happened to me last month.


It's grossly unfair. I was due to take a two-week trip to China in just over a week, my itinerary included eight flights - Emirates x 4, China Eastern x 2, China Southern and Cathay Dragon. All those flights were cancelled by the airlines or rescheduled so much it blew my itinerary out completely. They all paid a full refund and promptly.
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EA CO AS
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:16 am

jetwet1 wrote:
United refused to refund as passenger after his 3 flights were cancelled due to covid 19. United offered travel vouchers.

Monday the passengers attorney filed suit in Chicago.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... efund-fare


Were the specific flights he was ticketed for cancelled, though? The lawsuit never actually states that.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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max999
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:55 am

https://onemileatatime.com/swiss-flight-refund/

LH Group, United's trans-Atlantic JV partner, is taking the refund thievery and scamming to a whole new level. According to this article, LH will approve refunds, but the refund processing is on hold indefinitely. I think LH is doing this so they can argue they are technically following the law for refunds, but they want to still hold on to cash that belongs to you.

:mad:
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:00 am

max999 wrote:
https://onemileatatime.com/swiss-flight-refund/

LH Group, United's trans-Atlantic JV partner, is taking the refund thievery and scamming to a whole new level. According to this article, LH will approve refunds, but the refund processing is on hold indefinitely. I think LH is doing this so they can argue they are technically following the law for refunds, but they want to still hold on to cash that belongs to you.

:mad:


I had to refund a flight and it is somewhat true. The lady on the phone told me that we will get our flights refunded but it will take 2-3 months untill we actually get the money. So lets see, that was 3 weeks ago. Not the best service, luckily I do not need the money right now but I actually expect it to be processed withing days not months...
 
Toinou
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:02 am

I have no idea what the rules are in the US but in the UE the rule is absolutely clear: if the flight is cancelled, passenger is entitled to a full refund, no matter the reason.

eamondzhang wrote:
Unless you want airlines (and all other businesses which you prepay for service for that matter) to shut down for good, I can only say this person's a real idiot


Frankly speaking, as a customer, you don't really have reasons but think about that. You paid for serviced, it is not delivered, you must have your money back. If you are absolutely sure you will travel again, with the same airline, in a rather short time, you may be happy with a voucher but for most people, especially at present time, this is not an option.

I'm always impressed to see people placing company's interests before those of people.
Last edited by Toinou on Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
max999
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:05 am

eamondzhang wrote:
UA is not the first and wont be the last

Unless you want airlines (and all other businesses which you prepay for service for that matter) to shut down for good, I can only say this person's a real idiot

Michael


There are tens of millions of people all over the world who just got laid off. Many of them will have a hard time paying rent and buying food to eat. Many of those unemployed people also have cancelled airline tickets. They deserve their cash so they can feed themselves.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
jomur
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:40 am

Many countries are also changing thier laws to allow vouchers to be issued in lieu of cash.
At the end of the day do you make the companies repay all the cash now and go out of business in days or allow vouchers which will mean they can survive until this is all over and then they can give a cash refund?
 
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vhtje
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:46 am

eamondzhang wrote:
UA is not the first and wont be the last

Down here QF and VA are both doing the same



QF defaulted to a voucher, but gave me a refund when I contacted them and asked. No quibbles, and it was processed quickly.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:50 am

I have no problem getting a voucher now that I have practically 3 years to use it.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:52 am

jetwet1 wrote:
United refused to refund as passenger after his 3 flights were cancelled due to covid 19. United offered travel vouchers.

Monday the passengers attorney filed suit in Chicago.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... efund-fare


The U.S. DOT jumped in last week and issued an enforcement notice to carriers that they must give passengers a refund if requested when flights are cancelled or significantly delayed. (As was every carriers' practice pre-Covid-19, dating to DOT enforcement orders back to 1996.) Carriers must contact passengers who had already received vouchers and offer them a refund.

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing ... t-covid-19
 
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scbriml
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:03 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
I have no problem getting a voucher now that I have practically 3 years to use it.


Out of interest, where do you get to spend that voucher if the airline doesn't make it out of this mess? No such problem with a full refund. Personally, I'd rather have my money in my bank account than 'saved' with an airline. IMHO, there are just too many risks with a voucher in the current environment.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:58 pm

I thought the airline offering a 120% credit of the paid amount if passenger agreed to wait one year was a excellent offer. IIRC after a year the passenger could get the 100% refund.
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scbriml
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:02 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I thought the airline offering a 120% credit of the paid amount if passenger agreed to wait one year was a excellent offer. IIRC after a year the passenger could get the 100% refund.


Great, but what happens to your 120% if the airline goes bust?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
invertalon
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:13 pm

I agree, if the flight is cancelled it should be an immediate refund. It is not right any other way.
 
Toinou
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:16 pm

I guess we could say you are both right : if a customer is ready to trade the risk of the airline going bankrupt with a bonus on its voucher, no problem. The problem lies in the case when the customer is forced to accept the voucher.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:31 pm

Meanwhile, De Juniac is beyond tone-deaf on this topic:

LONDON (Reuters) - Global airlines cannot afford to refund cancelled flights because of the coronavirus crisis, said the head of the industry’s representative body IATA, and carriers are issuing vouchers instead as they conserve cash to survive.
“The key element for us is to avoid running out of cash so refunding the cancelled ticket for us is almost unbearable financially speaking,” IATA Director General Alexandre De Juniac told an online news conference on Tuesday.


Carriers can't keep the money if they aren't providing the contracted service. In the U.S. that means same operating carrier, about the same time & day, and a comparable routing: non-stop for non-stop, direct for direct (not: Your non-stop has become a 3-segment, 14-hour odyssey). That's what it has meant for more than twenty years.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21P1WY
 
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scbriml
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:38 pm

Toinou wrote:
I guess we could say you are both right : if a customer is ready to trade the risk of the airline going bankrupt with a bonus on its voucher, no problem. The problem lies in the case when the customer is forced to accept the voucher.


As long as the customer is given a choice of full refund or full (or better) value voucher, then that's fine in my book. If the customer still wants to take the risk on the voucher, then it's their call. Not offering a full refund is morally wrong (given hardship the customer might potentially be facing today) and probably illegal in many jurisdictions.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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PBITran
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I thought the airline offering a 120% credit of the paid amount if passenger agreed to wait one year was a excellent offer. IIRC after a year the passenger could get the 100% refund.


Great, but what happens to your 120% if the airline goes bust?


And what happens if you get hit by a bus before you can use the voucher? :roll:
I don't know how you can say it is "grossly unfair" when you have no idea what alternative flight he was offered.
 
PBITran
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:45 pm

invertalon wrote:
I agree, if the flight is cancelled it should be an immediate refund. It is not right any other way.


If your flight is cancelled due to a mechanical is it an immediate refund?
Airlines are permitted to offer alternate transportation and the people saying how horribly unfair this is have no idea what he was offered.
And the fact that this guy filed a lawsuit in 3 days shows he isn't particularly interested in working out a solution.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:51 pm

jomur wrote:
Many countries are also changing thier laws to allow vouchers to be issued in lieu of cash.
At the end of the day do you make the companies repay all the cash now and go out of business in days or allow vouchers which will mean they can survive until this is all over and then they can give a cash refund?

And what if that airline doesn't survive the crisis and you, the passenger, got screwed several hundreds or thousands of [whatever currency you use]?
If the customer request a refund, since the services you paid for weren't rendered, the provider (airline) must issue a refund on the spot.
 
bob75013
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:58 pm

At least for flights that takeoff or land in the United States, the federal Department of Transportation rules apply:

1) If the airline cancels, the airline must refund if requested, and that applies to corollary fees such as seat fees, too.

2) The is no refund requirement when the passenger cancels while the flight is still available for booking, and airlines are not refunding.

FWIW, many airlines have inserted the DOT rule in their respective Contracts of Carriage.
 
Flaps
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:00 pm

Its not unlike banks limiting withdrawals in order to prevent a run on the bank and subsequent collapse. Both parties have valid claims and concerns. In the case of the airline, collapse rolls over to effect tens of thousands of employees which in turn sends those ripples through the entire economy. In the case of the passenger the personal impact may be significant but is a vastly smaller ripple in the overall economy. In normal times I agree 100% on the side of the passenger. These aren't normal times. Personally I fall right in the middle 50/50 in this particular situation. Possibly easier for me to take the middle ground because I have nothing currently invested in future air travel. I am also not employed by one specific airline but a service provider to 6 carriers plus adhoc passenger and cargo charters. Regardless, some portion of that business will remain when this is over. I am thankful for that every day. Having been through 9/11, SARS and 2008, that security has not always been there for me.

There are no clear winners here. Only losers and maintainers. This situation is not the passengers fault but it isn't the airlines fault either. Why should only one side take the hit when in truth everyone is in this together? Perhaps some effort should be put into finding a middle ground?
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:17 pm

I feel for both sides of this. This is how I am handling it, but by no means am I saying this is how everyone should be handling it.

I had plane tickets on Delta and hotel reservations (with a local Tokyo hotel) for the Olympics for a total of $7,000 prepaid. Obviously, that's not happening this year.

I have no qualm about keeping the value of those tickets in vouchers for Delta. Yes, there is a risk it will be worth nothing, but what little I can do to help them stay afloat, I am willing to do because assuming they survive (and I very much hope they do), I know I will use it - whether for the Olympics or some other trip we take when this is all over. My biggest bummer is that I got TPA-DTW-HND in Premium Select for $1,900 per ticket and I doubt I am going to be able to get that deal next year.

The hotel on the other hand I desired a refund because I am not sure if I will stay at that hotel - especially if heaven forbid - this goes on way longer and the 2021 Olympics get cancelled. This also was a much higher nightly rate than what I would spend at that type of hotel even if I could spend it later (i.e. it's about 30 days worth of stays for the 6 I had booked).

That's just me. But as Flaps said, there are only losers and maintainers here, no winners. Do what you can to help one another, but don't take food out of your families mouths to do so.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
ericm2031
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:37 pm

I think there is a lot of confusion out there as most people are cancelling their tickets before the airline cancels the flights and are feeling they are entitled to a refund. If the airline cancels the flight, I can see why that'd result in a refund, but also could see this as an easy scapegoat to get a refund because usually the airline can still get you to your destination...unless for whatever reason travel is completely cut off there.
 
EasternSon
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Re: United facing class action over refunds

Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:42 pm

I had planned to take my mother to Scotland in May for her 75th birthday. Booked in early February on United. Decided we needed to cancel, based on the fact that my mother is not only 75, but has a compromised immune system as a result of lymphatic cancer 30 years ago.
The flight fell into United's parameters, as far as booking and cancellation windows, to qualify for a full refund. But, they still only gave me a travel voucher. I fought, and they said I needed to provide a note from my mother's doctor prohibiting her travel. I did that too.

Haven't heard back from them in two full weeks about whether I'll actually see a refund.

Might think about hopping onto this class action suit.
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