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davidjohnson6
Topic Author
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Fifth Freedom routes

Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:29 pm

Once Covid has diminished and scheduled pax flying starts to normalise (ie borders reopen, etc), what do people think will happen to 5th Freedom flying ?
Clearly demand will be lower in 2021 than it was in 2019, and many routes will see a reduction in demand. Where those routes are less than 7x weekly, will airlines simply reduce frequency (or close a route) or will they instead use tag-ons, and try to take advantage of 5th freedom possibilities ?
 
myki
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:43 am

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:22 pm

It is too wide and varied. Is there a particular market, region or airline you are interested in?
 
davidjohnson6
Topic Author
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:42 pm

I'm interested particularly in Europe (geographical, not just EU). I'm wondering whether airlines from outside Europe will rely on their European partners, or if we will see a sudden influx of tag ons
 
Galwayman
Posts: 913
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:58 pm

I can’t see any impact on 5 th freedoms - they exist mainly in Asia or Europe where the populations are sufficient to support them .

Possibly US airlines will hunker into Dublin, Amsterdam or Heathrow using code shares but they stopped 5 th freedom flying in Europe years ago and they’re not really competitive
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7535
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:00 pm

Smaller aircraft where necessary, EK ran an A380 SYD-CHC, currently meant to return with a 77W from July, still up in the air really. The A380 goes to SYD so that’s what CHC got, 77W would be better suited for CHC anyway, good chance the A380 will return sometime I would think.
 
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eta unknown
Posts: 2875
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:06 pm

Reality is, with a few exceptions, tag-ons are expensive to operate as you usually require a second crew and/or additional hotel room nights and ground transport. In days of high airfares all those costs could be offset or recuperated.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2875
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:12 pm

One possibility I can see is if airlines are required to slot squat at places like LHR. I remember AA did that a number of years ago to hold an LHR slot by flying LHR-BRU as a 5th freedom tag in order to hold their slot. Might have been post-2008 financial crisis.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 813
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:15 pm

There is a good writeup on Wiki decribing the various Freedoms of the Air. It is well worth a read...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
 
xwb777
Posts: 962
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:09 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
Smaller aircraft where necessary, EK ran an A380 SYD-CHC, currently meant to return with a 77W from July, still up in the air really. The A380 goes to SYD so that’s what CHC got, 77W would be better suited for CHC anyway, good chance the A380 will return sometime I would think.


According to routesonline post, Emirates will keep the A380 on SYD-CHC route
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... kQldk7QOVI
 
yeginleduc
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:12 pm

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:33 pm

This might work for some Asian routes like AC/CP bringing back the YVR-HKG-BKK route and being able to sell the HKG-BKK segment to Asian consolidators and tour companies. The ME3 seemed to be able to make it work between BKK-HKG and BKK-ICN. I think Air India did some routes in Asia too that were 5th freedom?
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7535
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Fifth Freedom routes

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:37 pm

xwb777 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Smaller aircraft where necessary, EK ran an A380 SYD-CHC, currently meant to return with a 77W from July, still up in the air really. The A380 goes to SYD so that’s what CHC got, 77W would be better suited for CHC anyway, good chance the A380 will return sometime I would think.


According to routesonline post, Emirates will keep the A380 on SYD-CHC route
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... kQldk7QOVI


I saw that the earlier update had it as a 77W, I can’t see EK needing 3 A380s a day to SYD at this time, freight lift would be needed though and the 77W is a beast at that.

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