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Clydenairways
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Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:11 am

With news stories doing the rounds that mention when lockdowns start to get eased and slowly opened up again, there will still will be a need to preserve social distancing measures. until a vaccine is widely available.
For aviation this will probably require flights to operate with only certain seats occupied throughout the cabin, which creates an economic penalty until aircraft can return to maximising full seating capacity.
Which aircraft type layouts do we think are best placed to take advantage of social distancing measures with the lowest percentage reduction in occupied seats? Regional aircraft with 2 X 2 layout seating? Standard A320/737 with 3 X 3 layout seating, or widebody types with various different abreast seating layouts.

Do any of these layouts have a temporary advantage over others?
 
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Antaras
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:41 am

Or basically blocking the middle and aisle seats, have a look at Bamboo Airways:
Image

Shell-style F and C seats can be also considered as "safe".
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LHA320
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:47 am

Clydenairways wrote:
With news stories doing the rounds that mention when lockdowns start to get eased and slowly opened up again, there will still will be a need to preserve social distancing measures. until a vaccine is widely available.
For aviation this will probably require flights to operate with only certain seats occupied throughout the cabin, which creates an economic penalty until aircraft can return to maximising full seating capacity.
Which aircraft type layouts do we think are best placed to take advantage of social distancing measures with the lowest percentage reduction in occupied seats? Regional aircraft with 2 X 2 layout seating? Standard A320/737 with 3 X 3 layout seating, or widebody types with various different abreast seating layouts.

Do any of these layouts have a temporary advantage over others?


The A380 would be the perfect aircraft for social distancing. Two decks which could be separated and 3-4-3 in Y class could be used as 2 - 2 - 2. But it will screw all of your profits and would kill your airline (if you're not state owned by a middle eastern country)
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
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GCT64
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:53 am

3X3 seems to be more efficient in terms of LF for distancing (4 seats occupied out of 6) and 3x3x3 (6 seats out of 9) than 767s, A330s, E175s etc. with double seats.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
Clydenairways
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:10 pm

GCT64 wrote:
3X3 seems to be more efficient in terms of LF for distancing (4 seats occupied out of 6) and 3x3x3 (6 seats out of 9) than 767s, A330s, E175s etc. with double seats.


Will that be enough though? It doesn't leave much space between passengers. Surely you need two seats free between pax?
 
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GCT64
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:20 pm

Clydenairways wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
3X3 seems to be more efficient in terms of LF for distancing (4 seats occupied out of 6) and 3x3x3 (6 seats out of 9) than 767s, A330s, E175s etc. with double seats.


Will that be enough though? It doesn't leave much space between passengers. Surely you need two seats free between pax?


Not according to Bamboo (see earlier in thread) or Easyjet:
https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/16/easyjet- ... -12564663/
"EasyJet expects to keep its middle seats empty when it resumes flying to enable social distancing."
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
Wacker1000
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:22 pm

A pressurized tube with recycled air - I have my doubts about the effectiveness of empty seats.
 
tvh
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:29 pm

LHA320 wrote:
Clydenairways wrote:
With news stories doing the rounds that mention when lockdowns start to get eased and slowly opened up again, there will still will be a need to preserve social distancing measures. until a vaccine is widely available.
For aviation this will probably require flights to operate with only certain seats occupied throughout the cabin, which creates an economic penalty until aircraft can return to maximising full seating capacity.
Which aircraft type layouts do we think are best placed to take advantage of social distancing measures with the lowest percentage reduction in occupied seats? Regional aircraft with 2 X 2 layout seating? Standard A320/737 with 3 X 3 layout seating, or widebody types with various different abreast seating layouts.

Do any of these layouts have a temporary advantage over others?


The A380 would be the perfect aircraft for social distancing. Two decks which could be separated and 3-4-3 in Y class could be used as 2 - 2 - 2. But it will screw all of your profits and would kill your airline (if you're not state owned by a middle eastern country)


Don't forget that tickets are going to be a lot more expansive. Less people wanting to fly, but those who do will have to pay more.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:27 pm

A 6 abreast one aisle with middle seats blocked gives 66% load factor, which is, while not good, not terrible. Anyone have the chart to give CASM in that case for the 320/737 in the various models?
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nws2002
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:31 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
A pressurized tube with recycled air - I have my doubts about the effectiveness of empty seats.


Only about half the air at any given time is recycled and that air is passed through HEPA filters. The bigger risk is being close to someone onboard who sneezes or coughs before the air is recirculated.
 
Western727
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:36 pm

What about families or those that live together? My family of 4 had a trip planned to DXB last month that we postponed to US Thanksgiving (last week of November), and it's on a 380. Since we live together already, wouldn't it make sense to seat us together?
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:36 pm

In North America, pre 1978 era fare prices are going to be returning so Legacy, Mainline, and Flag Carrier Airlines are able to maintain connectivity to the places they have traditionally served.

For how long and how soon the question remains. Air travel is essential for the nations of the world, in war time, in times of national calamity, and in good times.

Adaptability is the key.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:41 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 6 abreast one aisle with middle seats blocked gives 66% load factor, which is, while not good, not terrible. Anyone have the chart to give CASM in that case for the 320/737 in the various models?


Regulation era load factors.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:51 pm

The Bede BD-5 clearly has the best advantage due to features it shares with a relatively limited number of other aircraft. The US Air Force also has several aircraft with similar arrangements that protect against biological threats. :D

Humidity may play a role in transmission effectiveness. There has been a fair amount of discussion about elevated humidity (compared to typical ranges) possibly reducing spread to some degree. There is also the possibility that abnormally low humidity does similar. There's no conclusions yet that I know of, but if true, than newer types with higher humidity cabins may be higher risk environments.

Clydenairways wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
3X3 seems to be more efficient in terms of LF for distancing (4 seats occupied out of 6) and 3x3x3 (6 seats out of 9) than 767s, A330s, E175s etc. with double seats.


Will that be enough though? It doesn't leave much space between passengers. Surely you need two seats free between pax?


There is nothing magic about specific numbers like 2 meters, and 2 seats wouldn't result in 2 meters spacing anyways. In general, increasing distance decreases risk. Other measures help mitigate scenarios where significant distance can't be maintained, such as wearing face masks so an infectious individual is not able to expel contagious droplets as far.

Distance on the aircraft will likely be a secondary measure, however, compared to reducing rate of community transmission, and increasing testing and contact tracing so that there is a low probability of people boarding flights unaware that they have the virus or have been exposed to it.
 
Aither
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:02 pm

Considering schools are being reopened in the first impacted countries this makes social distancing a nonsense after the peak of the infection.

The real topic should be regional distancing and this is where it will become a nightmare for the big connectors like Emirates.

So the problem is not the aircraft, it's the network.
Never trust the obvious
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:14 pm

Any narrow body cabin configuration in a

1-2-2
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
AirbusA6
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:20 pm

Just blocking middle seats, you can seat 4 people in a 3-3 layout and 6 in a 3-3-3 layout, i.e. 2/3 of the Y seats. Every other layout seems less efficient, as with any bank of 2 or 4 seats, you have to block half of them.

Being in the aisle seat is less attractive than the window seat though, as you'll have loads of people walking past you, and presumably it's easier for droplets to travel down the aisle with no seats to block their path...
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KrustyTheKlown
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:39 pm

As no aircraft that I know of has an air distribution system that guarantees that passengers are not breathing air exhaled by other passengers, what is needed until a vaccine is widely available is making N95 respirators mandatory [and hopefully complementary as they are hard to find in stores].

Airlines should also be establishing their own respirator supply lines with legitimate manufacturers as not to end up using the counterfeited **** with which China is flooding the global markets.

This would be a more effective solution than merely blocking every other seat or modifying the air distribution systems.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:08 pm

With appropriate filtration and intake of new air (and with all vents throughout the plane opened?) there is less passenger to passenger air exchanged. This all is statistical, so the question or problem is to reduce the chances of disease spread. Hence a technical/statistical answer is needed. LOL, not me.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:19 am

tvh wrote:
Don't forget that tickets are going to be a lot more expansive. Less people wanting to fly, but those who do will have to pay more.


That remains to be seen, it's by far not guaranteed.

With still many concerns about traveling demand will be low, which will put pressure on the fares. I don't expect it to be that much more expensive, just normal regular fares. That's enough to capture the little demand there is and still remain social distancing. Any airline with too high fares will price itself out of the market and thus gets 0% load factors.
 
tvh
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:37 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
tvh wrote:
Don't forget that tickets are going to be a lot more expansive. Less people wanting to fly, but those who do will have to pay more.


That remains to be seen, it's by far not guaranteed.

With still many concerns about traveling demand will be low, which will put pressure on the fares. I don't expect it to be that much more expensive, just normal regular fares. That's enough to capture the little demand there is and still remain social distancing. Any airline with too high fares will price itself out of the market and thus gets 0% load factors.


Currently the demand is very low but prices are very high.
 
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AmricanShamrok
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:53 am

Wacker1000 wrote:
A pressurized tube with recycled air - I have my doubts about the effectiveness of empty seats.

This. And also, what's the point of blocking middle seats if the seats directly in front of and behind you are occupied? Moisture droplets carrying the virus do not just travel laterally...

I think blocking seats is a pointless exercise. Until a vaccine/treatment is widely available, I think people will need to take personal responsibility when flying such as using face masks, respiratory etiquette or not flying at all if displaying any symptoms. Airports will also need to play their part in terms of temperature screening and enforcing physical distancing where possible pre-departure and post-arrival. Even with all these measures, travellers will still need to be aware of the risk involved.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:46 pm

Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing? Anything, given the light loads. Even a Cessna 172 would do the trick.
 
mhkansan
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:51 am

I think Embraer 145 would be a good candidate. You could block the 'B' aisle seat and still get a 68% potential loadfactor since rows 1 & 2 are solo seats only.
 
workhorse
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:44 pm

The Tu-114 :)

Image
 
Austin787
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:42 pm

Any airplane with suites which are fully enclosed - meaning floor-to-ceiling walls and door. Like Emirates new 777 First, Etihad Residence, etc.
 
ZKNCI
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:58 pm

Assuming this refers to airliners (not explicitly stated, so one could highlight the advantages of a single seater like the local P-40 ;) ) and that the requirement is for no directly adjacent seat to be occupied, then surely nothing can beat the Beech 1900D?
1-1 seating, no one is next to each other at 100% load. While other aircraft like the Metro have the same layout, having to bend over in the aisle isn't great for maintaining separation, vs the taller cabin on the D.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Which aircraft types have best advantage for social distancing?

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:30 pm

No aircraft type is best. They are all equally terrible, at the end of the day droplets can easily hang in the air, while not as long as in still air like in our rooms and houses, it's going to be easily spread in very tight and enclosed spaces.

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