Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
MD8090orDRIVE
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:01 pm

Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:06 am

I used to love some of the odd-ball routes the CAB assigned airlines back in the regulated era. What are some of the strangest that any of you can remember?

I used to enjoy flying some crazy milk runs back in the day. One of my favorites was Seattle to Tucson via Yakima, Pasco, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Phoenix on Hughes Airwest. I loved that flight though my mother and father thought I was nuts.

I'm not just looking for wild milk runs that have had topics on here but just some head-scratching routings that were assigned airlines.
 
User avatar
deltacto
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:49 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:22 am

Northeast flew Chicago - Cleveland - Manchester .... also Chicago - Detroit - Burlington as shown on this map from 1969

http://www.departedflights.com/NE060169.html

Image

and later on Los Angeles - Miami
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7791
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:07 am

Delta was flying PWM-BTV-ORD on a DC-9 in 1980. Milk runs with jets connected tertiary cities to major cities, instead of thousands of flights by 50-passenger aircraft non-stop to megahubs.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5664
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:11 pm

Southern flew Memphis-Tupelo-Columbus, MS; rode on it on summer evening. Ozark flew CMI-LGA on their -9s.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5640
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:19 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Ozark flew CMI-LGA on their -9s.


OZ actually flew PIA-CMI-IAD-LGA and return. I was on the PIA-CMI-IAD v.v. flights many times to visit family in NoVa. OZ did operate PIA-LGA off and on but I don't recall CMI-LGA operating, always the stop at IAD IIRC. OZ also had a DEN-SUX-PIA-CMI-IAD-LGA and return sometimes. The early morning flight heading east out of PIA occasionally originated in SPI, I guess to get the politicos to DC.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
loranfair
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:42 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:31 pm

deltacto wrote:
Northeast flew Chicago - Cleveland - Manchester .... also Chicago - Detroit - Burlington as shown on this map from 1969

http://www.departedflights.com/NE060169.html

Image

and later on Los Angeles - Miami

One of the Chicago flights ended in Bangor and the other in Portland. It was odd to be boarding a flight to Boston and have another DC-9 sitting on the Bangor ramp.
 
JFKCMILAXFLL
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:45 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:33 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Ozark flew CMI-LGA on their -9s.


OZ actually flew PIA-CMI-IAD-LGA and return. I was on the PIA-CMI-IAD v.v. flights many times to visit family in NoVa. OZ did operate PIA-LGA off and on but I don't recall CMI-LGA operating, always the stop at IAD IIRC. OZ also had a DEN-SUX-PIA-CMI-IAD-LGA and return sometimes. The early morning flight heading east out of PIA occasionally originated in SPI, I guess to get the politicos to DC.


Sounds like flight 906, my mother and I flew that several times when she was in graduate school at the University of Illinois and we returned to our native NYC to visit. 906 turned around and became 909. Don't know where 909 went after CMI. It's a shame, the Champaign-Urbana metro area has at least twice as many people now as when I was there (early 70s), yet CMI is now limited to American Eagle ERJ-145s to DFW and ORD (and I think recently -175s to CLT). Deregulation sucks sometimes. :(

The last few times I visited C/U, I flew into Chicago and drove down. Chicago-C/U on I-57 has to be one of the easiest 2-hour drives around (at least it was the last time I did it in 2006). Much better than LA-San Diego, about the same distance, that I did a few times when I lived in the L. A. area.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:43 pm

My one example of such a routing was in January, 1975, flying Fort Smith, AR, (FSM) to the brand-new Kansas City International (MCI) via Fayetteville Drake Field (FYV) and Joplin, MO (JPL). I believe the flight originated at an also-nearly-brand-new DFW airport, but I am not 100% certain.

The CV 580 Frontier flew were durable beasts, but they vibrated until you thought your teeth were going to fall out!
 
JettNC
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:47 pm

Back in the 1970s multi hops on majors were much more common than they were 10 years later when the CAB ended in the mid 1980s. For example, March 1973 a 72S, DL Flight 200 route IAH-BPT-SHV-ATL-LGA-PWM-BGR. That was Houston departure at 1:22 PM Central with end of day BGR arrival at 10:30 PM Eastern . I remember it was difficult to book a flight then with more than 2 intermediate stops.
Since online booking did not begin until the early 90's you previously needed a travel agent or a direct call to the airline to book the flights.
 
chrisjake
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:19 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:50 pm

deltacto wrote:
Northeast flew Chicago - Cleveland - Manchester .... also Chicago - Detroit - Burlington as shown on this map from 1969

http://www.departedflights.com/NE060169.html

Image

and later on Los Angeles - Miami


I believe the CLE flight went into Burlington and the Detroit flight went to Manchester. When NE merged with Delta, Delta kept the Burlington-Cleveland route and IIRC it then went BTV-CLE-DTW-ORD and was CLE's only Delta service for years.
 
User avatar
deltacto
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:49 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:51 pm

Another one is National's San Francisco to Atlanta ... their only route to Atlanta

Image

http://www.departedflights.com/NA070174.html
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:23 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:24 pm

iirc NW flew msn-ord-cle back in the day (early 80s) and republic flew mke-ord
Bus Driver
 
User avatar
727tiger
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:22 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:27 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Ozark flew CMI-LGA on their -9s.


OZ actually flew PIA-CMI-IAD-LGA and return. I was on the PIA-CMI-IAD v.v. flights many times to visit family in NoVa. OZ did operate PIA-LGA off and on but I don't recall CMI-LGA operating, always the stop at IAD IIRC. OZ also had a DEN-SUX-PIA-CMI-IAD-LGA and return sometimes. The early morning flight heading east out of PIA occasionally originated in SPI, I guess to get the politicos to DC.



I seem to recall OZ flew a SGF-TBN-COU-STL milk run at some point in a -9 before the TWA merger. I was on the COU-STL leg one time. If TBN was not part of that route, then I know the route went SGF-COU-STL.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:38 pm

I recall flying Braniff (original Braniff) DFW-MCI-DSM-MSP. The equipment was always a 727.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5664
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:43 pm

JFKCMILAXFLL wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Ozark flew CMI-LGA on their -9s.


OZ actually flew PIA-CMI-IAD-LGA and return. I was on the PIA-CMI-IAD v.v. flights many times to visit family in NoVa. OZ did operate PIA-LGA off and on but I don't recall CMI-LGA operating, always the stop at IAD IIRC. OZ also had a DEN-SUX-PIA-CMI-IAD-LGA and return sometimes. The early morning flight heading east out of PIA occasionally originated in SPI, I guess to get the politicos to DC.


Sounds like flight 906, my mother and I flew that several times when she was in graduate school at the University of Illinois and we returned to our native NYC to visit. 906 turned around and became 909. Don't know where 909 went after CMI. It's a shame, the Champaign-Urbana metro area has at least twice as many people now as when I was there (early 70s), yet CMI is now limited to American Eagle ERJ-145s to DFW and ORD (and I think recently -175s to CLT). Deregulation sucks sometimes. :(

The last few times I visited C/U, I flew into Chicago and drove down. Chicago-C/U on I-57 has to be one of the easiest 2-hour drives around (at least it was the last time I did it in 2006). Much better than LA-San Diego, about the same distance, that I did a few times when I lived in the L. A. area.


That’s the Ozark flight, I forgotten where it stopped enroute to LGA.
 
BAINY3
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:16 pm

Some examples from Minneapolis:

- Allegheny only flew MSP-BUF rather than something that would have made more sense for them, like MSP-PIT. As of 1977, it seems to be their only major city spoke that didn't also have PIT or PHL service (with the exception of Memphis, but that was just because Tennessee services were combined and you had to go MEM-BNA-PIT or MEM-BNA-PHL), and MSP was also the only major city spoke in the Allegheny network that didn't have service to at least two destinations.
- Braniff flew MSP-OMA, MSP-DSM, and MSP-STL which did not really make sense from a network perspective. Braniff was huge in Texas and also had a decent number of connections at MCI, so MSP-DFW and MSP-MCI made sense. But OMA, DSM, and STL didn't even have onward service to Texas. The routes in 1977 were MSP-OMA-MCI, MSP-DSM-MCI, MSP-DSM-STL, and MSP-STL-MCI. Rather odd.
- Eastern was so inconsistent and apparently had a ton of route authorities that it would turn on and off. During the 1960s, to get from MSP to anywhere else in EA's network, you had to connect at ORD or MKE (and MKE itself in turn only further connected to ORD until 1970 or so). This changed in the 1970s but the destinations varied so widely. Once MSP-ATL was authorized, it remained consistent, but the other flights seemed to vary a lot whether or not they existed, such as MSP-IND, MSP-TPA, MSP-CVG, and MSP-MIA. It also appears that by 1972, EA still had MSP-ORD and MSP-MKE on their route map but these were not listed as valid destinations in the timetable, so I have to wonder if EA didn't have local O&D authority on those routes.
- By the 1970s, Northwest had mostly ceded the Upper Midwestern milk run/small city market to North Central, but there were a couple of weird ones that they held onto up until deregulation, such as MSP-RST-MSN-ORD/MKE and YWG-GFK-FAR-JMS-BIS-Montana.
- The weird thing about United from MSP during the regulation era is that it was seemingly only allowed to fly east from MSP. United was already huge in Denver and the west coast, but you couldn't even fly MSP-DEN on UA back then. UA flew MSP-ORD, which makes sense, but the other destinations are surprising as they seemingly flew to a ton of northeastern cities that seem out of place today, such as MSP-PHL, MSP-LGA, MSP-DCA, and MSP-BOS.
- By 1978, Western was a major player at MSP and was the primary carrier to lots of big western cities. For example they were the first to have authority on MSP-LAX, MSP-PHX, among others. Almost all of Western's 1978 destinations from MSP are major routes today (except for MSP-RNO, which has come and gone a few times). But there is one oddball exception: MSP-FSD-PIR-RAP-CPR-SLC. Western had very few small-city milk runs but that was one of them.

Other stray observations I noticed, not involving Minneapolis:
- In 1977, Braniff had some service to SFO and LAX, but they were for Latin America services only and were completely disconnected from the rest of Braniff's domestic network.
- In 1972, the furthest south you could get on North Central was Kansas City, but you could only get there on an FSD-SUX-MCI run, which is strange for an airline that was mostly based around MSP, MKE, and DTW. NC had service from MKE to CVG, DAY, and CMH, which is not weird, but what is weird is that they also linked those cities directly with a CVG-DAY-CMH run, which is strange since these cities were otherwise spokes and Ohio in general was not in their core region.
- Ozark had some weird ones by 1978. Most of their network was based around ORD and STL, plus a ton of local services in Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri. Shortly before deregulation, the CAB was already becoming a bit looser with what it would offer to the local service carriers. Ozark had odd routes like DEN-SUX, DEN-ALO, DEN-SGF, BNA-SGF, LGA-IAD-CMI, PHL-IND, ATL-PIA, and ATL-MLI. It is weird how these "outer spokes" never had direct STL or ORD service but instead connected to random small cities in the middle of their network.
- While most of United's network focused on what have always been their strong markets (transcons from the Northeast to California, with Chicago and Denver as big intermediate connection points, plus north-south flights on the west coast and some Hawaii services), United also weirdly had a bunch of short local flights in the Carolinas.
- As I mentioned earlier, Western had very few milk runs but instead focused on longer flights or at least major cities. But they had one strange milk run that went SLC-PIH-IDA-WYS-BTM-HLN-GTF-YYC-YEG. There was also a simpler Denver-Canada one that was DEN-CPR-SHR-BIL-GTF-YYC-YEG. Two other interesting routes: YVR-HNL and SEA-ADQ.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5640
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:19 pm

727tiger wrote:

I seem to recall OZ flew a SGF-TBN-COU-STL milk run at some point in a -9 before the TWA merger. I was on the COU-STL leg one time. If TBN was not part of that route, then I know the route went SGF-COU-STL.


TBN was gone on OZ by 1980. SGF-COU-STL sounds right. There was also a milk run STL-SGF-JLN-TUL-DFW OZ operated for years. Another one I remember is STL-PIA-CID-RST-MSP. On Saturday only it operated STL-PIA-MLI-CID-RST-MSP.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
departedflights
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:30 pm

Not necessarily odd routes but odd routes given CAB restrictions:

In the 1970s, United operated flights between Kansas City and Denver and between Kansas City and Chicago, BUT was not allowed to carry any local traffic on those flights.

From the timetable:

"United cannot carry traffic between Chicago and Kansas City; Kansas City and Denver unless the preceding point or next point shown on the ticket is served by United Air Lines."
The opinions are expressed are my own and do not represent those of anyone else, including my coworkers or my employer.
 
ZazuPIT
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:56 pm

In 1970 when I was 13 and our connecting flight from LAX-STL-BNA on TWA was missed, we flew OZ, F27 via (I'm naming some of the cities since the codes are obscure, and I am lazy) STL-Marion-Cape Girardeau-Paducah-Clarksville/Ft. Campbell-BNA , I loved it, folks hated it.
 
User avatar
WALmsp
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:39 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:42 pm

BAINY3, Thanks or the MSP memories!

I traveled to Minnesota for summers as a kid on my uncle's farm and always begged my dad for the MSP-FSD-PIR-RAP-CPR-SLC (or its reverse) but he always picked the nonstop. I got to fly part of NC's run from MSP-Mankato-Fairmont (where I got off)-Wilmington-SUX-DEN.
In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
 
PI4EVR
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:29 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:06 pm

The local service airlines faced hurdles in getting route awards from the CAB once they wanted to expand into jet equipment, primarily to protect the "turf" of the big airlines and their services.
In 1969 new airlines into Chicago could only fly into Midway as the trunk airlines had moved the majority of their flights to ORD. Local service carriers wanting to serve Washington could only serve IAD, hence the OZ and SO services that began via IAD on to LGA. PI had an established operation at DCA, but was required to serve IAD if any new Washington service was requested or new flights to LGA or EWR had to stop in IAD. Years earlier when PI added BAL (BWI today) all flights had to stop in DCA in both directions. Connections from other cities could be made in DCA to get to BAL. And many an adult and youngster had their first airplane ride on a PI plane to/from BAL.
Another authority the CAB applied to a PI route was that any airplane originating in ATL and terminating in LGA had to make at least 2 stops enroute with a single flight number. I somewhat fondly remember flight 030 a 737-200 that operated Atlanta-Kinston NC-Fayetteville NC-Washington IAD- LGA. It turned around as flight 033 and operated the same route back. The beast for the F/A crew was that flight 33 left LGA @515pm and we served a full hot dinner on an Aladdin tray with beverages between LGA and IAD. Lucky if the flight was 50 minutes and it was a real hustle for 2 F/A's to serve up to 94 passengers dinner and a drink in that time.The galley was a mess as we landed in IAD because the trays were to be stacked and tied with a strap to store which was impossible to accomplish in the time. The flight was usually packed on Sunday evenings when military personnel flew back to Fort Bragg and Camp Lejuene. It was not a popular 10+hour day out and back with crew. Not quite as bad as an 8 stop DCA-TYS or 7 stop DCA-CVG on a prop but a typical routing between big and popular cities we flew.
 
User avatar
jaybird
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:23 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:01 am

BAINY3 wrote:
Some examples from Minneapolis:

- Allegheny only flew MSP-BUF rather than something that would have made more sense for them, like MSP-PIT.


That route was originally flown by Mohawk who was trying to expand outside their "confined" territory. It was flown 3x day with BAC 1-11s. It would have started service sometime between 1968 and 1970. In 1971 Mohawk was bleeding badly they agreed to be acquired by Allegheny and the merger went through in 1972. Prior to deregulation Allegheny couldn't just change it to PIT-MSP without CAB approval.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5664
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:26 pm

Anyone who wishes for re-regulation should read this thread thoughtfully. CAB was a nightmare. ICC trucking wasn’t any better. So bad, food transport had a category for “exempt commodities” ie perishables.
 
User avatar
jaybird
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:23 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:19 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Anyone who wishes for re-regulation should read this thread thoughtfully. CAB was a nightmare. ICC trucking wasn’t any better. So bad, food transport had a category for “exempt commodities” ie perishables.


To me one of the interesting things about airlines before deregulation was airlines had personality - that's how they had to compete. They couldn't compete on price or routes because that was all governed by the CAB. So they really had to ramp up their marketing and there cabin experience. That's how Northeast Yellowbirds came about, the Braniff "End of the Plain Plane" etc. Airlines had to compete with marketing to show you they were a better airline than their competitors. Flying was an experience. Now it's an experience too but it's like taking a bus. If you can get from point A to point B without any incidents that's a good flight. Yeah, I'm not talking about the front cabin - because that's not the experience of the majority of passengers.
 
DesertAir
Posts: 1446
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:34 am

Re: Odd CAB routes

Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:38 pm

UA had the Central Valley of California daily milk run> San Francisco-Stockton-Modesto-Fresno-Los Angeles and the return. For a while there was night, SFO-MOD-SCK flight. I took this once.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:38 am

jaybird wrote:
Flying was an experience. Now it's an experience too but it's like taking a bus. If you can get from point A to point B without any incidents that's a good flight. Yeah, I'm not talking about the front cabin - because that's not the experience of the majority of passengers.


In those days, the "incidents" would mean falling out of the sky.
Delta Gold Medallion
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:02 am

Branniff flew MCI-Terre Haute-LGA in the year before Dereg, to establish MCI-LGA when it began.
Eastern flew DCA-SDF-EVV- Stl for a while.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Odd CAB routes

Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:53 am

Air Wisconsin ORD-LAF-IND
DL IND-DTW
TW IND-DAY-CMH-JFK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: michael478 and 38 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos