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CDGIAD
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If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:39 pm

Question is in the title.
What are your thoughts about it?
 
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PITingres
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:42 pm

I can't think of any rational scenario in which scrapping 400+ already built frames is the optimal choice for Boeing, so I think it's a moot question.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
chiad
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:54 pm

PITingres wrote:
I can't think of any rational scenario in which scrapping 400+ already built frames is the optimal choice for Boeing, so I think it's a moot question.


Well, I can.
Think of one scenario in where a model was grounded after two crashes. Later multiple engineering and etical issues would surface, leaving the program under heavy scrutiny.
Then after a year of grounding a world pandemi would strike, reducing daily flights by 95% across the globe, making the the previous grounded model not only undesired by worried passengers, but also by airlines without cash who can mass cancel the model without penalty.

Do you think in this could be a rational scenario?
 
jghealey
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:10 pm

No. The 737max is a superior aircraft by every account to the 737ng especially now that it is under the most intense scrutiny (and no it is not - or no longer at least - a death trap as I'm sure some will suggest). As has been discussed literally millions of times on this forum and elsewhere, passengers will have forgotten about the Max by the time it returns to service, especially now after covid-19 which will have been a huge distraction. It's already over a year since the max was properly in the headlines.

And those who are saying they should cancel it altogether due to reduced demand, don't be so ridiculous. Aviation will recover in the next few years, and soon airlines will be rushing to buy the most efficient aircraft again, even if it doesn't recover to 2019 heights (although experts seem to be predicting that it will). Let's not forget that Ryanair, one of its largest customers, is expecting 80% of flights back by October, and Delta is even reportedly considering a 100 plane order. This is far from the end of the MAX, and I say that as an Airbus fan.
 
airsmiles
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:24 pm

I think what’s clear is that many people fall firmly into either camp. Some insist that it’s a stupid idea to scrap the MAX, while others cannot possibly see how it will, or should, survive. The market will decide and I personally think many airlines will choose short-term survival rather than spend a lot of money acquiring the most efficient aircraft for the longer term. They’ll worry about that if they survive.
 
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Acey
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:34 pm

chiad wrote:
PITingres wrote:
I can't think of any rational scenario in which scrapping 400+ already built frames is the optimal choice for Boeing, so I think it's a moot question.


Well, I can.
Think of one scenario in where a model was grounded after two crashes. Later multiple engineering and etical issues would surface, leaving the program under heavy scrutiny.
Then after a year of grounding a world pandemi would strike, reducing daily flights by 95% across the globe, making the the previous grounded model not only undesired by worried passengers, but also by airlines without cash who can mass cancel the model without penalty.

Do you think in this could be a rational scenario?


It's maybe rational but has no chance of playing out the way you describe.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:35 pm

airsmiles wrote:
The market will decide and I personally think many airlines will choose short-term survival rather than spend a lot of money acquiring the most efficient aircraft for the longer term. They’ll worry about that if they survive.


Moreover, which will be a better option for many of those future, struggling airlines (in the near and medium terms);
- cheap, easily available 737 NGs (which will be available as other move to the MAX in a decent market, or in this case - as weaker airlines fold), where fuel costs are low, and so is the risk of operation.
- brand new 737MAXs, with the publicity issue, and where the only major benefit will be range.

Lifetime extension programs, cheap parts, easy, or cheap upgrade potentials - and the second hand market might find that unless you need the range, or superiority of the MAX - a cheap 737NG might be worth having instead.

I can see that the range and capabilities of the MAX being compelling in the medium-long term, and so I see both Boeing and Airlines doing the same - delaying until that time and hoping for the best.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:40 pm

The MAX will fly again. There is no issue remaining that could permanently prevent recertification. The final engineering flight was completed at least 5 days ago:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/boeing- ... e-ceo.html

So at this time, Boeing is waiting for the FAA to witness certification flights. The work is done.

The pessimist think in the next 5 years 2100 MAX will be delivered. The optimist, 2700:

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... nged-world

Deliveries eventually greater than the DC-9+MD-80+MD-90+717 somehow aren't sky is falling.

Lightsaber
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JoseSalazar
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The MAX will fly again. There is no issue remaining that could permanently prevent recertification. The final engineering flight was completed at least 5 days ago:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/boeing- ... e-ceo.html

So at this time, Boeing is waiting for the FAA to witness certification flights. The work is done.

The pessimist think in the next 5 years 2100 MAX will be delivered. The optimist, 2700:

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... nged-world

Deliveries eventually greater than the DC-9+MD-80+MD-90+717 somehow aren't sky is falling.

Lightsaber


The link you provided (and the “final engineering flight”) is from a year and 5 days ago and hasn’t aged particularly well.
 
CaptainObvious1
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:59 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The MAX will fly again. There is no issue remaining that could permanently prevent recertification. The final engineering flight was completed at least 5 days ago:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/boeing- ... e-ceo.html

So at this time, Boeing is waiting for the FAA to witness certification flights. The work is done.

The pessimist think in the next 5 years 2100 MAX will be delivered. The optimist, 2700:

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... nged-world

Deliveries eventually greater than the DC-9+MD-80+MD-90+717 somehow aren't sky is falling.

Lightsaber


The link you provided (and the “final engineering flight”) is from a year and 5 days ago and hasn’t aged particularly well.


They did say "at least 5 days ago" so they are technically correct.

I'm getting dizzy from all this spin!

Captain Obvious.
 
Noshow
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:03 pm

Some NG restart is unlikely. The 737 must and can only compete with the latest engines. Having said that I expect the MAX to be cleared again by the FAA by about mid year.
 
aviatorcraig
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:03 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The MAX will fly again. There is no issue remaining that could permanently prevent recertification. The final engineering flight was completed at least 5 days ago:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/boeing- ... e-ceo.html


“We are making steady progress toward certification,” Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg said in a video on his Twitter account. :lol:
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:06 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
The market will decide and I personally think many airlines will choose short-term survival rather than spend a lot of money acquiring the most efficient aircraft for the longer term. They’ll worry about that if they survive.


Moreover, which will be a better option for many of those future, struggling airlines (in the near and medium terms);
- cheap, easily available 737 NGs (which will be available as other move to the MAX in a decent market, or in this case - as weaker airlines fold), where fuel costs are low, and so is the risk of operation.
- brand new 737MAXs, with the publicity issue, and where the only major benefit will be range.

Lifetime extension programs, cheap parts, easy, or cheap upgrade potentials - and the second hand market might find that unless you need the range, or superiority of the MAX - a cheap 737NG might be worth having instead.

I can see that the range and capabilities of the MAX being compelling in the medium-long term, and so I see both Boeing and Airlines doing the same - delaying until that time and hoping for the best.

The predictive maintenance, in particular in the engines, is attractive to airlines.

It would cost at least a billion usd to convert back.

Fuel and maintenance savings are real. The issue is no one needs aircraft. CFM wanted to keep producing 737NG to keep up volume for P-8 engines.

A 737NG isn't that much cheaper. As so much is shared, it is only about $4 million per aircraft. I estimate in 3 years improvements in the LEAP will drop that to 2 million.

Spot price of jet-A is $.707/gallon. The MAX burns roughly 150 gallons less per hour. So $106 less per hour at cheap fuel. So while breakeven on just fuel is way out at about 19,000 hours vs. prior ~8,500 hours. But that is brought in with maintenance improvements.

Range for US West coast to Hawaii is important. It cuts flight costs (hauling less weight of fuel). It enables TATL with viable economics.

So there is still payback. Now, at prior interest rates, payback had to be by 15,000 flight hours. Lower to motivate purchases. But at today's interest rate, I could see 25,000 hours being viable.

I'm not saying Boeing doesn't have a hard time to sell.

But we are past 737NG being cheap enough to sell at new prices. CFM tried...

Lightsaber
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An225
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:07 pm

jghealey wrote:
The 737max is a superior aircraft by every account to the 737ng.


Well, it is not superior in safety, which is the most important issue.

Passengers will avoid flying in an aircraft that its safety reputation is so bad. You think people forgot these two crashes and the scandel unveiled afterwards? well, you can be sure that the media will remind everybody what happened.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:09 pm

CaptainObvious1 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The MAX will fly again. There is no issue remaining that could permanently prevent recertification. The final engineering flight was completed at least 5 days ago:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/boeing- ... e-ceo.html

So at this time, Boeing is waiting for the FAA to witness certification flights. The work is done.

The pessimist think in the next 5 years 2100 MAX will be delivered. The optimist, 2700:

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... nged-world

Deliveries eventually greater than the DC-9+MD-80+MD-90+717 somehow aren't sky is falling.

Lightsaber


The link you provided (and the “final engineering flight”) is from a year and 5 days ago and hasn’t aged particularly well.


They did say "at least 5 days ago" so they are technically correct.

I'm getting dizzy from all this spin!

Captain Obvious.

Link for demand April 17, 2020, updated 5 days ago.

I did screw up on the link, it was republished I should have looked closer. But it will fly again.

Lightsaber
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An225
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:34 pm

It is true that the MAX has advantages if the safety issues are solved.
However, we should look at what happens around us. We have a major pandemic killing airlines and demand for flights. So here are four basic issues, which I think to be conservative:
One result is very low fuel prices, which will stay low for a significantly long time.
The second result is a lot of aircraft grounded and with airlines reducing fleets a lot of 737NG and A32Xceo are just waiting for new homes for cheap.
The third result is demand going to be very low in the short term which will rise slowly on the medium and long terms.
The fourth result is capital constraints, with airlines not having the capital to purchase the MAX.

Based on these issues I honestly don't see airlines buying the MAX or taking deliveries, at least on the original supply dates. They will go for 737NG or A32Xceo, which are now cheap to buy/lease and cheap to operate since oil prices are bellow rock bottom. In terms of the MAX program, the signs are out there - airlines and lessors are cutting their original orders and since the beginning of 2020 we had more than 170 cancellations, and we are only at the end of April.

An225
 
smartplane
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:09 pm

Pre-COVID, customers, lessors and financiers wanted the MAX delivered. Now, they don't want to make milestone payments or take delivery, despite the rhetoric for Boeing's ears to maximise compensation.

Everyone has surplus NB aircraft, even if not the latest generation.

Longer the MAX grounding continues, the more opportunity to place / eliminate surplus aircraft around the World, and greater chance Airbus can place cancelled but built aircraft.

Even if there was NG demand, and Boeing and CFM could deliver quickly, there is no liquidity or appetite to fund new commercial aircraft.
Last edited by smartplane on Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
KFTG
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:11 pm

An225 wrote:
jghealey wrote:
The 737max is a superior aircraft by every account to the 737ng.


Well, it is not superior in safety, which is the most important issue.

Passengers will avoid flying in an aircraft that its safety reputation is so bad. You think people forgot these two crashes and the scandel unveiled afterwards? well, you can be sure that the media will remind everybody what happened.

Let me guess. You'd happily fly on a DC-10 if given the chance?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Elementalism
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:19 pm

An225 wrote:
It is true that the MAX has advantages if the safety issues are solved.
However, we should look at what happens around us. We have a major pandemic killing airlines and demand for flights. So here are four basic issues, which I think to be conservative:
One result is very low fuel prices, which will stay low for a significantly long time.
The second result is a lot of aircraft grounded and with airlines reducing fleets a lot of 737NG and A32Xceo are just waiting for new homes for cheap.
The third result is demand going to be very low in the short term which will rise slowly on the medium and long terms.
The fourth result is capital constraints, with airlines not having the capital to purchase the MAX.

Based on these issues I honestly don't see airlines buying the MAX or taking deliveries, at least on the original supply dates. They will go for 737NG or A32Xceo, which are now cheap to buy/lease and cheap to operate since oil prices are bellow rock bottom. In terms of the MAX program, the signs are out there - airlines and lessors are cutting their original orders and since the beginning of 2020 we had more than 170 cancellations, and we are only at the end of April.

An225


This will happen to all aircraft. Nothing unique about the MAX. MAX will fly again. Boeing isnt going to walk away from 5000+ frames.
 
stylo777
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:28 pm

My answer to the initial question would be no, there won't be a restart of the NG due to reasons mentioned by my previous posters (but most importantly the capital costs...). Will the MAX fly again and continue to be a strong pillar in Boeing's portfolio? Yes, it has to be as there isn't anything in the pipeline in the near future:
- no MoM... big disadvantage to 321neo LR
- 77X receiving more and more cancellations
- 748 is already a dead-horse
- airlines reducing fleets (or even collapsing) thus NG's available on the 2nd hand/lease market if needed
- currently the only stronghold remains the 787

Boeing is very important for the US and POTUS wouldn't let them go down the drain. Everything will be made possible to bring the MAX to the air again; there is no other option or atleast I don't see any. Boeing will be quite busy anways modifying, updating and delivering the hundreds of built units over the next years. Btw. I lost track already over the number of parked frames; at which level do we stand now?
 
BravoOne
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:46 pm

KFTG wrote:
An225 wrote:
jghealey wrote:
The 737max is a superior aircraft by every account to the 737ng.


Well, it is not superior in safety, which is the most important issue.

Passengers will avoid flying in an aircraft that its safety reputation is so bad. You think people forgot these two crashes and the scandel unveiled afterwards? well, you can be sure that the media will remind everybody what happened.

Let me guess. You'd happily fly on a DC-10 if given the chance?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



Why would refuse to fly on a DC10 assuming they were still around?
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:49 pm

Oil prices will not stay low like they are now. But the ultimate increase in oil prices will NOT do any favors for the 737 MAX. There are 400 undelivered 737 MAX aircraft that will take at least two years make deliverable. A good number of the 737 MAX aircraft will not be delivered to the original purchasers due to the down turn now facing the airline industry.. They will NOT be scrapped but Boing will need to find new buyers but that could take several years and the most likely buyers may be leasing companies which will need to put heavy money to find leasees and possibly make expensive modifications to the aircraft to make them leasable. The 737-100 came out in about 1965 and about ten were sold to Lufthansa. It was stretched a few feet marketed as the 737-200 for many years. Then the 737-300 came out it had power plants by CFM which were larger in diameter than the original Pratt & Whitney JT8 power plants. This meant the nacelle needed to be flattened on the bottom for ground clearance. Boeing kept modifying the 737 into newer models by making changes in fuselage lengths and other changes to the original 737. Boeing then came out with the 737NG models which should have been the last of the 737s built. Possibly the only 737s that should be built would be those that new fuselages and wings, etc already built. Up until then the 737 severed Boeing and Southwest Airlines well. However Boeing should have been designing a new narrow body aircraft and left the left the 737 alone. It was is a 1960's aircraft not meant to be still built with all the changes needed to cobble it into a 21st century aircraft which it was never designed to be. Boeing did the right thing when they had plans to try and develop the 727 into a larger aircraft with two power plants and other updates in the 1980s by designing the 757 which could handle larger power plants and fuselage along with the fact that the 757 sat higher off the ground. The aircraft was a fresh build aircraft thad the ability to perform flights that were never anticipated as ETOPS was not around. Boeing developed the 757 along with the 767 which was a semi wide body and had a cockpit that shared commonalities with the 757. The 757 was not popular in the beginning with airlines but both Boeing and the airlines did not see the potentials of the 757 and what could be done with it. Unfortunately the 757 became an orphan and part of it due to Boeing's desire to continue building of 737s. Now Boeing has a problem and it is the 737 and Boeing needs to build a suitable 737 replacement. Meanwhile Airbus is building their A320 which does not have the shortcomings of the 737 and is also building the A321 which is building itself into a 757 replacement. Boeings's life may be at stake due to the current condition of the airlines as it does not have a suitable aircraft to compete with the A320 and A321. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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lightsaber
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:55 pm

Owning not checking the date on my prior link, does anyone know when test flights are planned? I was looking for more information but last I found was Feb 2020 test flights in a few weeks then a later on 2 more software fixes. I'm guessing no new real information.

Lightsaber
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737max8
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:08 pm

Two points to counter in this thread so far:

1. Nobody wants new airplanes

Sure they do, they want new efficient airplane so they can retire old, expensive airplanes to operate

2. It will take Boeing 2 years to deliver the airplanes built

You really think Boeing wants to wait to get their money? Ha. Those things will start moving fast once it is re-certified.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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KFTG
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:11 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Why would refuse to fly on a DC10 assuming they were still around?

You may want to look at the death toll caused by the plethora of high-profile DC-10 accidents vs. those of the 737Max. The worst aviation disaster in US history *to this day* was AA191 in ORD.
 
BravoOne
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:04 pm

Yes, but that could more of a AA driven issue than aircraft design, though there were problems with slat design. Had a good freiend whose wife was a FA on that flight. Personally have about 5000 hours as Capt. on the DC10 and never felt mis life as in danger. So much drama and little facts.

Not giving the 737 Max a pass at this hour.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:05 am

The number one power plant broke loos as result of American Airlines removing and reinstalling the power plant and pylon as single unit with a fork lift which caused cracking of the spherical or mono ball attaching assembly. Both American and Continental Airlines used this method for removing a power plant as it was less labor intensive. However as the use of fork lift to do this can damage attaching assembly as there is more stress on the assembly due to the fork lift's inability to move side to side. The power plant should be removed with an overhead hoist as it is able to move in all directions aligning the power plant more precisely without causing any damage. If the pylon needs removal that should be completed separately. This is a more time consuming method but it is the proper way for it to be completed. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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rjsampson
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:50 am

jghealey,

jghealey wrote:
As has been discussed literally millions of times on this forum and elsewhere, passengers will have forgotten about the Max by the time it returns to service, especially now after covid-19 which will have been a huge distraction. It's already over a year since the max was properly in the headlines.


I agree with everything you said in your post, except for the above statement.

It will be A LONG TIME before the public (nervous fliers being a not-insignificant proportion therein) will forget about the MAX. These aren't like the times of the DC-10, and the notion that "the average passenger doesn't even know the aircraft type on which they're flying" will no longer be the case. The MAX will most certainly be back in the headlines when deliveries ramp up.

Today's travelers live in a world saturated with media (social, cable, etc.) and "737 MAX" -- a conveniently easy-to-remember name -- will absolutely not be forgotten quickly. It has been seared into the general public's brains.

That said: Yes of course the MAX will fly again, and new NGs will never be delivered again (sans military).
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. Unfortunately, we're grounded :(
 
jghealey
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:28 am

rjsampson wrote:
jghealey,

jghealey wrote:
As has been discussed literally millions of times on this forum and elsewhere, passengers will have forgotten about the Max by the time it returns to service, especially now after covid-19 which will have been a huge distraction. It's already over a year since the max was properly in the headlines.


I agree with everything you said in your post, except for the above statement.

It will be A LONG TIME before the public (nervous fliers being a not-insignificant proportion therein) will forget about the MAX. These aren't like the times of the DC-10, and the notion that "the average passenger doesn't even know the aircraft type on which they're flying" will no longer be the case. The MAX will most certainly be back in the headlines when deliveries ramp up.

Today's travelers live in a world saturated with media (social, cable, etc.) and "737 MAX" -- a conveniently easy-to-remember name -- will absolutely not be forgotten quickly. It has been seared into the general public's brains.

That said: Yes of course the MAX will fly again, and new NGs will never be delivered again (sans military).

Fair enough. I think all airlines would need to do is not to disclose the aircraft type on booking (which many airlines don't do anyway) and then say '737' on the safety card or something like that. Even so, the wider 737 family will have taken a significant hit... but, having said that, we didn't really see people refusing to fly on 737ngs after the MAX debacle.
 
jghealey
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:30 am

An225 wrote:
jghealey wrote:
The 737max is a superior aircraft by every account to the 737ng.


Well, it is not superior in safety, which is the most important issue.

Passengers will avoid flying in an aircraft that its safety reputation is so bad. You think people forgot these two crashes and the scandel unveiled afterwards? well, you can be sure that the media will remind everybody what happened.

It's not superior in safety? It's funny how you removed the part of the sentence where I backed up that claim. Perhaps it was not superior in safety but that was in times past, not now. We all know how intense the scrutiny of the MAX is. I'm sure the FAA won't stop at anything to ensure it's safe - it would be an even bigger PR disaster for both them and Boeing for it to crash again after the entry to service.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:38 am

Is the pre-flight safety briefing on the MAX so different from any other 737 series that it needs brought attention to by naming it in the safety card ? In other words would "Boeing 737" suffice ?
 
VSMUT
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Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:45 am

jghealey wrote:
As has been discussed literally millions of times on this forum and elsewhere, passengers will have forgotten about the Max by the time it returns to service, especially now after covid-19 which will have been a huge distraction. It's already over a year since the max was properly in the headlines.


I'm not sure where you get your news, but decidedly non-aviation mainstream news outlets in my country have had the 737MAX on the headlines pretty often, even once during the Corona-crisis. Out of the spotlight it is not. A lot of people on the airport train discuss it too.
 
jghealey
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 5:46 pm

Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:41 am

VSMUT wrote:
jghealey wrote:
As has been discussed literally millions of times on this forum and elsewhere, passengers will have forgotten about the Max by the time it returns to service, especially now after covid-19 which will have been a huge distraction. It's already over a year since the max was properly in the headlines.


I'm not sure where you get your news, but decidedly non-aviation mainstream news outlets in my country have had the 737MAX on the headlines pretty often, even once during the Corona-crisis. Out of the spotlight it is not. A lot of people on the airport train discuss it too.

I'm British living in Switzerland, so read both country's news sites and it hasn't been prominently featured in either country's mainstream news properly since summer last year. Perhaps the odd article about its recertification struggles, but not in the main headlines. It is occasionally covered by the news but is not 'in the spotlight'. That said it may be very different wherever you live.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Sat May 02, 2020 7:27 pm

jghealey wrote:
...
Fair enough. I think all airlines would need to do is not to disclose the aircraft type on booking (which many airlines don't do anyway) and then say '737' on the safety card or something like that. Even so, the wider 737 family will have taken a significant hit... but, having said that, we didn't really see people refusing to fly on 737ngs after the MAX debacle.


Isn't the flying public the one, who eventually pays for all this show -- airlines, airplanes, the whole thing?
Are you saying the it is proper to deny the customer a freedom to choose, with their wallet, what they want to fly?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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jghealey
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 5:46 pm

Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Sun May 03, 2020 7:44 am

Phosphorus wrote:
jghealey wrote:
...
Fair enough. I think all airlines would need to do is not to disclose the aircraft type on booking (which many airlines don't do anyway) and then say '737' on the safety card or something like that. Even so, the wider 737 family will have taken a significant hit... but, having said that, we didn't really see people refusing to fly on 737ngs after the MAX debacle.


Isn't the flying public the one, who eventually pays for all this show -- airlines, airplanes, the whole thing?
Are you saying the it is proper to deny the customer a freedom to choose, with their wallet, what they want to fly?

I am not saying that 'it is proper', I was saying that that would be what airlines would need to do to get passengers (or specifically the ones who actually care) on their flights if they operated the MAX. I didn't mention anything about this being 'proper'.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Sun May 03, 2020 7:53 am

jghealey wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
jghealey wrote:
...
Fair enough. I think all airlines would need to do is not to disclose the aircraft type on booking (which many airlines don't do anyway) and then say '737' on the safety card or something like that. Even so, the wider 737 family will have taken a significant hit... but, having said that, we didn't really see people refusing to fly on 737ngs after the MAX debacle.


Isn't the flying public the one, who eventually pays for all this show -- airlines, airplanes, the whole thing?
Are you saying the it is proper to deny the customer a freedom to choose, with their wallet, what they want to fly?

I am not saying that 'it is proper', I was saying that that would be what airlines would need to do to get passengers (or specifically the ones who actually care) on their flights if they operated the MAX. I didn't mention anything about this being 'proper'.


Well, why do you not want the market to decide? The airlines will have happier passengers, who'll feel empowered to choose. Those who hate the MAX will book away, paying extra to not fly MAX. Those who don't hate it will take advantage of emptier MAX flights (and lower fares, as a result), and laugh all the way to the bank. What's not to like?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Mon May 04, 2020 9:56 pm

jghealey wrote:
Fair enough. I think all airlines would need to do is not to disclose the aircraft type on booking (which many airlines don't do anyway) and then say '737' on the safety card or something like that.

What? I think all airlines should publicly reject the 737 MAX.

Personally I never book flights if the aircraft type is a secret.
 
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aeromoe
Posts: 1289
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:36 am

KFTG wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Why would refuse to fly on a DC10 assuming they were still around?

You may want to look at the death toll caused by the plethora of high-profile DC-10 accidents vs. those of the 737Max. The worst aviation disaster in US history *to this day* was AA191 in ORD.


Really? You're comparing the DC-10 that was in service for decades versus the 737MAX and its less than 24 months of service? Re: the DC-10. Don't forget the cause of that accident. Shoddy maintenance technique with a shift change involved. AA191 was NOT due to a design or manufacturing error...and neither were the majority of the accidents after the 1972 AA incident ex-Detroit or the 1974 THY flight ex-Paris. Thankfully I have enjoyed all my flights aboard DC-10s and KC-10As since my first flight aboard a United DC-10 as a pre-teen on 1 January 1977. I would happily fly in another DC-10 today if possible.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
KFTG
Posts: 858
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: If the 737max is killed, will Boeing restart producing the 737NG ?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:25 am

You are completely missing the point. Your comments related to consumer (and your personal confidence) in flying on a Max again. My point was, even after all of the DC-10’s issues and its reputation it still had a relatively sucessful career.

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