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Sdmccray1984
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Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 10:06 pm

Given the massive number of tourists to “The Happiest Place on Earth,” and AA’s success with US-Latin America connections at MIA, it would seem that MCO’s similar geographic position would lend itself to being used as a connection hub for a company like UAL in the future... What do you guys(& ladies) think?
 
eagles94
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 10:19 pm

Considering the vast majority of Disney bound pax are European, mostly from the U.K., it would be a pointless exercise for a legacy to waste a frame to operate a handful of leisure routes, you certainly wouldn’t see any dropping a flight to free up an LHR slot, especially since most of the U.K. can easily get to MCO whether it’s on BA, Icelandair, Lufthansa or Aer Lingus, or even connecting through one of the legacies current hubs like ATL or IAD, I personally don’t think it would make sense.

EDIT: Fun fact, Brazil actually has the most nationals that visit WDW per year, hence the random Azul, Gol and LATAM flights
 
ericm2031
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 10:29 pm

It would be an uphill battle to build a hub at an airport with 4 LCC/ULCC’s already well established with a focus city/hub there.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 10:37 pm

One question might be along the lines of whether one of the extant carriers (like Spirit does at FLL) might wish to do what you suggest wrt Latin America. There is mucho business to the Magic Kingdom from there.

I'm not sure that Brits are the major foreign group that comes to Disney, but they do come in droves after the Merkins and their kids go back to school. We were there last year at exactly that time, and were a minority compared to the Brits and their unbelievably-well-behaved children.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 10:42 pm

Why would it?
  • There's not much big-business based there, that would support it.
  • It's absolutely infested with LoCos
  • it sits in the Venn shadow of both the most powerful domestic gateway (ATL) and largest international gateway (MIA) in the southeast

Should be noted, all but one of the country's past and present mainline Legacies (AS) have had a Florida hub at some point in their history, and that all of them except DL chose against MCO. DL of course could never have a true major gateway at MCO, since (again) it sat in general proximity to the ATL superhub.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
KFTG
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 11:03 pm

MCO was a Delta hub in the 90s.
UA also ran a hub at MCO.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 11:06 pm

Didn't DL briefly fly GRU-MCO?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 11:10 pm

Sdmccray1984 wrote:
Given the massive number of tourists to “The Happiest Place on Earth,” and AA’s success with US-Latin America connections at MIA, it would seem that MCO’s similar geographic position would lend itself to being used as a connection hub for a company like UAL in the future... What do you guys(& ladies) think?


It can't become a legacy Hub at this point.

DL & AA both wouldn't try it due to ATL & MIA being way too close. UA won't try it because the O&D base isn't there.

Rule of thumb is, the most profitable airline hubs are the ones with little to no local competition & sizable O&D. MCO does not fall into that category as it is one of the most competitive markets in the country.
Image

While MCO & MIA are in similar locations, the passenger make up is different. MIA is a major business & leisure destination, home to many high net worth individuals, and attracts many high-end leisure travelers. MCO on the other hand is more of a convention & leisure destination, with a significantly weaker O&D base, and a significantly smaller base of high-end leisure travelers.

MCO is much more ideally suited to be a hub for the WNs, B6s, & NKs of the world, who can profitably offer low fares to leisure customers.
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AAlaxfan
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 11:18 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Sdmccray1984 wrote:
Given the massive number of tourists to “The Happiest Place on Earth,” and AA’s success with US-Latin America connections at MIA, it would seem that MCO’s similar geographic position would lend itself to being used as a connection hub for a company like UAL in the future... What do you guys(& ladies) think?


It can't become a legacy Hub at this point.

DL & AA both wouldn't try it due to ATL & MIA being way too close. UA won't try it because the O&D base isn't there.

Rule of thumb is, the most profitable airline hubs are the ones with little to no local competition & sizable O&D. MCO does not fall into that category as it is one of the most competitive markets in the country.
Image

While MCO & MIA are in similar locations, the passenger make up is different. MIA is a major business & leisure destination, home to many high net worth individuals, and attracts many high-end leisure travelers. MCO on the other hand is more of a convention & leisure destination, with a significantly weaker O&D base, and a significantly smaller base of high-end leisure travelers.

MCO is much more ideally suited to be a hub for the WNs, B6s, & NKs of the world, who can profitably offer low fares to leisure customers.


AA - MIA is mia in this chart.
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DL747400
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 11:34 pm

MCO as a legacy hub? Not as long as NK, G4 and F9 are still in business.
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Wingtips56
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sat May 02, 2020 11:41 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
Didn't DL briefly fly GRU-MCO?

I know Trans Brasil did, as I took that flight once. 763. The staff even called it the Mickey Mouse flight, with all the families. Kids pressing the call button constantly and the poor flight attendants having to respond to each one.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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midway7
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 12:09 am

Gates 60 - 99 were actually built for a Delta hub or focus city in the early 1990's. Nice set up with commuter gates and an FIS all in one airside. Delta expanded into it for a short period of time. The gulf war, recession, drop in air travel and eventually build up of ATL as a megahub led to it not ever really becoming a hub for them.
 
PB26
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 12:33 am

Wingtips56 wrote:
Ionosphere wrote:
Didn't DL briefly fly GRU-MCO?

I know Trans Brasil did, as I took that flight once. 763. The staff even called it the Mickey Mouse flight, with all the families. Kids pressing the call button constantly and the poor flight attendants having to respond to each one.

Delta flew GRU-MCO between december 2015 and march 2019.

Transbrasil was the first Brazilian carrier in MCO, with the charter year round CGH-GIG-MCO-CGH by B762. Fun fact: Orlando was the only US city with nonstop flight to CGH.

After the company flew regular flights GRU-MCO-MIA-GRU daily by B763.

Varig flew MCO in mid nineties, with a DC 10-30 in the route GIG-MIA-MCO, with the last leg with passengers from GRU-mia flights.
Rio and all South America by Panair do Brasil’s jets.
 
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STT757
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 1:25 am

Delta had a hub there, I flew them to MCO many times both into their old concourse and the new
One they had built around 1995?

Check out the MCO OAG for specific Delta flights in 1991.


http://www.departedflights.com/MCO91p1.html

Also as mentioned UA had started building up a hub there around 1993. They were also looking at building a massive maintenance base there but instead chose IND.

viewtopic.php?t=1421043

I think UA were planning to move their MIA international flights , they had recently acquire from Pan Am’s Liquidation, to MCO. UA’s operation at MIA, I hesitate to call it a hub, peaked at 35 flights a day. I think the plan was MCO until they pulled
The plug.



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727LOVER
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 1:44 am

Florida Express hubbed MCO as well.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 1:44 am

eagles94 wrote:
Considering the vast majority of Disney bound pax are European, mostly from the U.K....


They aren't. Not even close. Third-party sources - since Disney doesn't put out this detail in attendance figures - put the international visitor fraction at Disney World between 18 and 22%.

In total Orlando visits, foreigners make up about 10%. https://www.mpi.org/blog/article/orland ... s-for-2018

MCO is too fragmented by carrier, with too many LCC flights, to be dominated by a legacy carrier.
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 1:55 am

I don’t think MCO was ever technically a DL hub, was it? Maybe a focus city in the early to mid 1990s? Even had a significant presence, perhaps the dominant carrier, during the mid 1980s when DL became the official airline of Walt Disney World. (After Eastern was)

I think DL was the dominant carrier at MCO throughout most of the 90s?? SW didn’t arrive until 1996. All you had was Valuejet, Kiwi, and perhaps a couple others?
Last edited by pwm2txlhopper on Sun May 03, 2020 1:58 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 1:55 am

If enough time passes that either WN or B6 becomes a “legacy” airline... :D
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 2:40 am

Sdmccray1984 wrote:
Given the massive number of tourists to “The Happiest Place on Earth,” and AA’s success with US-Latin America connections at MIA, it would seem that MCO’s similar geographic position would lend itself to being used as a connection hub for a company like UAL in the future... What do you guys(& ladies) think?


DL's pre-COVID19 decision to go into MIA instead of MCO to pursue the LATAM opportunity was the "final straw" at any organic expansion out of MCO by a legacy. If UA hubs out of MCO, it would be through a B6 merger.
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 2:44 am

midway7 wrote:
Gates 60 - 99 were actually built for a Delta hub or focus city in the early 1990's. Nice set up with commuter gates and an FIS all in one airside. Delta expanded into it for a short period of time. The gulf war, recession, drop in air travel and eventually build up of ATL as a megahub led to it not ever really becoming a hub for them.


This is correct Correct. Even right before COVID-19 hit, DL was still regularly using gates in every wing of Airside 4 (70-79, 80-89, 90-99) for RON AM departures.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 3:21 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Why would it?
  • There's not much big-business based there, that would support it.
  • It's absolutely infested with LoCos
  • it sits in the Venn shadow of both the most powerful domestic gateway (ATL) and largest international gateway (MIA) in the southeast


Though I don't think it will be a hub.

MCO does a massive amount of conventions,
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 3:36 am

midway7 wrote:
Gates 60 - 99 were actually built for a Delta hub or focus city in the early 1990's. Nice set up with commuter gates and an FIS all in one airside. Delta expanded into it for a short period of time. The gulf war, recession, drop in air travel and eventually build up of ATL as a megahub led to it not ever really becoming a hub for them.

ComAir ran much of the Delta Connection services out of there, with some ASA. I was on one of the last ComAir SWM flights, FPO-MCO (connecting to DL Express. Remember that?). That trip was memorable because of the storms we flew through, turning the Sewer Pipe into a Vomit Comet.

DL first tried branded ops as a hub there, complete with Intl service. Then the Delta Express branding ran some 60 flights a day. IIRC, DL ran well over 100 flights a day, but the yields were horrible. Even with “Hub” status, they were getting beaten up badly by Everyone else, no matter the “Official Airline of Disney” branding they had gotten after Eastern collapsed.

Remember, in this period, Atlanta was under pressure from ValuJet, AA still hunted in BNA, ATA had captured much of the Charter and Package markets in the Midwest to Disney, Carnival had taken the cruise traffic, Southwest had just expanded into Florida, and half a dozen smaller carriers like Midway were driving Northeast Florida fares into the floor.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 3:39 am

727LOVER wrote:
Florida Express hubbed MCO as well.

I loved Florida Express. Cheap fares, good service, comfortable, if older BAC’s. Great staff, many who later ended up at ATA
 
rbavfan
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 4:05 am

DL747400 wrote:
MCO as a legacy hub? Not as long as NK, G4 and F9 are still in business.


G4 does not fly into MCO it fly's into SFB.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 4:24 am

I don't see any new hubs in the foreseeable future. MCO has too much ULCC competition. What the ULCC market will look like by 2021 is an unknown.
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 5:24 am

rbavfan wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
MCO as a legacy hub? Not as long as NK, G4 and F9 are still in business.


G4 does not fly into MCO it fly's into SFB.


G4 did at one point fly into MCO for a brief period around 2010-11. They moved some routes that they competed directly with AirTran from SFB to MCO but then eventually retracted and moved everything back to SFB a few months later.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 6:28 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Why would it?
  • There's not much big-business based there, that would support it.
  • It's absolutely infested with LoCos
  • it sits in the Venn shadow of both the most powerful domestic gateway (ATL) and largest international gateway (MIA) in the southeast

Should be noted, all but one of the country's past and present mainline Legacies (AS) have had a Florida hub at some point in their history, and that all of them except DL chose against MCO. DL of course could never have a true major gateway at MCO, since (again) it sat in general proximity to the ATL superhub.


I don't know if the proximity is the biggest problem. Airlines have had a precedent to make hubs in big cities nearby to mega hubs.
United with both EWR and IAD which have a lot of overlapping traffic comes to mind, along with AA with JFK and PHL. The issue is more business traffic but as we see more people in the NE split their time between the north and FL we might see more businesses who need international traffic in MCO.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 6:33 am

Ionosphere wrote:
Didn't DL briefly fly GRU-MCO?

Yes, they flew it for several years.




Gulfstream500 wrote:
If enough time passes that either WN or B6 becomes a “legacy” airline...

Except that that's impossible, seeing as the "legacy" referred to was the the authority to carry interstate passengers prior to deregulation in 1978.

WN didn't have that until 1979 when they launched MSY, and B6 didn't exist then.
HA could've been, but chose not to, as interstate ops didn't fit their business model until 1984.

AA, DL, UA, and AS are the only remaining mainline Legacy carriers in the US.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
strfyr51
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 6:52 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Why would it?
  • There's not much big-business based there, that would support it.
  • It's absolutely infested with LoCos
  • it sits in the Venn shadow of both the most powerful domestic gateway (ATL) and largest international gateway (MIA) in the southeast

Should be noted, all but one of the country's past and present mainline Legacies (AS) have had a Florida hub at some point in their history, and that all of them except DL chose against MCO. DL of course could never have a true major gateway at MCO, since (again) it sat in general proximity to the ATL superhub.


I don't know if the proximity is the biggest problem. Airlines have had a precedent to make hubs in big cities nearby to mega hubs.
United with both EWR and IAD which had have a lot of overlapping traffic comes to mind, along with AA with JFK and PHL. The issue is more business traffic but as we see more people in the NE split their time between the north and FL we might see more businesses who need international traffic in MCO.

I think United could and might return to South Florida at some point in a big way. We ha. Unid a deep south Bank out of MIA down to SAO and GIG years ago which we pretty well abandoned when MIA demanded we increase our Lease payments because they wanted to build a new terminal for American.
United told them to "shove it" and moved the flights to IAD. I;m not sure United flies down there anymore or anywhere international from south Florida. (I haven't looked though In a Long Time
 
strfyr51
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 7:06 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Why would it?
  • There's not much big-business based there, that would support it.
  • It's absolutely infested with LoCos
  • it sits in the Venn shadow of both the most powerful domestic gateway (ATL) and largest international gateway (MIA) in the southeast

Should be noted, all but one of the country's past and present mainline Legacies (AS) have had a Florida hub at some point in their history, and that all of them except DL chose against MCO. DL of course could never have a true major gateway at MCO, since (again) it sat in general proximity to the ATL superhub.


I don't know if the proximity is the biggest problem. Airlines have had a precedent to make hubs in big cities nearby to mega hubs.
United with both EWR and IAD which had have a lot of overlapping traffic comes to mind, along with AA with JFK and P The issue is more business traffic but as we see more people in the NE split their time between the north and FL we might see more businesses who need international traffic in MCO.

I think United could and might return to South Florida at some point in a big way. We ha. Unid a deep south Bank out of MIA down to SAO and GIG years ago which we pretty well abandoned when MIA demanded we increase our Lease payments because they wanted to build a new terminal for American.
United told them to "shove it" and moved the flights to IAD. I;m not sure United flies down there anymore or anywhere international from south Florida. (I haven't looked though In a Long Time

Just looked on Line, UA still flies to GRU but through IAH so the south Florida Idea might well be redundant though it does make a good corner of the country for Bahamas and the islands there, especially when Latin American Baseball resumes in winter Leagues.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 7:17 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
Airlines have had a precedent to make hubs in big cities nearby to mega hubs.

But you're missing the obvious followup: the overwhelming majority of them, failed, with the premier hub taking the majority of the spoils.

About the only extant example, where both hubs serve the same function (as opposed to a domestic-domestic vs domestic-international feeder) is:
    Insertnamehere wrote:
    United with both EWR and IAD




Insertnamehere wrote:
which have a lot of overlapping traffic comes to mind, along with AA with JFK and PHL

Are you not aware that AA was already severely drawing down JFK in favor of PHL, even prior to Covid19?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 9:25 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
If enough time passes that either WN or B6 becomes a “legacy” airline...

Except that that's impossible, seeing as the "legacy" referred to was the the authority to carry interstate passengers prior to deregulation in 1978.

WN didn't have that until 1979 when they launched MSY, and B6 didn't exist then.
HA could've been, but chose not to, as interstate ops didn't fit their business model until 1984.

AA, DL, UA, and AS are the only remaining mainline Legacy carriers in the US.


The point of the statement was to show that the definition of a “legacy” airline could change. Some aviation-revolutionizing event could (and most likely will) occur, such as the introduction of regional supersonic flights. Far in the future, the aviation community may view said event as more significant.
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 10:40 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
The point of the statement was to show that the definition of a “legacy” airline could change.

And it was a point not based in fact, as again, the "legacy" refers to a specific event. That you imagine some other event "may" occur, doesn't change that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
OB1504
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 1:15 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
I don't know if the proximity is the biggest problem. Airlines have had a precedent to make hubs in big cities nearby to mega hubs.
United with both EWR and IAD which have a lot of overlapping traffic comes to mind, along with AA with JFK and PHL. The issue is more business traffic but as we see more people in the NE split their time between the north and FL we might see more businesses who need international traffic in MCO.


In the cases of AA with NYC/PHL and United with EWR/IAD, the hubs were inherited through mergers and were originally built in competition with each other. Nowadays no airline is going to set up a new hub to cannibalize an existing one.

Even pre-COVID, AA was already drawing down intercontinental flights from JFK in favor of PHL.

strfyr51 wrote:
I think United could and might return to South Florida at some point in a big way. We ha. Unid a deep south Bank out of MIA down to SAO and GIG years ago which we pretty well abandoned when MIA demanded we increase our Lease payments because they wanted to build a new terminal for American.
United told them to "shove it" and moved the flights to IAD. I;m not sure United flies down there anymore or anywhere international from south Florida. (I haven't looked though In a Long Time


That doesn’t sound right. At the same time the North Terminal was being constructed, MIA also built the South Terminal for which United was intended to be the primary tenant. The lounge space in Concourse J was originally going to be a Red Carpet Club.

If their lease payments were raised, it was because they were also getting a new terminal for themselves.

The real reason they pulled out was because they half assed the focus city by never growing beyond what they inherited from Pan Am and they never reached the critical mass to compete against AA’s dominance. With the post 9/11 financial difficulties, there wasn’t any point in keeping the focus city open.

Nowadays with Delta moving toward expanding at MIA (though with COVID that’s probably on hold), there’s no room in the market for a third legacy to try building a hub, especially the airline that’s a clear #3 in the market.
 
tphuang
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 1:41 pm

What if we change the question from if MCO ever become a legacy hub to if MCO can ever become a hub dominated by a single carrier with a lot of international flights. I think the former have been explored many times here and the clear answer is no.

I think the answer for later is also no. And the reason is most of the MCO flights depend on the other market point of sale, kind of like LAS. So the only carrier that could dominate in such a market is WN. But even WNI don't see will ever dominate MCO point of sale. It's just such a fragmented market with such a large ULCC market and strong legacy presence.

Compared to MIA, MCO seems to just have much less O&D and business demand from local population.
 
crownvic
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 2:59 pm

[quote="LAX772LR"]Why would it?
[list]
[*]There's not much big-business based there, that would supprt it quote]

Though this does not help the passenger count, it should be noted that at sometimes there are at least 30 cargo movements or more a day at MCO..Kalitta has been using a 744 almost daily during the week running an LAX-MCO-LAX run for nearly a year now. Im sure Locheed-Martin, KIA's big distribution center and the very large medical research community would argue that.
 
HVNandrew
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 3:18 pm

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
I don’t think MCO was ever technically a DL hub, was it? Maybe a focus city in the early to mid 1990s? Even had a significant presence, perhaps the dominant carrier, during the mid 1980s when DL became the official airline of Walt Disney World. (After Eastern was)

I think DL was the dominant carrier at MCO throughout most of the 90s?? SW didn’t arrive until 1996. All you had was Valuejet, Kiwi, and perhaps a couple others?

It was definitely a hub in the late 80s and debatably up until the early 2000s. It changed during that time in terms of what was offered and how the hub was setup, but DL considered it a hub and it functioned as one. I think the introduction of DL Express marked a major change in strategy for the MCO hub, and the strategy kept evolving in response to WN (and later B6) growing in the market. The commuter presence actually stuck around for quite a while, and until very recently there still remained a pretty extensive P2P network on DL Connection.

Here is an article I found from 1988 where DL explicitly mentions MCO as a hub and stated their plans to turn MCO into a "major hub for Delta".

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os ... story.html
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 3:39 pm

crownvic wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Why would it?
[list]
[*]There's not much big-business based there, that would supprt it quote]

Though this does not help the passenger count, it should be noted that at sometimes there are at least 30 cargo movements or more a day at MCO..Kalitta has been using a 744 almost daily during the week running an LAX-MCO-LAX run for nearly a year now. Im sure Locheed-Martin, KIA's big distribution center and the very large medical research community would argue that.


Orlando has the lowest median wage out of the 50 largest metro areas in the US and the least affordable housing in the US compared to the median wage. It is an economy based on low wage service industry jobs and that does not lend itself to high yield business travelers that a legacy airline hub requires.
 
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STT757
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 4:08 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
crownvic wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Why would it?
[list]
[*]There's not much big-business based there, that would supprt it quote]

Though this does not help the passenger count, it should be noted that at sometimes there are at least 30 cargo movements or more a day at MCO..Kalitta has been using a 744 almost daily during the week running an LAX-MCO-LAX run for nearly a year now. Im sure Locheed-Martin, KIA's big distribution center and the very large medical research community would argue that.


Orlando has the lowest median wage out of the 50 largest metro areas in the US and the least affordable housing in the US compared to the median wage. It is an economy based on low wage service industry jobs and that does not lend itself to high yield business travelers that a legacy airline hub requires.


I was shocked to learn the weekly unemployment benefit in the State of Florida is $275.00. What are people going to do with that? The weekly unemployment benefit in New Jersey where I live is $713.00.


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Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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dennypayne
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 4:23 pm

Wingtips56 wrote:
Ionosphere wrote:
Didn't DL briefly fly GRU-MCO?

I know Trans Brasil did, as I took that flight once. 763. The staff even called it the Mickey Mouse flight, with all the families. Kids pressing the call button constantly and the poor flight attendants having to respond to each one.


Exactly why I never relished having to go to a customer in Orlando. A lot of business travelers would avoid MCO as a hub for this reason alone.

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LAX772LR
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Sun May 03, 2020 8:11 pm

STT757 wrote:
I was shocked to learn the weekly unemployment benefit in the State of Florida is $275.00. What are people going to do with that? The weekly unemployment benefit in New Jersey where I live is $713.00.

That's the exception not the rule; even California is only $450/wk.

And that's a state where SFO just became the first and only major city in the country where both the media and average rents not only crossed $3K/month, but skyrocketed past it, to almost $3500/mo.

https://www.fortunebuilders.com/top-10- ... est-rents/
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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STT757
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Wed May 06, 2020 5:11 pm

It wasn't just Delta and United who had their hub experiments at MCO, US Air also had a hub at MCO and had a marketing agreement as "The Official Airline of Universal Studios"

From the December 1992 OAG, US Air had nonstop service from MCO to the following destinations:
Naples, Hartford, Boston, Baltimore, Charlotte, Daytona Beach, Washington National, Newark, Key West, Fort Lauderdale, Washington Dulles, Indianapolis, Islip, Jacksonville, New York Kennedy, New York LaGuardia, Miami, Melbourne, Marathon, West Palm Beach, Panama City FL, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Pensacola, Fort Myers, Sarasota, Treasure Cay, Tallahassee, Vero Beach.

http://www.departedflights.com/US120292p30.html
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ScottB
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Wed May 06, 2020 6:08 pm

tphuang wrote:
But even WNI don't see will ever dominate MCO point of sale. It's just such a fragmented market with such a large ULCC market and strong legacy presence.


WN probably does dominate Orlando point-of-sale; it's just that Orlando point-of-sale is a relatively small fraction of traffic as compared to all the inbound leisure passengers.

usflyer msp wrote:
Orlando has the lowest median wage out of the 50 largest metro areas in the US and the least affordable housing in the US compared to the median wage. It is an economy based on low wage service industry jobs and that does not lend itself to high yield business travelers that a legacy airline hub requires.


This is the key reason why MCO is unlikely to have a legacy hub in the future -- akin to why MEM lost its legacy hub.

Sdmccray1984 wrote:
Given the massive number of tourists to “The Happiest Place on Earth,” and AA’s success with US-Latin America connections at MIA, it would seem that MCO’s similar geographic position would lend itself to being used as a connection hub for a company like UAL in the future


Low-yield tourists do not make for a successful legacy hub. MIA is valuable for AA because Miami is the de facto financial capital of Latin America, the U.S. headquarters for many large corporations based in Latin America, and the Latin America head office for many U.S. companies.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Wed May 06, 2020 6:19 pm

The probability of MCO becoming a legacy hub again is very low, but the post-COVID-19 fallout may put a significant dent on its continuing to be the 2nd-largest O&D airport in the US.

The recent announcements by British Airways and Virgin Atlantic that they were closing down operations at LGW will have a severe impact on MCO. LGW was MCO's main UK gateway and the route was the crown jewel of MCO's international operations. Couple this with Norwegian Air Shuttle nearing collapse, which was the 3rd airline operating the LGW-MCO route.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Wed May 06, 2020 6:32 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
The point of the statement was to show that the definition of a “legacy” airline could change.

And it was a point not based in fact, as again, the "legacy" refers to a specific event. That you imagine some other event "may" occur, doesn't change that.


You're ignoring the point of what I said. Legacy could eventually refer to a different specific event - 50 years from now, it could be the case that DL, UA, AA, AS, and HA are all gone (after all, only 20% of the legacy carriers are still flying today, and deregulation occurred over 40 years ago), and the market will be dominated by WN, B6, NK, F9, and G4 - or it may not be, we just do not know.
Last edited by Gulfstream500 on Wed May 06, 2020 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
Brickell305
Posts: 998
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Wed May 06, 2020 6:32 pm

ScottB wrote:
tphuang wrote:
But even WNI don't see will ever dominate MCO point of sale. It's just such a fragmented market with such a large ULCC market and strong legacy presence.


WN probably does dominate Orlando point-of-sale; it's just that Orlando point-of-sale is a relatively small fraction of traffic as compared to all the inbound leisure passengers.

usflyer msp wrote:
Orlando has the lowest median wage out of the 50 largest metro areas in the US and the least affordable housing in the US compared to the median wage. It is an economy based on low wage service industry jobs and that does not lend itself to high yield business travelers that a legacy airline hub requires.


This is the key reason why MCO is unlikely to have a legacy hub in the future -- akin to why MEM lost its legacy hub.

Sdmccray1984 wrote:
Given the massive number of tourists to “The Happiest Place on Earth,” and AA’s success with US-Latin America connections at MIA, it would seem that MCO’s similar geographic position would lend itself to being used as a connection hub for a company like UAL in the future


Low-yield tourists do not make for a successful legacy hub. MIA is valuable for AA because Miami is the de facto financial capital of Latin America, the U.S. headquarters for many large corporations based in Latin America, and the Latin America head office for many U.S. companies.


This chart shows the percentage of originating passengers for airports in Florida. Orlando has the lowest percentage of originating traffic.

Image
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Can MCO ever become a legacy hub?

Wed May 06, 2020 7:32 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
The point of the statement was to show that the definition of a “legacy” airline could change.

And it was a point not based in fact, as again, the "legacy" refers to a specific event. That you imagine some other event "may" occur, doesn't change that.


You're ignoring the point of what I said.

Because it makes no sense. If we're going to randomly change a well characterized longstanding definition, then why not just call airplanes "boats" or birds "dogs."
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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