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skyhawk747
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Airline Business Questions

Thu May 21, 2020 9:32 pm

Hello

This is my first ever post since I joined in 2008.

I have been flying a lot in the last few years and that got me wondering

1. Is the number of daily flights per route limited per airline? For e.g. is Delta restricted a max of 6 flights per day from NYC to London?
2. Is an airline permitted to use any aircraft on any route? Say can an airline replace a 737 flying a 900 km route with an A380?
3. Is it allowed to clean and refuel a plane that just landed from a 16hr flight & immediately send it back on another 16 hr flight?
4. Are two captains and two F/O enough for a 16 hr flight?
5. How much does it cost to lease an A350-1000 and A220?
6. How much discount is given when you buy several A350-1000 & A220 at the same time?
7. How efficient is the A350 & 787 when compared to the 767 & 777 & A330? Efficient in terms of the amount of fuel used to fly a certain distance
not seat per mile per hour.
8. Is 365 days enough to teach a Bachelor’s degree holder from scratch to F/O on A220 (simulator training included)?
9. How common is it for an airline to have a hub in another country?
10. Does an airline have a bank account in every country it flies to or its just one special bank account?
11. Can we say a flight needs to be a third full to cover the fuel cost used for the flight?
So how do you become a millionaire? Start with a billion dollars and launch an airline
 
strfyr51
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Re: Airline Business Questions

Thu May 21, 2020 10:02 pm

to answer to #1? the slots allocated to Delta By LHR or LGW might be limited. due to congestion. In the USA? Delta could fly to any airport that isn't slot congested as many flights as they have airplanesas they already do in Atlanta. Only trouble is? the gate space to arrive and depart. has to be available.
 
strfyr51
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Airline Business Questions

Thu May 21, 2020 10:11 pm

#2? If the airport can handle the Aircraft. Not every airport could handle an A380 especially if the equipment to move the airplane isn't there. Aside from space to put it.
take for example HNL. That airport has seen everything under the Sun, NY JFK or EWR? for sure LGA? Not so much. I think it would be damn nice were United to base some A319's in Hawaii for inter-island flying. though right now? They have no ETOPS qualified A319's. (just a thought)
 
strfyr51
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Re: Airline Business Questions

Thu May 21, 2020 10:24 pm

#3 Yes it is and it's done all the time. Go to any Major gateway airport and you'll see it over and over again. I used to see the morning banks of airplanes coming in and turning from Asia at SFO. Singapore was a 12hr flight as Qantas, Thai, and Air China, China Air, and Japan Airlines. Singapore used to be an evening Departure as was United to Sydney, Air China to Taipei and China Air to Bejing.
 
ewt340
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Re: Airline Business Questions

Thu May 21, 2020 10:49 pm

3. Yes it is.
4. Yes it is. 2 Captain and 2 FO are enough for most long-haul flights.
6. Depends on the quantity of the aircraft they gonna purchase. The larger the number is, the bigger the discount is. Mixing different models in a single orders would still guarantee larger discount for the airlines. As long as the quantity of aircraft purchased in that single order is big enough.
7. Depends on the model. B767-200/-200ER, B777-200ER or A330-200 are probably not as efficient compared to B787 or A350. B777-300ER and A330-300 on the other hand are still efficient enough for many airlines because of their large capacity for B777-300ER or the lower range on A330-300 could match up B787-9 on shorter routes.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4900
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Re: Airline Business Questions

Thu May 21, 2020 11:11 pm

#. .. In many parts of the world they can do that as they have an Ab Inito training program. In the USA? No.
 
RushmoreAir
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:29 am

Re: Airline Business Questions

Fri May 22, 2020 3:50 am

skyhawk747 wrote:
Hello

This is my first ever post since I joined in 2008.

I have been flying a lot in the last few years and that got me wondering

1. Is the number of daily flights per route limited per airline? For e.g. is Delta restricted a max of 6 flights per day from NYC to London?
2. Is an airline permitted to use any aircraft on any route? Say can an airline replace a 737 flying a 900 km route with an A380?
3. Is it allowed to clean and refuel a plane that just landed from a 16hr flight & immediately send it back on another 16 hr flight?
4. Are two captains and two F/O enough for a 16 hr flight?
5. How much does it cost to lease an A350-1000 and A220?
6. How much discount is given when you buy several A350-1000 & A220 at the same time?
7. How efficient is the A350 & 787 when compared to the 767 & 777 & A330? Efficient in terms of the amount of fuel used to fly a certain distance
not seat per mile per hour.
8. Is 365 days enough to teach a Bachelor’s degree holder from scratch to F/O on A220 (simulator training included)?
9. How common is it for an airline to have a hub in another country?
10. Does an airline have a bank account in every country it flies to or its just one special bank account?
11. Can we say a flight needs to be a third full to cover the fuel cost used for the flight?



1) In many cases no, but in some cases yes. Route authorities are still a thing in some parts of the world, especially on international routes. Many western countries have switched to open skies, which means that as long as airlines have gates/slots/etc. they're free to fly whatever they wish. Slots in some airports (e.g. LHR) are harder to come by than others. In the U.S. only a couple airports are even slot constrained. If DL wanted to schedule 10 flights departing from MSP-SLC all one minute apart, nothing is stopping them.

2) Mostly yes. As long as it is technically capable! Some airports do have special restrictions/procedures which would obviously limit what airlines can do.

3) Yes, for a time. However, most aircraft/airlines have a maintenance program (whether hour/cycle/calendar driven) that will require an 'overnight' check of around ~10 hrs at least 1-2x per week.

5) Leasing costs vary considerably by age of aircraft, duration of lease, and financial stability/leverage of the airline. A brand new widebody can easily cost $1m USD+ per month, whereas used A319s are running <$100k/mo right now. All of this will change post-COVID, presumably lease rates will come down considerably for a time. The most recent version of LAXintl's fantastic lease pricing thread had A220s in the $200-300k/mo range and A350s running $800k-$1.1m/mo.

6) Depends on your definition of "several". A large national/legacy carrier ordering 100+ aircraft could easily negotiate 50% off list price. Smaller or lesser known carriers will be somewhere in between. Might be less successful with extremely popular types.

9) Less and less common. As range gets better with A350s/B787s, airlines don't need to stop over, so the main reason to have a foreign hub would be to take advantage of local O&D. Carriers are finding that harder to do on a large enough scale to be economically viable. See DL dismantling their NRT hub.

10) Don't know about the specific account(s), but airlines definitely deal a lot with foreign currencies. Some global carriers even finance aircraft in different currencies to take advantage of best global interest rates and as a currency hedge.

11) Used to be a good rule of thumb! In the world of COVID, jet fuel is <$1 USD/gal, so that number is much smaller.
NW UA DL F9 CO WN LO QF FI AC MU CA EU LH LX DY B6 AA HA NZ MW HU U2 SK AF EK IB HX WS G4 AZ IG 4B

The views and opinions as expressed in this post are entirely my own and are not those of my employer, Hawaiian Airlines, Inc
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4246
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Airline Business Questions

Fri May 22, 2020 1:19 pm

skyhawk747 wrote:
8. Is 365 days enough to teach a Bachelor’s degree holder from scratch to F/O on A220 (simulator training included)?


Legally, no. Realistically it will take at least 18 months to do your basic CPL license under an EASA integrated program, but that's assuming you pass every ATPL subject in the first go and weather permits you to fly your lessons.

The type rating for the A220 itself shouldn't take more than a month, possibly as little as two weeks.


skyhawk747 wrote:
9. How common is it for an airline to have a hub in another country?


Extremely common and happening more and more. See low cost airlines like Wizz Air and Norwegian. In Asia you have also have a bunch of them. Then there is SAS which has hubs in 3 Scandinavian countries.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11209
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Re: Airline Business Questions

Fri May 22, 2020 8:39 pm

More on #3 - before all "this" I saw it happening at JFK a lot. Cathay Pacific would usually come in unload and headed back out to Hong Kong for another 15-16 hour journey within 2 hours. Sometimes their schedules were 1 hr. 45 minute turns. While now 16 hours, Turkish Airlines, China Eastern, Air China would turn around pretty quickly - anywhere from 1 hour 45 minutes to 2 hours and roughly 15 minutes or so on the ground. I've noticed in the Swiss Air schedules a number of 1 hour 45 minute turns back out to Zurich.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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skyhawk747
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Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:53 pm

Re: Airline Business Questions

Sat May 23, 2020 8:33 pm

VSMUT wrote:
skyhawk747 wrote:
8. Is 365 days enough to teach a Bachelor’s degree holder from scratch to F/O on A220 (simulator training included)?


Legally, no. Realistically it will take at least 18 months to do your basic CPL license under an EASA integrated program, but that's assuming you pass every ATPL subject in the first go and weather permits you to fly your lessons.

The type rating for the A220 itself shouldn't take more than a month, possibly as little as two weeks.


skyhawk747 wrote:
9. How common is it for an airline to have a hub in another country?


Extremely common and happening more and more. See low cost airlines like Wizz Air and Norwegian. In Asia you have also have a bunch of them. Then there is SAS which has hubs in 3 Scandinavian countries.


There is a prestigious flight school in South Africa that say they train from zero to F/O on 737 NG in 13 months.
https://www.43airschool.com/
So how do you become a millionaire? Start with a billion dollars and launch an airline
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4246
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Airline Business Questions

Sat May 23, 2020 9:09 pm

skyhawk747 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
skyhawk747 wrote:
8. Is 365 days enough to teach a Bachelor’s degree holder from scratch to F/O on A220 (simulator training included)?


Legally, no. Realistically it will take at least 18 months to do your basic CPL license under an EASA integrated program, but that's assuming you pass every ATPL subject in the first go and weather permits you to fly your lessons.

The type rating for the A220 itself shouldn't take more than a month, possibly as little as two weeks.


skyhawk747 wrote:
9. How common is it for an airline to have a hub in another country?


Extremely common and happening more and more. See low cost airlines like Wizz Air and Norwegian. In Asia you have also have a bunch of them. Then there is SAS which has hubs in 3 Scandinavian countries.


There is a prestigious flight school in South Africa that say they train from zero to F/O on 737 NG in 13 months.
https://www.43airschool.com/


I'm sure they have a disclaimer saying "as little as". But that flying school (which I definitely wouldn't describe as "prestigious") will only get you a South African license, which is worthless in most of the world.
 
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skyhawk747
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Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:53 pm

Re: Airline Business Questions

Tue May 26, 2020 12:08 pm

VSMUT wrote:
skyhawk747 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Legally, no. Realistically it will take at least 18 months to do your basic CPL license under an EASA integrated program, but that's assuming you pass every ATPL subject in the first go and weather permits you to fly your lessons.

The type rating for the A220 itself shouldn't take more than a month, possibly as little as two weeks.




Extremely common and happening more and more. See low cost airlines like Wizz Air and Norwegian. In Asia you have also have a bunch of them. Then there is SAS which has hubs in 3 Scandinavian countries.


There is a prestigious flight school in South Africa that say they train from zero to F/O on 737 NG in 13 months.
https://www.43airschool.com/


I'm sure they have a disclaimer saying "as little as". But that flying school (which I definitely wouldn't describe as "prestigious") will only get you a South African license, which is worthless in most of the world.


43 Air School is world-renowned. It was established circa WW2. Airlines from all over the world send their cadets there.
So how do you become a millionaire? Start with a billion dollars and launch an airline
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4246
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Airline Business Questions

Tue May 26, 2020 1:45 pm

skyhawk747 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
skyhawk747 wrote:

There is a prestigious flight school in South Africa that say they train from zero to F/O on 737 NG in 13 months.
https://www.43airschool.com/


I'm sure they have a disclaimer saying "as little as". But that flying school (which I definitely wouldn't describe as "prestigious") will only get you a South African license, which is worthless in most of the world.


43 Air School is world-renowned. It was established circa WW2. Airlines from all over the world send their cadets there.


Oh dear, you have a looooong way to go...

They turned 30 in 2018 (as per their own facebook page), so they were established circa 1988. You are confusing them for a WWII air training plan facility that they are likely named for, but they are completely unrelated.

I don't know where you got the idea that "airlines from all over the world send their cadets there". Very few airlines run cadet programs in the first place, and the big ones are fairly easy to keep tabs on. Their own website has a rather short list of mostly African airlines plus Vietjet, Vietnam Airlines and Cathay, at which graduates found work.

There is even a comprehensive review by a user on Pprune, and while not negative, it isn't flattering either. Other than that, there is very little stuff to be found on them on the internet.

For all I know, the school may provide excellent training, but don't fall for this "renown" or "prestige" that you found somewhere. It's not a relevant point, every school tries to claim it and it is unlikely to get you a job outside of the country itself, because barely any recruiters will have heard of the place before.
 
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skyhawk747
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Re: Airline Business Questions

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:05 am

How many fulltime pilots do airlines generally hire per plane? I have read estimates of 160-180 pilots working for an airline with just 10 widebodies flying out of JFK to Europe.
So how do you become a millionaire? Start with a billion dollars and launch an airline
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4246
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Airline Business Questions

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:35 am

skyhawk747 wrote:
How many fulltime pilots do airlines generally hire per plane? I have read estimates of 160-180 pilots working for an airline with just 10 widebodies flying out of JFK to Europe.


You realistically need 6 crews for a short hauler that flies a normal full time schedule, 8 is optimal. So that makes 120 for 10 European narrowbodies. I worked at a cargo airline with 10 planes that only flew 2 sectors per night on weekdays only (with one in reserve and one for charter and maintenance). We had 80 pilots.
 
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skyhawk747
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Re: Airline Business Questions

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:34 am

Wow! The airline business is expensive. 10 planes need no less than a hundred fulltime pilots. I wonder how many flight attendants are employed.
So how do you become a millionaire? Start with a billion dollars and launch an airline

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