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Sdmccray1984
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The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:24 pm

In Asia, most airports located far from their respective cities are connected to their CBD by rail. But in North America, we build many airports very far from the CBD, with no rapid transit options. Think LAX, IAD, MCI, etc. Why oh why do we do this? What are the worst(or best) examples?
 
Max Q
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:35 pm

CBD ?
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klm617
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:41 pm

DTW has very limited mass transit connections.
Last edited by klm617 on Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EWRandMDW
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:41 pm

Sdmccray1984 wrote:
In Asia, most airports located far from their respective cities are connected to their CBD by rail. But in North America, we build many airports very far from the CBD, with no rapid transit options. Think LAX, IAD, MCI, etc. Why oh why do we do this? What are the worst(or best) examples?


In Chicago MDW was for years the only game in town as far as a commercial airport. But once it became clear that jets were the future of civil aviation, MDW was no longer a viable option. Chicago had to have a much bigger airport. The city acquired the old Orchard Place Airport where Douglas Aircraft built transports during WW2 and added large a large amount of acreage. Thus ORD (OrchaRD) came into being. It was in located in the boondocks, but roadways were built to reach it from the city and by 1984 the CTA Blue Line finally reached the airport.

The thing is that in many places in the US large tracts of land were (are) available for development. However, these tracts are typically pretty far from the city centers. And as for rail, except for a handful of progressive cities, the car is the king of transportation in this country. Even some cities with available rail options don't go directly to the airport. Examples are LGA in NYC, PIT, SAN, BNA. IAD will have rail connections as the Silver Line is under construction. I think LAX will also, but I'm not sure.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:47 pm

Sdmccray1984 wrote:
In Asia, most airports located far from their respective cities are connected to their CBD by rail. But in North America, we build many airports very far from the CBD, with no rapid transit options. Think LAX, IAD, MCI, etc. Why oh why do we do this? What are the worst(or best) examples?


Asked and answered many times:

1. Most North American cities are not dominated by a central business district. Most metro areas in the U.S. are characterized by suburban development which is difficult to effectively serve with rapid transit. The question above asking to define a CBD is humorously on-point.

2. There is poor correlation between having an airport connection and rapid transit ridership. Subway, light-rail, and commuter-rail connections to an airport are expensive and provide few benefits so they fail an ROI test. Rapid transit ridership is overwhelmingly dominated by locals and can be predicted with two variables: jobs and residents within a half-mile of a transit station. Airport traffic on rapid transit is generally rounding error.
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flyfresno
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:51 pm

Just off the top of my head and in the US, DEN, DTW, MCI, OAJ; to lesser extents PIT, SMF, and RSW.
 
mattyfitzg
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:10 pm

You’ll never know true inconvenience unless you’ve flown to/from Luton!
 
btbx11
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:28 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Just off the top of my head and in the US, DEN, DTW, MCI, OAJ; to lesser extents PIT, SMF, and RSW.

DEN has had convenient rail service to dowtown for a few years now.
 
jamsco99
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:37 pm

mattyfitzg wrote:
You’ll never know true inconvenience unless you’ve flown to/from Luton!


Luton isn't too bad (despite the bus), trains to st pancras taking 30 minutes.
 
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:37 pm

Mirabel
 
77H
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:46 pm

btbx11 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Just off the top of my head and in the US, DEN, DTW, MCI, OAJ; to lesser extents PIT, SMF, and RSW.

DEN has had convenient rail service to dowtown for a few years now.


Considering DEN has been operational for ~25 years, and the rail link was completed in the last 5, DEN certainly deserves mention.

While not necessarily major airports serving a single specific city, KOA and OGG come to mind as inconvenient airports relative to many of the major resort areas most visitors stay.

OGG to West Maui is a 45 minute drive if everything is perfect but usually an hour-hour.5. During Whale Season, forget about it. Additionally, several large brush fires have completely cut off West Maui from OGG over the past few years stranding passengers and crew alike, sometimes for several days.
KOA to Waikoloa isn’t as bad, but can still push 45 minutes to an hour with normal traffic. While not seemingly terrible, when you consider the travel time relative to distance traveled it puts it into perspective.

77H
 
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falstaff
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:01 pm

klm617 wrote:
DTW has very limited mass transit connections.


The one they have isn't even well known. You can take the bus to downtown Detroit; it stops in front of the Renaissance Center. A few years ago there was an organization wanting commuter rail between Detroit, Dearborn and Ann Arbor. They wanted to have a bus connection in Inkster that would go to the airport. That plan didn't go anywhere, but the state did buy some ex Burlington commuter coaches from Metra to prepare for the service. I didn't think the bus connection in Inkster was a good idea. Inkster isn't exactly a great place to be wondering around if you're a stranger. I live less than a mile from Inkster and I don't think it's the kind of place out of town visitors want to wait around for a bus, especially at night. Every now and then somebody thinks that they should run a commuter train to the airport on Norfolk Southern's line that runs just north of DTW. A passenger train on that line would only be useful to go to the airport from downtown and few inner ring suburbs, that aren't particularly affluent. The idea would be a money loser and I doubt NS would want any part of it. The only potential decent commuter route is the ex New York Central line between Ann Arbor and Detroit. The state and Amtrak already own a good portion of the line, but that doesn't go near the airport.

Yes, DTW is far from downtown Detroit but Willow Run is even further. Prior to 1966 a lot of airlines served YIP. You can still see United Airlines painted on one of the buildings if the sun hits it right. Getting from YIP to downtown Detroit must have been a challenge back in the day.
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MIflyer12
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:35 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Sdmccray1984 wrote:
In Asia, most airports located far from their respective cities are connected to their CBD by rail. But in North America, we build many airports very far from the CBD, with no rapid transit options. Think LAX, IAD, MCI, etc. Why oh why do we do this? What are the worst(or best) examples?


Asked and answered many times:

1. Most North American cities are not dominated by a central business district. Most metro areas in the U.S. are characterized by suburban development which is difficult to effectively serve with rapid transit. The question above asking to define a CBD is humorously on-point.

2. There is poor correlation between having an airport connection and rapid transit ridership. Subway, light-rail, and commuter-rail connections to an airport are expensive and provide few benefits so they fail an ROI test. Rapid transit ridership is overwhelmingly dominated by locals and can be predicted with two variables: jobs and residents within a half-mile of a transit station. Airport traffic on rapid transit is generally rounding error.


That is a very good answer.

That the OP asks about transit options, and assumes absence of transit means that airports are inconvenient, means he doesn't understand American transportation. DTW is, for example, an easy 22-minute drive along toll-free freeways from the downtown riverfront (using the Ren Cen as a proxy). Most everyone in metro Detroit that can afford to fly has a car. It's fair to say that the clear majority of the 4.3 million people living in the Detroit-Warren-Dearborn MSA lives within a 45-minute drive of DTW. DTW is neither distant nor inconvenient.

Public transit in the Kansas City MSA? Hah hah hah hah hah! The population density is way too low, and population dispersed over more than 8,000 sq miles, to serve with any frequency. It's 2.2 million people over an area 13x the size of Greater London.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:18 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Just off the top of my head and in the US, DEN, DTW, MCI, OAJ; to lesser extents PIT, SMF, and RSW.


RSW, really!! :stirthepot: It is a 20 minute drive from the airport to downtown Ft. Myers. While I agree no rail service from RSW, it would take longer than driving unless the train did not make any stops.
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mmo
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:42 pm

Frankfurt Hahn.
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ITSTours
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:58 pm

IAD will be off the list soon. Hopefully!
 
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:07 pm

mattyfitzg wrote:
You’ll never know true inconvenience unless you’ve flown to/from Luton!


I did that one time back when La Compagnie flew LTN-EWR and I was staying a Canary Wharf. I think it was an hour and a half drive.


Although I would say EWR is close to being one of the worst as well during rush hour which just so happens to coincide when most people leave for the airport for TATL flights.
Easily $100 Ubers. The tunnels and bridges create really bad choke points, the only thing worse is the trains which are packed full of commuters home and to the airport.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:13 pm

A lot of secondary airports in Europe can be named here. I've already heard London Luton and Frankfurt Hahn, sure there are others.

Out of the top of my head:

- Oslo Sandefjord Torp
- Warsaw Modlin
- Dusseldorf Weeze
- Milan Bergamo
- Stockholm Skavsta
- Barcelona Girona
- Barcelona Reus
- Paris Beauvais
- Munich Memmingen

Most of these airports are far out of their respective cities and don't have rail connections, however usually there is a scheduled shuttle bus service available. In that way they're not too inconvenient.

That scheduled bus service is something rather unique to Europe, it doesn't exist in other parts of the world. Although it was tried when Norwegian flew into New York Stewart, which is similar to the European secondary airports. Most passengers on these buses were Europeans since they're used to these kind of services. But as Norwegian cut their flights to Stewart, that also meant the end of the bus service.
 
mchei
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:15 pm

mmo wrote:
Frankfurt Hahn.


Or “Hamburg-Lübeck”. Or “Milano-Bergamo”. To be continued.
This is specific to LCC. We know that this changed with Ryanair flying into Hamburg HAM or Frankfurt FRA, for example.

My favorite airport in Germany is Munich, MUC. But when you go there to go downtown Munich - well, then this airport is not so nice. Almost one hour by regional train stopping a hundred times, no toilets aboard.
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klm617
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Sdmccray1984 wrote:
In Asia, most airports located far from their respective cities are connected to their CBD by rail. But in North America, we build many airports very far from the CBD, with no rapid transit options. Think LAX, IAD, MCI, etc. Why oh why do we do this? What are the worst(or best) examples?


Asked and answered many times:

1. Most North American cities are not dominated by a central business district. Most metro areas in the U.S. are characterized by suburban development which is difficult to effectively serve with rapid transit. The question above asking to define a CBD is humorously on-point.

2. There is poor correlation between having an airport connection and rapid transit ridership. Subway, light-rail, and commuter-rail connections to an airport are expensive and provide few benefits so they fail an ROI test. Rapid transit ridership is overwhelmingly dominated by locals and can be predicted with two variables: jobs and residents within a half-mile of a transit station. Airport traffic on rapid transit is generally rounding error.


That is a very good answer.

That the OP asks about transit options, and assumes absence of transit means that airports are inconvenient, means he doesn't understand American transportation. DTW is, for example, an easy 22-minute drive along toll-free freeways from the downtown riverfront (using the Ren Cen as a proxy). Most everyone in metro Detroit that can afford to fly has a car. It's fair to say that the clear majority of the 4.3 million people living in the Detroit-Warren-Dearborn MSA lives within a 45-minute drive of DTW. DTW is neither distant nor inconvenient.

Public transit in the Kansas City MSA? Hah hah hah hah hah! The population density is way too low, and population dispersed over more than 8,000 sq miles, to serve with any frequency. It's 2.2 million people over an area 13x the size of Greater London.


Yes but here is the thing. If we want to be more attractive to new business and the like to grow the market you need better alternatives to getting to the airport. We need to have options for those who are looking to come into the Detroit area for business or pleasure. Suppose I want to come in from Toronto or Chicago to watch a sporting event and don't want to be bothered with renting a car that option is almost impossible not to mention inconvenient. We need to have more attractive options with ease of use for out of town visitors. Effective travel on public transport any were east of Woodward and North of 8 Mile road is nonexistent. I'm pretty sure back in the day there was frequent bus service from Downtown Detroit to YIP. I remember back in the 80's taking an express bus service from the Troy Hilton to DTW for $12.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
johns624
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:31 pm

The CBD/downtown isn't as important in many parts of North America as the rest of the world. In many European and Asian cities, the wealthy live in the center city. In many NA cities, the majority live in the suburbs. Take DTW, for example. A rail line to downtown wouldn't do much. However, building the I-275 bypass 40 years ago opened up all the western and northern suburbs to easy access to DTW. That's where many of the regular travelers live. Also, per capita car ownership in NA is probably higher than in many other places.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:35 pm

mchei wrote:
We know that this changed with Ryanair flying into Hamburg HAM or Frankfurt FRA, for example.


Not entirely.

In most cases they didn't move to the major airports, they added them. Only there have been a few cases where the minor airport closed and thus they had to move over to the major airport, for example in Gothenborg they flew into City / Säve airport. When that closed they had no other option than to move their flights to Landvetter, the major airport. Basically the same thing happened in Hamburg / Lübeck.

In Frankfurt on the other hand, they never left Hahn. They added Frankfurt International as a new destination, but meanwhile they also kept flying from Frankfurt Hahn. In fact, for quite some time the majority of Frankfurt flights kept being operated out of Hahn.
 
mchei
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:45 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
mchei wrote:
We know that this changed with Ryanair flying into Hamburg HAM or Frankfurt FRA, for example.


Not entirely.

In most cases they didn't move to the major airports, they added them. Only there have been a few cases where the minor airport closed and thus they had to move over to the major airport, for example in Gothenborg they flew into City / Säve airport. When that closed they had no other option than to move their flights to Landvetter, the major airport. Basically the same thing happened in Hamburg / Lübeck.

In Frankfurt on the other hand, they never left Hahn. They added Frankfurt International as a new destination, but meanwhile they also kept flying from Frankfurt Hahn. In fact, for quite some time the majority of Frankfurt flights kept being operated out of Hahn.


True. And thank you for your post earlier in this thread, by the way. Let’s agree on the fact that Europe and LCCs are different from what the person who opened this thread wants to know :)
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PatrickZ80
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:46 pm

klm617 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
That is a very good answer.

That the OP asks about transit options, and assumes absence of transit means that airports are inconvenient, means he doesn't understand American transportation. DTW is, for example, an easy 22-minute drive along toll-free freeways from the downtown riverfront (using the Ren Cen as a proxy). Most everyone in metro Detroit that can afford to fly has a car. It's fair to say that the clear majority of the 4.3 million people living in the Detroit-Warren-Dearborn MSA lives within a 45-minute drive of DTW. DTW is neither distant nor inconvenient.

Public transit in the Kansas City MSA? Hah hah hah hah hah! The population density is way too low, and population dispersed over more than 8,000 sq miles, to serve with any frequency. It's 2.2 million people over an area 13x the size of Greater London.


Yes but here is the thing. If we want to be more attractive to new business and the like to grow the market you need better alternatives to getting to the airport. We need to have options for those who are looking to come into the Detroit area for business or pleasure. Suppose I want to come in from Toronto or Chicago to watch a sporting event and don't want to be bothered with renting a car that option is almost impossible not to mention inconvenient. We need to have more attractive options with ease of use for out of town visitors. Effective travel on public transport any were east of Woodward and North of 8 Mile road is nonexistent. I'm pretty sure back in the day there was frequent bus service from Downtown Detroit to YIP. I remember back in the 80's taking an express bus service from the Troy Hilton to DTW for $12.


Agreed.

Public transport to the airport might not be very relevant if it's your local airport, but if it's your destination airport (where you don't have a car) you got to have some way of getting from the airport to the city. It's a given that most people who use public transport to/from an airport aren't locals.

So as a city or airport you should always think, people from elsewhere arriving at your airport, where do they want to go and how can you get them there? I feel like this is something European airports do a whole lot better than American airports. I mean, in Europe even the tiniest secondary airport has a bus service to downtown. Why is this so hard to do in America? Again, such bus services aren't about the locals. They're about the visitors.
 
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:53 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Just off the top of my head and in the US, DEN, DTW, MCI, OAJ; to lesser extents PIT, SMF, and RSW.


RSW, really!! :stirthepot: It is a 20 minute drive from the airport to downtown Ft. Myers. While I agree no rail service from RSW, it would take longer than driving unless the train did not make any stops.


I guess I misunderstood the point of the thread. I thought the notion of adding rail was merely trivial and that the main point was discussing airports that are far away from city centers and inconvenient to get to, regardless of public transit options. I suppose my bias was based on how our public transit options are often inadequate, even when they do exist. You would never see a rail option like the Shanghai Maglev or the Narita Express in the US. Denver actually has a fairly good time for how far away it is; DEN is almost 10 miles further from its city center than SFO is, yet BART takes about the same amount of time as the A Line. Anyway, my mistake.
 
ScottB
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:34 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Public transport to the airport might not be very relevant if it's your local airport, but if it's your destination airport (where you don't have a car) you got to have some way of getting from the airport to the city. It's a given that most people who use public transport to/from an airport aren't locals.


I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that in many metro regions in North America, the majority of people using transit to get to the airport are people who work at the airport, particularly in places where employee parking is scarce or expensive. For most trips, business or leisure, the cost of a cab or Uber to/from the airport is practically negligible compared to the cost of air tickets, hotels, meals, tickets to attractions, etc. Passengers using transit to or from an airport are typically extremely price-sensitive -- so the model of bus service to outlying airports like LTN or STN or HHN or BVA works for FR's passengers. Passengers paying for a business class seat from JFK or IAD to LHR aren't going to the airport on the subway.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
So as a city or airport you should always think, people from elsewhere arriving at your airport, where do they want to go and how can you get them there? I feel like this is something European airports do a whole lot better than American airports.


Oh, airport operators and local politicians are well aware of how visitors will spend money. That's why taxes and fees on things like hotels and car rentals are so high -- they are the perfect form of taxation. Virtually all of it is paid by people who don't vote locally! To some degree, airport operators don't really want travelers to take transit to the airport -- they want passengers to park in on-airport facilities to generate parking revenue, or at the very least take a cab or shared ride on which the airport can collect a fee. There are only a handful of very busy airports which need to divert passengers into less lucrative modes of transport due to a shortage of parking facilities or roadway infrastructure.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:27 pm

What about BPX? The airport is 14,220 feet above sea level, with an 18,000-foot runway, and is 2.5 hours away from Qamda in Tibet...necessitated by the fact that that area is the only plateau in the area. This aerodrome only sees domestic China flights, almost if not all on the 319 or 73G.
 
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:30 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
1. Most North American cities are not dominated by a central business district. Most metro areas in the U.S. are characterized by suburban development which is difficult to effectively serve with rapid transit. The question above asking to define a CBD is humorously on-point.

Does settlement decide the infrastructure or does the infrastructure decide where people settle?

DfwRevolution wrote:
2. There is poor correlation between having an airport connection and rapid transit ridership. Subway, light-rail, and commuter-rail connections to an airport are expensive and provide few benefits so they fail an ROI test. Rapid transit ridership is overwhelmingly dominated by locals and can be predicted with two variables: jobs and residents within a half-mile of a transit station. Airport traffic on rapid transit is generally rounding error.

Good point that rail traffic to airports is rather negligible compared to other city traffic. I disagree about your half mile. It's o.k. to need eight minutes with bicycle to the suburban train station provided there are also buses for people with reduced mobility, maybe 1 to 1,5 km parallel to the rail track. And in the suburbs the railways can provide car parking places next to the station.
Where will airport employees rent a flat? Probably in villages surrounding the airport. What if the woman works at the airport, but the man in the city?

If one considers tax on petrol those countries with high tax on petrol will get a return on investment for public infrastructure. But public infrastructure is not meant to bring return on investment. It's a service to the citizens. Obviously there are limits what can reasonable be financed.
Suppose the government builds a suburban rail line. For 50 years it's loss making. However more and more people settle along the line. In time it becomes profitable. Should the government build it?

I wonder that Americans still get children. What's the return on investment?
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Sokes
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:25 pm

mchei wrote:
My favorite airport in Germany is Munich, MUC. But when you go there to go downtown Munich - well, then this airport is not so nice. Almost one hour by regional train stopping a hundred times, no toilets aboard.


Munich builds a second trunk line (red colour) including tunnel through the city, parallel to the old one.

Image
source: https://www.stmb.bayern.de/med/aktuell/ ... /index.php

It will stop at the five most important old stations and bypass six stations.
A suburban train will start every 15 min from a town 40 - 50 km outside Munich. It will stop at all existing stops until 20 - 25 km from Munich. There is a stop at which a second suburban train waits at the same platform. This second suburban train will leave two minutes after the other train and stop at all stations. The original train will stop only if there is a station with subway connection until it reaches the second trunk line.
It reaches the first stop on the second trunk line 3-5 minutes after the earlier suburban train which stopped everywhere. In the second tunnel the original train overtakes this train and reaches the other end of the trunk line 2 minutes earlier. It then proceeds nonstop (few stops) and reaches a station 20 - 25 km outside Munich maybe three minutes after one more suburban train that stopped everywhere.
People who live more than 20 - 25 km outside Munich can therefore save 10 minutes to get to the center. The main reason for the second trunk line is of course capacity addition.
Speaking of the airport suburban train: After 2028 one can cut 10 minutes of the 40 minutes it takes today to reach the city center. Add 5 - 10 min average waiting time.
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DFW17L
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:23 pm

DFW airport is the middle of the Dallas/Fort Worth metro area. It's connected by multiple major freeways (114, 121, 161, 183, 360, and 635). There are two light rail stations that terminate at the terminals (Dallas Area Rapid Transit at Terminal A, and Fort Worth T at Terminal B), a third light rail is planned from the northern suburbs in a few years, and a heavy rail station to the south can be reached by shuttle bus. In other words, there are a lot of transportation options. I've lived here 25 years and I can say that infrastructure is a key strategy our elected leaders pay close attention to.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:59 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Sdmccray1984 wrote:
In Asia, most airports located far from their respective cities are connected to their CBD by rail. But in North America, we build many airports very far from the CBD, with no rapid transit options. Think LAX, IAD, MCI, etc. Why oh why do we do this? What are the worst(or best) examples?


Asked and answered many times:

1. Most North American cities are not dominated by a central business district. Most metro areas in the U.S. are characterized by suburban development which is difficult to effectively serve with rapid transit. The question above asking to define a CBD is humorously on-point.

2. There is poor correlation between having an airport connection and rapid transit ridership. Subway, light-rail, and commuter-rail connections to an airport are expensive and provide few benefits so they fail an ROI test. Rapid transit ridership is overwhelmingly dominated by locals and can be predicted with two variables: jobs and residents within a half-mile of a transit station. Airport traffic on rapid transit is generally rounding error.


To add - airports need a lot of land. In many metro areas, depending on when the airport was built, the land needed can only be found several miles away from the "CBD". For example, DEN airport planners wanted to make sure the airport had enough land for current and future operations. At DEN, each current concourse can be expanded to 99 gates, and then there's room for a concourse D and E. Furthermore, I believe DEN can add several more runways if needed. That's an extraordinary amount of land that needs to be available.
 
Kent350787
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:29 am

Max Q wrote:
CBD ?


Downtown for the US residents.
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CarlosSi
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:10 pm

Narita from Tokyo seems a pretty long way.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:41 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
Narita from Tokyo seems a pretty long way.


It is, but at least there's a high speed rail link between the airport and the city. So while it might be distant, it's not inconvenient. It would be inconvenient without that rail link.

Same reason for Milan Malpensa is more convenient than Bergamo. Both airports are more or less equally far from the city, but Malpensa has a direct rail link. Bergamo only has a bus, but no rail.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:40 pm

ScottB wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Public transport to the airport might not be very relevant if it's your local airport, but if it's your destination airport (where you don't have a car) you got to have some way of getting from the airport to the city. It's a given that most people who use public transport to/from an airport aren't locals.


I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that in many metro regions in North America, the majority of people using transit to get to the airport are people who work at the airport, particularly in places where employee parking is scarce or expensive. For most trips, business or leisure, the cost of a cab or Uber to/from the airport is practically negligible compared to the cost of air tickets, hotels, meals, tickets to attractions, etc. Passengers using transit to or from an airport are typically extremely price-sensitive -- so the model of bus service to outlying airports like LTN or STN or HHN or BVA works for FR's passengers. Passengers paying for a business class seat from JFK or IAD to LHR aren't going to the airport on the subway.


I see it as more city-dependent than anything else. If there's reasonably comfortable transit and especially in cities with bad traffic, I'll certainly consider transit. I almost always use transit to and from DCA if my final destination is in the District (the subway isn't comfortable but it's such a short ride that it doesn't matter, and I can day trip D.C. so often don't have luggage). Likewise, in Toronto the UP Express is such a timesaver to and from the CBD that I use it routinely. It's a very different story at LGA or PHX, or for something like flying to Toronto to go to Missasagua. .
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dfwjim1
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:03 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Just off the top of my head and in the US, DEN, DTW, MCI, OAJ; to lesser extents PIT, SMF, and RSW.


RSW, really!! :stirthepot: It is a 20 minute drive from the airport to downtown Ft. Myers. While I agree no rail service from RSW, it would take longer than driving unless the train did not make any stops.


Plus Fort Myers is not a large city and the people who live in the metro area who have money live in surrounding towns.
 
BusBlitz
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:38 am

[photoid][/photoid]
btbx11 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Just off the top of my head and in the US, DEN, DTW, MCI, OAJ; to lesser extents PIT, SMF, and RSW.

DEN has had convenient rail service to dowtown for a few years now.
We've had rail service to the airport.
 
maverick4002
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:09 am

EZE is a pretty far distance from Buenos Aires tbh, and as far as I recall there isnt a train or anything. I took a taxi
 
flipdewaf
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:51 am

I love my "local" airport, LBA as I can get a reasonably times flight from there to LHR and then connect to almost anywhere in the world. I have in the past traveled to LHR or MAN by train and it is super easy as I have a station close enough to my house (15miles) where I can begin the journey however teh journey takes 3.5hrs to LHR and 2hrs to MAN. LBA however is on the top of a Hill and so no trains there, you can get a bus in to Leeds and then the train from there but by the time you have done that you have lost the will to live. I can (and do regularly) do a one way hire from LBA to home but the reality of hiring a car from the airport is that you have to then take a bus or walk to where land is cheap enough to park cars (airport perimeter) and then do all the rigmarole of getting the car. SO LBA is great but not ideal from a getting to and from, even for a local.

Fred
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max999
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:42 pm

I nominate LGA for being inconvenient. Despite the airport being very close to the city, the transport links are terrible.

Transport by car:
The Grand Central Parkway is the major road for LGA. The traffic congestion on the road is almost 24/7. It's not a dedicated route that goes exclusively to the airport so the road is full of cars going to other destinations, creating more congestion. The road maintenance and conditions are poor, which causes further traffic slowdowns.

Transport by bus:
There are only five bus lines that go to the airport and only one of them goes into Manhattan! The other four bus lines are local bus lines which serve the surrounding areas. The bus line that goes into Manhattan is often full and is usually delayed because the line also picks up local passengers; it's not a dedicated airport bus. The line is a hybrid between a local and express service. The buses also suffer the same traffic congestion on Grand Central Parkway.

Transport by train:
There is no train to LGA. There is a plan to build one, but the train route has been heavily criticized because it goes in the direction away from Manhattan. There's also a risk that this project may not get built due to aviation-related budget cuts post pandemic.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
Narita from Tokyo seems a pretty long way.


It is, but at least there's a high speed rail link between the airport and the city. So while it might be distant, it's not inconvenient. It would be inconvenient without that rail link.

Same reason for Milan Malpensa is more convenient than Bergamo. Both airports are more or less equally far from the city, but Malpensa has a direct rail link. Bergamo only has a bus, but no rail.


My flight attendant friend calls NRT "Not Really Tokyo" because it's so far outside the city. I believe the airport is located 50 - 60 km (31 - 37 mi) from central Tokyo.
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upperdeckfan
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:44 pm

EZE, CCS, GRU are inconvenient
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
Max Q
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:22 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:



If you have to provide a link to explain your abbreviations why not just avoid them ?!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:13 pm

max999 wrote:
I nominate LGA for being inconvenient. Despite the airport being very close to the city, the transport links are terrible.

Transport by car:
The Grand Central Parkway is the major road for LGA. The traffic congestion on the road is almost 24/7. It's not a dedicated route that goes exclusively to the airport so the road is full of cars going to other destinations, creating more congestion. The road maintenance and conditions are poor, which causes further traffic slowdowns.

Transport by bus:
There are only five bus lines that go to the airport and only one of them goes into Manhattan! The other four bus lines are local bus lines which serve the surrounding areas. The bus line that goes into Manhattan is often full and is usually delayed because the line also picks up local passengers; it's not a dedicated airport bus. The line is a hybrid between a local and express service. The buses also suffer the same traffic congestion on Grand Central Parkway.

Transport by train:
There is no train to LGA. There is a plan to build one, but the train route has been heavily criticized because it goes in the direction away from Manhattan. There's also a risk that this project may not get built due to aviation-related budget cuts post pandemic.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
Narita from Tokyo seems a pretty long way.


It is, but at least there's a high speed rail link between the airport and the city. So while it might be distant, it's not inconvenient. It would be inconvenient without that rail link.

Same reason for Milan Malpensa is more convenient than Bergamo. Both airports are more or less equally far from the city, but Malpensa has a direct rail link. Bergamo only has a bus, but no rail.


My flight attendant friend calls NRT "Not Really Tokyo" because it's so far outside the city. I believe the airport is located 50 - 60 km (31 - 37 mi) from central Tokyo.


Hahahah, yes I have heard of this. It's funny.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:14 pm

From the Boeing museum in 2011:

Image

I apologize for the terrible quality, but it is from a long time ago...

Now that we have major distances, we need to cross-reference each with their ease of accessibility.
 
Sokes
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:15 am

flipdewaf wrote:
I love my "local" airport, LBA as I can get a reasonably times flight from there to LHR and then connect to almost anywhere in the world.
Fred

I just checked on google maps. It says the train from Leeds to London's King's Cross takes 2,5 hours, but to LHR 3,5 hours. Makes me wonder if LHR doesn't qualify?
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Leeds,+ ... 51.4700223
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kavok
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:32 am

The other major change, in a North America, is the popularity of Uber/Lyft. If you can afford the plane ticket, you can afford the Uber ride to your destination. Otherwise, transit to the North American airport is really only necessary for two reasons:
1- traffic is so bad that Uber/Lyfts are very unreliable, long, and slow., in which case rail is actually faster.
2- you are an airport worker and need a ride to your job, and it costs too much to take Uber to work every day.
 
DesertAir
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:38 pm

When I visited El Salvador I found the international airport very far from San Salvador. It was about a good 40 minute ride from the city.
 
klm617
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:12 pm

kavok wrote:
The other major change, in a North America, is the popularity of Uber/Lyft. If you can afford the plane ticket, you can afford the Uber ride to your destination. Otherwise, transit to the North American airport is really only necessary for two reasons:
1- traffic is so bad that Uber/Lyfts are very unreliable, long, and slow., in which case rail is actually faster.
2- you are an airport worker and need a ride to your job, and it costs too much to take Uber to work every day.



Sorry but I may be a bit old fashioned but I still don't trust getting in a car with a complete stranger.
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flipdewaf
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Re: The most distant/inconvenient airports to their city

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:29 pm

Sokes wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I love my "local" airport, LBA as I can get a reasonably times flight from there to LHR and then connect to almost anywhere in the world.
Fred

I just checked on google maps. It says the train from Leeds to London's King's Cross takes 2,5 hours, but to LHR 3,5 hours. Makes me wonder if LHR doesn't qualify?
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Leeds,+ ... 51.4700223


LHR qualify for what?

I live about 25mins from Malton station which takes then about 4hrs to get to LHR and realistically aim to arrive 2.5-3hrs before departure. leeds is 1hr and 15min drive + 50min flight to LHR, flight leave LBA at ~11am so I need to leave home at about 08:30 to arrive at LBA at 09:45.

The dilemma is that the train is a nicer way to travel than a car but I don't know if 4hrs train with 3 changes with bags and an earlier wake up on the outbound is better than getting off a redeye changing planes in london then having to drive 1hr:15 from leeds whilst tired.

Luckily I have a good lady wife who comes to pick me up most of the time so the vote inevitably goes with leeds.

Fred
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