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Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:34 pm

I am shocked by this piece published by CNN:

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html

It shows a careless airline not enforcing social distancing rules aboard, only requiring that passengers wear useless paper masks that do not meet any filtration standards. Passengers do not seem amused by the situation.

Check-in staff are also not wearing masks.
The captain is giving advice on Covid-19 prevention while not wearing his own mask properly to cover his nose.

This is totally unacceptable, as it is in breach of social distancing rules.
We are in a health emergency for god's sake.
The risk of infection is too apparent, ignoring this for financial reasons is in my opinion criminal negligence.

Back in February I warned that airlines might contribute to spreading Covid-19 worldwide by not groundind their fleets.
Eventually, fleets were grounded, but only after airlines became complicit to making Covid-19 a pandemic.

With single digits of the populations infected in Europe, clusters will form and spread the disease to dozens of people on each flight.
Without quick control of this situation, a second much larger wave is inevitable, and will result in a new grounding of all airlines.
Airlines are shooting themselves in the feet for a quick buck.

In this news piece Lufthansa is the airline mentionned.
However, I noticed that low-cost airlines like Ryanair are not different and do not plan on applying social distancing aboard.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
unusualattitude
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:49 pm

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:40 pm

If you wish to have social distancing, stay at home. Airlines cannot operate at a profit with social distancing guidelines. Unless you plan on all airlines being government subsidized in order to maintain these extremely subjective guidelines, it's time to let the businesses operate how they wish. People will vote with their wallets. Either they will stay home and forgo travel, or they will accept a certain level of risk as we all do every time we leave our homes.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7558
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:44 pm

It's not criminal if Lufthansa isn't violating a law. Guidelines and recommendations are not law.
 
Redd
Posts: 1207
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:47 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I am shocked by this piece published by CNN:



Waterbomber2 wrote:
The captain is giving advice on Covid-19 prevention while not wearing his own mask properly to cover his nose.


Waterbomber2 wrote:
This is totally unacceptable, as it is in breach of social distancing rules.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
We are in a health emergency for god's sake.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The risk of infection is too apparent, ignoring this for financial reasons is in my opinion criminal negligence.


Don't leave your home. It's too dangerous. Keep your windows closed too, make sure not to let in any sunlight.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4613
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:49 pm

What an incendiary piece, picking on Lufthansa. Social distancing as we know it in public spaces on the ground is simply not viable on a plane. As always, Michael O'Leary said it the best a while back.:

Either the government pays for the middle seat or we won't fly. We can't make money on 66% LF. Even if you do that the middle seat doesn't deliver any real social distancing, so it is kind of an idiotic idea that doesn't achieve anything anyway.


What is needed is extensive testing and preventive actions on the ground, not flame baiting airlines that are engines of our economy. If you want absolute social distancing and risk free travel, stay at home.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:52 pm

unusualattitude wrote:
If you wish to have social distancing, stay at home. Airlines cannot operate at a profit with social distancing guidelines. Unless you plan on all airlines being government subsidized in order to maintain these extremely subjective guidelines, it's time to let the businesses operate how they wish. People will vote with their wallets. Either they will stay home and forgo travel, or they will accept a certain level of risk as we all do every time we leave our homes.



Lufthansa and other airlines are already subsidised and also ignoring social distancing rules.
Yes, let's spend taxpayer money to treat patients resulting from infections aboard flights so that airlines can become profitable Covid-19 factories.

Your argument is absurd and holds no logic and this mentality will inevitably result in a strong second wave and a new global grounding of airlines.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:56 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
It's not criminal if Lufthansa isn't violating a law. Guidelines and recommendations are not law.


Actually social distancing is law in Germany until June 26th, enforceable by fines.

Social distancing is also a law in many other countries and an arrival or departure in such country should normally abide by the laws of said country.
 
Caymanair
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:53 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:14 pm

Social distancing on an airplane is pointless...
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:16 pm

dcajet wrote:
What an incendiary piece, picking on Lufthansa. Social distancing as we know it in public spaces on the ground is simply not viable on a plane. As always, Michael O'Leary said it the best a while back.:

Either the government pays for the middle seat or we won't fly. We can't make money on 66% LF. Even if you do that the middle seat doesn't deliver any real social distancing, so it is kind of an idiotic idea that doesn't achieve anything anyway.


What is needed is extensive testing and preventive actions on the ground, not flame baiting airlines that are engines of our economy. If you want absolute social distancing and risk free travel, stay at home.



Perhaps we should list all airlines that do not intend to apply social distancing practices aboard. Perhaps it would be even faster to list the airlines that do apply some amount of social distancing aboard.

What the Captain said in the interview is ridiculous.
Yes HEPA filters do filter the air before entering the cabin, but it has already been documented that any individual sitting downstream of a constant air stream from an infected individual, will most likely be infected if both are only wearing paper or cloth masks. Plus, it gets in your hair, in your eyes, on your skin.

As said, this will inevitably contribute to a massive second wave, new airline groundings and more subsidies.

An empty middle seat should be regarded as the strict minimum acceptable social distancing and even that is ridiculous.

With regards to subsidies. Taxpayers are subsidising airlines to survive a grounding; not to pocket the subsidies and still try to make profits by collaterally infecting more people which will cost the taxpayers even more in health insurance and more grounding subsidies.

Subsidies or not, the survival of airlines should not happen at the expense of human lives.

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely avoid air travel for a while, and if I do need to travel, I will be wearing my full face mask.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the known airlines that apply some form of social distancing measures (feel free to add to the list) as of June 15th:

-Alitalia (empty middle seat)
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boston92
Posts: 2606
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:21 pm

Is this post satire?
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:23 pm

Boston92 wrote:
Is this post satire?


It depends. Are half a million dead people and the millions more to come satire to you?

This thread is great in that if considered a sample of the global population, surprisingly many people seem to share Brazil's Bolsonaro's point of view, proving that humanity is not ready (yet) to make necessary sacrifices to stop a massive second wave, despite all the evidence and warnings and hardship caused by a relatively mild first wave..


On a sidenote, we should also not forget that a densily packed aircraft also exponentially increases the exposure and risk for cabin crew.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24406
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:31 pm

A4A airlines today agreed to step up enforcement including placing noncompliant passengers on no-fly list.

https://www.airlines.org/news/major-u-s ... coverings/

It's very much in the interest of airlines that customers feel comfortable and that includes ensuring fellow passengers are in compliance with face mask requirements.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:34 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
What an incendiary piece, picking on Lufthansa. Social distancing as we know it in public spaces on the ground is simply not viable on a plane. As always, Michael O'Leary said it the best a while back.:

Either the government pays for the middle seat or we won't fly. We can't make money on 66% LF. Even if you do that the middle seat doesn't deliver any real social distancing, so it is kind of an idiotic idea that doesn't achieve anything anyway.


What is needed is extensive testing and preventive actions on the ground, not flame baiting airlines that are engines of our economy. If you want absolute social distancing and risk free travel, stay at home.



Perhaps we should list all airlines that do not intend to apply social distancing practices aboard. Perhaps it would be even faster to list the airlines that do apply some amount of social distancing aboard.

What the Captain said in the interview is ridiculous.
Yes HEPA filters do filter the air before entering the cabin, but it has already been documented that any individual sitting downstream of a constant air stream from an infected individual, will most likely be infected if both are only wearing paper or cloth masks. Plus, it gets in your hair, in your eyes, on your skin.

As said, this will inevitably contribute to a massive second wave, new airline groundings and more subsidies.

An empty middle seat should be regarded as the strict minimum acceptable social distancing and even that is ridiculous.

With regards to subsidies. Taxpayers are subsidising airlines to survive a grounding; not to pocket the subsidies and still try to make profits by collaterally infecting more people which will cost the taxpayers even more in health insurance and more grounding subsidies.

Subsidies or not, the survival of airlines should not happen at the expense of human lives.

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely avoid air travel for a while, and if I do need to travel, I will be wearing my full face mask.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the known airlines that apply some form of social distancing measures (feel free to add to the list) as of June 15th:

-Alitalia (empty middle seat)

You want a list of all airlines maintaining the recommended 6ft of social distancing At all times on their airplanes today?
Let’s see:
Air Berlin
Compass
Thomas Cook
Ansett
Canadien
AA MD-80 and 767 (reflecting current flying schedules)
Delta MD-88 and L-1011
BA 767
Might be tough to figure out where to board those planes though (their current parking spots don’t have great jetbridges)

But, for a few months more, every airline with the MAX is doing a great job with social distancing on those birds.
 
Boston92
Posts: 2606
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:37 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Boston92 wrote:
Is this post satire?


It depends. Are half a million dead people and the millions more to come satire to you?

This thread is great in that if considered a sample of the global population, surprisingly many people seem to share Brazil's Bolsonaro's point of view, proving that humanity is not ready (yet) to make necessary sacrifices to stop a massive second wave, despite all the evidence and warnings and hardship caused by a relatively mild first wave..


On a sidenote, we should also not forget that a densily packed aircraft also exponentially increases the exposure and risk for cabin crew.


Thanks for confirming satire.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:44 pm

LAXintl wrote:
A4A airlines today agreed to step up enforcement including placing noncompliant passengers on no-fly list.

https://www.airlines.org/news/major-u-s ... coverings/

It's very much in the interest of airlines that customers feel comfortable and that includes ensuring fellow passengers are in compliance with face mask requirements.


It's a start, but random paper or cloth masks that do not meet any filtration standards, while somewhat effective, will not form a critical barrier to prevent infection for individuals seated 50 cm apart for hours on end. Not even individuals seated apart with an empty seat between them.

Respirators to at least FFP2 standards without valve, worn properly, are required and even that will not prevent infections totally.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:40 am

It is astonishing to see how many people even on this forum favor money over life.
Money over safety.

With governments providing unprecedented relief to households, people being paid to stay home, I can't quite understand what is all the rush about restarting the economy at all costs.

Keeping the economy going at all costs despite the imminent threat is what got us in this mess in the first place.

The airlines should have grounded their fleets back in February.
Their decision to keep flying and contribute to the spread may have saved them a few millions, in the meanwhile economies are losing trillions.

We are apes. Idiotic apes.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:30 am

Here are a few screenshots edited taken from the footage at https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html
Edited for commentary.




Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


What could go wrong?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4115
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:23 am

I might not agree with Waterbomber2 about the severity of the situation, but the inconsistency and hypocricy is apparent to anyone. This is an annoying theatre done for show rather than effect.

It's all-in or nothing with these measures. The virus doesn't discriminate between being in a plane or not.
 
DFW17L
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:53 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:13 pm

Oh, the horror.

This is the reaction from some people when I go to the grocery store sans mask.

Image
 
KFTG
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:23 pm

The entire global economy will be in shambles for decades but at least the OP will "feel safe". Tell you what, you stay home. The rest of the human race will get on with it.
 
User avatar
Moose135
Posts: 3130
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:45 pm

KFTG wrote:
The rest of the human race will get on with it.

Or get sick and perhaps die, but that's a small price to pay, isn't it?
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
KFTG
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:52 pm

Love the hyperbole. But the facts regarding mortality and symptomatic cases do not support your statement.
 
KFTG
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:55 pm

Also love how this was moved to the graveyard forum, where it belongs.
 
Waterbomber2
Topic Author
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Lack of social distancing aboard flights: criminal negligence?

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:10 pm

KFTG wrote:
Also love how this was moved to the graveyard forum, where it belongs.


If you love that, you'll probably also drool over this: https://twitter.com/anylaurie16/status/ ... 6461427712

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