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Boeing757100
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Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:15 pm

Destinations

DL- Johannesburg, Accra, Lagos, Dakar, Cape Town (future) with formerly serving Cairo and thought about Luanda and Nairobi.
UA- Quit Lagos/Accra in 2014, only seasonal Cape Town flight now
AA- Casblanca in 2021.

Why? Don't those two have African Airlines they can codeshare with? For example Ethiopian, EgyptAir, and South African (maybe not SAA, we'll see if they survive.) Most of Africa aviation is anyway run by foreign carriers, and Delta is a part of that. Why don't these two do that?
 
CALMSP
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:19 pm

well, CO/UA would have gone into CAI if the Arab spring didn't go off years ago.

But, the outlook for the next 2-3 years will be nothing outside of what you've listed. And I don't even think AA will get CMN off the ground.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:26 pm

United ended IAH to Lagos in 2016 citing low financial performance.
 
x1234
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:28 pm

Even though African Americans are 12-13% of the US population, the majority are not recent immigrants with links to the continent (slavery). I believe there isn't enough US-Africa traffic to have more than 1 US carrier. The only place in Africa that generates a relative yield premium is South Africa which is covered by Delta (and the majority of Europeans in Africa are in South Africa). I was dreaming of AA maybe starting MIA-JNB/CPT to compete with DL & UA.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:29 pm

DL has also dropped Monrovia and Abuja

Nairobi didn't happened because the U.S. government didn't allow it

Luanda, Sal, and Malabo were also announced but never started. The plan was to fly 757s to Sal and then continue on to Luanda or Malabo on certain days of the week.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:34 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
DL has also dropped Monrovia and Abuja

Nairobi didn't happened because the U.S. government didn't allow it

Luanda, Sal, and Malabo were also announced but never started. The plan was to fly 757s to Sal and then continue on to Luanda or Malabo on certain days of the week.



That's cool. Kinda expect why it didn't make it off the ground.
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:27 pm

DL flies to Nairobi. Why would the government block that when Kenya Airways also flies JFK-NBO?
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
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AAlaxfan
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:30 pm

AA has a good transatlantic partner in BA which covers South Africa and the African continent pretty well. They also have a partnership with RAM. I wouldn't say AA is weak in Africa, they just don't find the need to fly their own metal to Africa.
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Boeing757100
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:12 am

jeffrey1970 wrote:
DL flies to Nairobi. Why would the government block that when Kenya Airways also flies JFK-NBO?


Delta does NOT fly to Nairobi. Kenya Airways terminated JFK-NBO a few years ago.
 
IADCA
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:17 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
Destinations

DL- Johannesburg, Accra, Lagos, Dakar, Cape Town (future) with formerly serving Cairo and thought about Luanda and Nairobi.
UA- Quit Lagos/Accra in 2014, only seasonal Cape Town flight now
AA- Casblanca in 2021.

Why? Don't those two have African Airlines they can codeshare with? For example Ethiopian, EgyptAir, and South African (maybe not SAA, we'll see if they survive.) Most of Africa aviation is anyway run by foreign carriers, and Delta is a part of that. Why don't these two do that?


In UA's case, it's because their African partners fly (or flew, pre-virus) to the US themselves: ET had 5 US destinations, MS and South African two each. Coupled with the connections to Africa offered by those two (plus LH and TK), UA covered the continent that way. And they do codeshare with ET, MS, and SAA, so you sorta answered your own question.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:33 am

The problem AA has is little O&D at their hubs, & Hub scale to make a thin route to Sub-Saharan Africa work. For example the largest markets to Nigeria are ATL, BWI, ORD, DFW, IAH, LAX, JFK, MSY, MCO, & IAD.

PHL & MIA are the logical points for destinations outside of CMN, but neither have strong O&D to Sub-saharan Africa.

IAH has strong O&D, it's just so far west that lots of connections require a backtrack.
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Cubsrule
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:36 am

IADCA wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Destinations

DL- Johannesburg, Accra, Lagos, Dakar, Cape Town (future) with formerly serving Cairo and thought about Luanda and Nairobi.
UA- Quit Lagos/Accra in 2014, only seasonal Cape Town flight now
AA- Casblanca in 2021.

Why? Don't those two have African Airlines they can codeshare with? For example Ethiopian, EgyptAir, and South African (maybe not SAA, we'll see if they survive.) Most of Africa aviation is anyway run by foreign carriers, and Delta is a part of that. Why don't these two do that?


In UA's case, it's because their African partners fly (or flew, pre-virus) to the US themselves: ET had 5 US destinations, MS and South African two each. Coupled with the connections to Africa offered by those two (plus LH and TK), UA covered the continent that way. And they do codeshare with ET, MS, and SAA, so you sorta answered your own question.


I think you may be too quick to discount the effect of European partners both for UA and for other carriers. If there were an ADD or NBO-type hub in, say, Mauritania, that would have a tremendous effect on North America-Africa traffic. There isn’t; the strong African hubs are out of the way for traffic from the US. So European hubs play a significant role. What’s the best hub for ORD-ALG or DEN-CAI? The answer is probably in Europe.
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UA444
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:57 am

UA flew IAD-ACC for a few years.
 
IADCA
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:35 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Destinations

DL- Johannesburg, Accra, Lagos, Dakar, Cape Town (future) with formerly serving Cairo and thought about Luanda and Nairobi.
UA- Quit Lagos/Accra in 2014, only seasonal Cape Town flight now
AA- Casblanca in 2021.

Why? Don't those two have African Airlines they can codeshare with? For example Ethiopian, EgyptAir, and South African (maybe not SAA, we'll see if they survive.) Most of Africa aviation is anyway run by foreign carriers, and Delta is a part of that. Why don't these two do that?


In UA's case, it's because their African partners fly (or flew, pre-virus) to the US themselves: ET had 5 US destinations, MS and South African two each. Coupled with the connections to Africa offered by those two (plus LH and TK), UA covered the continent that way. And they do codeshare with ET, MS, and SAA, so you sorta answered your own question.


I think you may be too quick to discount the effect of European partners both for UA and for other carriers. If there were an ADD or NBO-type hub in, say, Mauritania, that would have a tremendous effect on North America-Africa traffic. There isn’t; the strong African hubs are out of the way for traffic from the US. So European hubs play a significant role. What’s the best hub for ORD-ALG or DEN-CAI? The answer is probably in Europe.


Not discounting the effect at all, just that it's not a huge differentiator among UA, DL, and AA: Each one has an EU JV partner with a significant number of connections to Africa. Those strengths tend to be geographically a bit different from one another based on colonial ties, of course, but IAG, AF/KL, and the LH group absolutely play a large role overall. They're just each aligned to one carrier already.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:28 pm

IADCA wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
IADCA wrote:

In UA's case, it's because their African partners fly (or flew, pre-virus) to the US themselves: ET had 5 US destinations, MS and South African two each. Coupled with the connections to Africa offered by those two (plus LH and TK), UA covered the continent that way. And they do codeshare with ET, MS, and SAA, so you sorta answered your own question.


I think you may be too quick to discount the effect of European partners both for UA and for other carriers. If there were an ADD or NBO-type hub in, say, Mauritania, that would have a tremendous effect on North America-Africa traffic. There isn’t; the strong African hubs are out of the way for traffic from the US. So European hubs play a significant role. What’s the best hub for ORD-ALG or DEN-CAI? The answer is probably in Europe.


Not discounting the effect at all, just that it's not a huge differentiator among UA, DL, and AA: Each one has an EU JV partner with a significant number of connections to Africa. Those strengths tend to be geographically a bit different from one another based on colonial ties, of course, but IAG, AF/KL, and the LH group absolutely play a large role overall. They're just each aligned to one carrier already.


That’s a good point; I hadn’t through about the differentiator angle. But, by virtue of SN’s strength to Africa I think UA may have ready access to more Europe-Africa flights than either AA or DL. Without counting I think AF is the single strongest carrier/hub but KL isn’t as strong as others and both LH and SN fly to 25 or 30 destinations.
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bfitzflyer
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:22 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
DL flies to Nairobi. Why would the government block that when Kenya Airways also flies JFK-NBO?


Delta does NOT fly to Nairobi. Kenya Airways terminated JFK-NBO a few years ago.


Kenya airways was operating jfk-nbo until COVID
 
IADCA
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:52 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I think you may be too quick to discount the effect of European partners both for UA and for other carriers. If there were an ADD or NBO-type hub in, say, Mauritania, that would have a tremendous effect on North America-Africa traffic. There isn’t; the strong African hubs are out of the way for traffic from the US. So European hubs play a significant role. What’s the best hub for ORD-ALG or DEN-CAI? The answer is probably in Europe.


Not discounting the effect at all, just that it's not a huge differentiator among UA, DL, and AA: Each one has an EU JV partner with a significant number of connections to Africa. Those strengths tend to be geographically a bit different from one another based on colonial ties, of course, but IAG, AF/KL, and the LH group absolutely play a large role overall. They're just each aligned to one carrier already.


That’s a good point; I hadn’t through about the differentiator angle. But, by virtue of SN’s strength to Africa I think UA may have ready access to more Europe-Africa flights than either AA or DL. Without counting I think AF is the single strongest carrier/hub but KL isn’t as strong as others and both LH and SN fly to 25 or 30 destinations.


This is getting a bit far afield, but the issue with SN is getting passengers from the US to BRU without too many connections. It's not like LHR or CDG (or FRA, within its own alliance) where you can fly direct to the hub from most major gateways. Think of your hypothetical DEN-CAI: there's no DEN-BRU, but there is a DEN-LHR and DEN-FRA (and even DEN-CDG seasonally, albeit on Norwegian). Suddenly SN's network is behind a double connection. No issue if you're in DC, NYC, or Chicago, but otherwise it's an extra connection.
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:32 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
DL flies to Nairobi. Why would the government block that when Kenya Airways also flies JFK-NBO?


Delta does NOT fly to Nairobi. Kenya Airways terminated JFK-NBO a few years ago.


KQ still flies JFK-NBO, and they will continue operating it post-Covid AFAIK.
Last flown aircraft: A320 D-AIUR < A320 D-AIZM < B738 PH-HZJ < B737 PH-XRD < B772 N766AN < B738 N855NN < B788 N45905 < A319 N808UA < A320 N482UA < B752 N19117 < B772 N794AN < A320 D-AIPS < A319 OE-LDD < A320 D-AIQA
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:33 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
Destinations

DL- Johannesburg, Accra, Lagos, Dakar, Cape Town (future) with formerly serving Cairo and thought about Luanda and Nairobi.
UA- Quit Lagos/Accra in 2014, only seasonal Cape Town flight now
AA- Casblanca in 2021.

Why? Don't those two have African Airlines they can codeshare with? For example Ethiopian, EgyptAir, and South African (maybe not SAA, we'll see if they survive.) Most of Africa aviation is anyway run by foreign carriers, and Delta is a part of that. Why don't these two do that?


UA does codeshare with all of the airlines that you have mentioned, and also with SN (who have a very large African presence) and LH (who have a respectable African presence).
Last flown aircraft: A320 D-AIUR < A320 D-AIZM < B738 PH-HZJ < B737 PH-XRD < B772 N766AN < B738 N855NN < B788 N45905 < A319 N808UA < A320 N482UA < B752 N19117 < B772 N794AN < A320 D-AIPS < A319 OE-LDD < A320 D-AIQA
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why are AA and UA weak in Africa?

Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:00 pm

On top of the Euro carriers, who got a significant presence in Africa, there's also Turkish Airlines and the ME3 (mostly Emirates and Qatar) with a good presence in both Africa and the USA. They also capture some of the demand. Turkish Airlines codeshares with United by the way as they're both in Star Alliance, and I believe there are some codeshares between Qatar and American as well. Emirates has JetBlue as a feeder in the USA.

Specially when you're talking about east Africa, connecting in Turkey or the Middle East isn't that much of a detour.

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