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UA857
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Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:35 am

Did any airlines order the L-300 (C-141), L-500 (C-5) and MD-17 (C-17) before they were cancelled or where they no orders before cancellation?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:51 am

None for any of them. The L-500 never achieved, and could not have achieved, FAA certification. I believe the L-300 did but never bought by any civil operation. The C-17 was never bought unless you consider the Qatari ones as civil. Dubious.

The only US civil airline to operate the L-100 was Delta.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:58 am

Alaska Airlines
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
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Stitch
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:12 am

Per Wikipedia, Flying Tiger Line and Slick Airways placed provisional orders for four L-300 aircraft each, however the orders were never firmed. Lockheed built one L-300 demonstrator, which was donated to NASA and became an airborne infrared observatory.

McD did secure the initial steps towards FAA certification of the MD-17, but it never proceeded past that stage and neither it nor the BC-17 (once McD merged with Boeing) ever proceeded past the brochure stage.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The only US civil airline to operate the L-100 was Delta.

Airlift International
Saturn Airways
Southern Air Transport (yeah, I know, CIA blah blah, but it also flew perfectly legit civil charters)
TIA Trans International



Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:06 am

Well, okay, I should have specified mainline operators, not charter operators some of dubious operations.
 
OB1504
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:27 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, okay, I should have specified mainline operators, not charter operators some of dubious operations.


I would consider Alaska a mainline carrier.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:02 am

OB1504 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, okay, I should have specified mainline operators, not charter operators some of dubious operations.


I would consider Alaska a mainline carrier.


That would he a remarkably generous description of the airline back when it was flying C-130s.
 
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747classic
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:07 am

The civil registered L-300, N4141A, C/N 6110, SYD, August 27th 1966
Image

Original uploaded by David Carter, see : https://www.airhistory.net/photo/755/N4141A

After civil certification was completed, the L-300 was ordered by Slick Airways, but after the absorption of this carrier by Airlift International, the order was cancelled.

Source ; Lockheed Aircraft since 1913, by René J Francillon, ISBN 087021-897-2, page 441
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:15 am

I wonder why the L-300 didn't get civilian orders, and why the L-300 isn't a good fit for commercial cargo operations?
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
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aeromoe
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:17 am

NameOmitted wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, okay, I should have specified mainline operators, not charter operators some of dubious operations.


I would consider Alaska a mainline carrier.


That would he a remarkably generous description of the airline back when it was flying C-130s.


Pedantic, I know, but L-100s are not exactly C-130s. L-100s don't have all the cockpit windows of the C-130. Probably other differences as well I don't know about.

Alaska International Air (later MarkAir) also operated L-100s.
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NameOmitted
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:38 am

aeromoe wrote:
Pedantic, I know, but L-100s are not exactly C-130s. L-100s don't have all the cockpit windows of the C-130. Probably other differences as well I don't know about.


Fair, thank you for the correction.

There's a bit of a strange story about the Alaska L-100s. IIRC Alaska picked up the lease on the aircraft to being drilling rigs to the North Slope, but the land freeze locked down production until the passage of the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. The planes were idle, and the leases were swamping the company. So, Alaska looked worldwide for somewhere to employ them and sent them to South America. Ecuador, I think, I could well be wrong.

This is why I roll my eyes every time someone worries about if Alaska has the braces recognition to operate on the West Coast.
 
aviatorcraig
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:15 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
None for any of them. The L-500 never achieved, and could not have achieved, FAA certification..


It would be interesting to know why the L-500 could not have been FAA certified, even if enough money had been thrown at the problem?
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:40 am

aeromoe wrote:
Pedantic, I know, but L-100s are not exactly C-130s. L-100s don't have all the cockpit windows of the C-130. Probably other differences as well I don't know about.


NameOmitted wrote:
There's a bit of a strange story about the Alaska L-100s. IIRC Alaska picked up the lease on the aircraft to being drilling rigs to the North Slope, but the land freeze locked down production until the passage of the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. The planes were idle, and the leases were swamping the company. So, Alaska looked worldwide for somewhere to employ them and sent them to South America. Ecuador, I think, I could well be wrong.


Alaska were not the only airline from the Far North that sent it's L-100s off to sunny climes to generate revenue.

Check these consecutive entries from wikipedia's list of incidents & accidents...

On July 16, 1969: a Pacific Western Airlines L-100-20 (registration CF-PWO) crashed in Cayaya, Peru, after a wing hit the ground during go-around in fog.
On November 21, 1976: a Pacific Western Airlines L-100-20 (registration CF-PWX) crashed in Eastville, Kisangani, Zaire (today Democratic Republic of the Congo),
Missing from from this list, but featured elsewhere on wikipedia, is mention of a third [ex] Pacific Western a/c, aka "The Gray Ghost", crashing in Angola in 1989. (to be fair, it was also ex Alaska, and gun running for Tepper Aviation / CIA when it crashed in 1989)

Then again, Angola & Peru have somehow accounted for more L-100 losses than the rest of the planet combined. (12 & 4 respectively, possibly more) :white:

Here's CF-PWN in full airline livery at Stansted, long before it adopted a low vis "Gray Ghost" scheme.


CF-PWO in the earlier scheme, at Heathrow earning it's corn on lease to TMA (Lebanon)

Heathrow seemed to be a lot quieter in those days; from the photo it looks like there's a cricket match going on next to runway 28L. Or maybe they are sheep grazing. (with cricket being such a slow game it's hard to tell the difference.)
Oh no, here comes a bouncer... :duck:

(yeah, it's drifting a little off-topic - so bite me!)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:57 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The only US civil airline to operate the L-100 was Delta.

Airlift International
Saturn Airways
Southern Air Transport (yeah, I know, CIA blah blah, but it also flew perfectly legit civil charters)
TIA Trans International





Hi guys, I know that some outfits briefly operated the L-100 for passenger flights too...namely I believe Merpati Nusantara was one in the '70s..
Does anybody know more about L-100 pax ops?
And: anyone has a photo of what a pax cabin would have looked like on a L-100??

many thanks
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:19 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
None for any of them. The L-500 never achieved, and could not have achieved, FAA certification..


It would be interesting to know why the L-500 could not have been FAA certified, even if enough money had been thrown at the problem?


Mainly, performance with the original engines would never meet FAR 25 or CAR 4b standards at any profitable weight. With CF-6s, I would, but that’s 50 years later. Evac from troop would have been impossible to certify, too.
 
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klm617
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:52 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The only US civil airline to operate the L-100 was Delta.

Airlift International
Saturn Airways
Southern Air Transport (yeah, I know, CIA blah blah, but it also flew perfectly legit civil charters)
TIA Trans International






Pacific Western as well.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:05 pm

klm617 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The only US civil airline to operate the L-100 was Delta.

Airlift International
Saturn Airways
Southern Air Transport (yeah, I know, CIA blah blah, but it also flew perfectly legit civil charters)
TIA Trans International


Pacific Western as well.

*cough* Canadian, not US *cough*

(although I have managed to include them in this thread for other reasons; see above) :D
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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aeromoe
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:40 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
None for any of them. The L-500 never achieved, and could not have achieved, FAA certification..


It would be interesting to know why the L-500 could not have been FAA certified, even if enough money had been thrown at the problem?


Mainly, performance with the original engines would never meet FAR 25 or CAR 4b standards at any profitable weight. With CF-6s, I would, but that’s 50 years later. Evac from troop would have been impossible to certify, too.


GalaxyFlyer...what about A380 and 747 upper deck evacuation certification? Like I've said before, I've got 18 C-5B flights under my belt (all on troop deck of course) and while I certainly wouldn't have wanted to emergency evac during ANY flight, MAC / AMC certainly allowed/allows plenty of civilian family members to ride up on the top deck. Why wouldn't evac certification for the L-500 have been possible?
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:34 am

It would have to be improved, the C-5 slides were close to vertical, but you make a good point the 747 was certified not long after.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:38 am

Delta used to operate cargo flights with a small fleet of C-130's back in the 1960's. Qatar Airlines has a "demilitarized" C-17.
 
Newark727
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:39 am

I recall seeing a wooden display model of a Starlifter in Flying Tigers colors at the LAX Flight Path museum. So I guess if it's authentic the order got at least that far? Kind of an interesting "what if?"
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:21 am

oldannyboy wrote:

Hi guys, I know that some outfits briefly operated the L-100 for passenger flights too...namely I believe Merpati Nusantara was one in the '70s..
Does anybody know more about L-100 pax ops?
And: anyone has a photo of what a pax cabin would have looked like on a L-100??


I think Merpati Nusantara was the only passenger operator of the L-100. (Not counting the millions of military passengers who rode in the back of a C130).

I recall seeing a picture of the L-100 passenger cabin in Aviation Week magazine in the 1980s. It looked very similar to the (then) current Boeing “wide body” interiors of its 707s, 727s and 737s. One oddity, was that only about a third of the passengers had a window, the rest were beside a blank wall. The main landing gear fairing covered over where windows would be.

At the time, the L-100 replaced Merpati Nusantara’s passenger Vanguards.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:50 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
Pedantic, I know, but L-100s are not exactly C-130s. L-100s don't have all the cockpit windows of the C-130. Probably other differences as well I don't know about.


NameOmitted wrote:
There's a bit of a strange story about the Alaska L-100s. IIRC Alaska picked up the lease on the aircraft to being drilling rigs to the North Slope, but the land freeze locked down production until the passage of the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. The planes were idle, and the leases were swamping the company. So, Alaska looked worldwide for somewhere to employ them and sent them to South America. Ecuador, I think, I could well be wrong.


Alaska were not the only airline from the Far North that sent it's L-100s off to sunny climes to generate revenue.

Check these consecutive entries from wikipedia's list of incidents & accidents...

On July 16, 1969: a Pacific Western Airlines L-100-20 (registration CF-PWO) crashed in Cayaya, Peru, after a wing hit the ground during go-around in fog.
On November 21, 1976: a Pacific Western Airlines L-100-20 (registration CF-PWX) crashed in Eastville, Kisangani, Zaire (today Democratic Republic of the Congo),
Missing from from this list, but featured elsewhere on wikipedia, is mention of a third [ex] Pacific Western a/c, aka "The Gray Ghost", crashing in Angola in 1989. (to be fair, it was also ex Alaska, and gun running for Tepper Aviation / CIA when it crashed in 1989)

Then again, Angola & Peru have somehow accounted for more L-100 losses than the rest of the planet combined. (12 & 4 respectively, possibly more) :white:

Here's CF-PWN in full airline livery at Stansted, long before it adopted a low vis "Gray Ghost" scheme.


CF-PWO in the earlier scheme, at Heathrow earning it's corn on lease to TMA (Lebanon)

Heathrow seemed to be a lot quieter in those days; from the photo it looks like there's a cricket match going on next to runway 28L. Or maybe they are sheep grazing. (with cricket being such a slow game it's hard to tell the difference.)
Oh no, here comes a bouncer... :duck:

(yeah, it's drifting a little off-topic - so bite me!)


PW/Pacific Western no longer existed by 1989. PW, CP, ND & EPA were all merged into the new CP/Canadi>n in 1987. CP never had L-100 Hercs. NWT Air and later First Air later operated civilian Hercs in Canada.

As for American carriers, I don’t see Lynden Air Cargo mentioned. Pretty sure they’re the world’s largest past or present L-100 civilian Herc operator.
 
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N328KF
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:19 am

747classic wrote:
The civil registered L-300, N4141A, C/N 6110, SYD, August 27th 1966
Image

Original uploaded by David Carter, see : https://www.airhistory.net/photo/755/N4141A

After civil certification was completed, the L-300 was ordered by Slick Airways, but after the absorption of this carrier by Airlift International, the order was cancelled.

Source ; Lockheed Aircraft since 1913, by René J Francillon, ISBN 087021-897-2, page 441


The pictured unit became an airborne telescope, the predecessor to SOFIA.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:09 am

Newark727 wrote:
I recall seeing a wooden display model of a Starlifter in Flying Tigers colors at the LAX Flight Path museum.

I'll see your Starlifter, and raise you a L-500 Galaxy. :D

During its heyday in 1969, Universal Airlines looked into the plausibility of obtaining the Lockheed L-500 (Civilian C-5) to carry passengers and their vehicles from coast to coast. An actual display model of that concept was displayed in the hangar two lobby. The airline went bankrupt in May 1972 and its assets were received by Saturn Airways.

For those saying "who?", here's a sample of their eclectic fleet.


As usual, thx to wikipedia
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:01 am

Dominion301 wrote:
As for American carriers, I don’t see Lynden Air Cargo mentioned. Pretty sure they’re the world’s largest past or present L-100 civilian Herc operator.

Wikipedia says "eight" for Lynden. I think I can beat that. :box:

Somewhere, quite recently, I am sure I read that Saturn Airways had 19! (N-n-n-nineteen as Paul Hardcastle would say) ;)
Finding photographic evidence of all 19 is proving difficult; the a.net database only has three of them in Saturn scheme (N10ST, N12ST and N17ST)


TransAmerica are listed as owning 16, made up I guess from those inherited from Saturn,

Here are Transamerica ex Saturn N11ST, the slightly crumpled pieces of N21ST being loaded into a Guppy after a "disappointing" landing, and the somewhat out-of-sequence N39ST at EMA on the RB.211 shuttle


But whilst we're here, this is how you land a real airliner.... :bigthumbsup:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:06 am

OB1504 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, okay, I should have specified mainline operators, not charter operators some of dubious operations.


I would consider Alaska a mainline carrier.


More a regional player, WA, OR and AK
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:16 pm

In the 1960s, Lockheed, General Motors, and American Airlines studied using L-500s to fly Cadillacs from Detroit (where Cadillac's sole assembly plant was located) to Los Angeles and San Francisco.

In the 1960s, automobiles were shipped via rail on open rack carriers, which subjected them to damage and vandalism. Shipping Cadillacs via air would have protected them from damage, and also gotten them to dealers much more quickly.

The plan never came to fruition because there wasn't enough air freight going from California to Detroit to fill an L-500's return flight.The advent of enclosed auto racks in the 1970s, which made car shipments via rail safer, and the run up of jet fuel prices in the 1970s, would also have doomed this operation.

It would have been nice to see an L-500 in AA's polished livery, though!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:18 pm

Rough estimate-about 800 IS gallons per Cadillac—not cheap.

Current AMC rate is about $20,000 per hour, four hours devised by 14 cars equals $5,700 per
 
UA857
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:10 am

Newark727 wrote:
I recall seeing a wooden display model of a Starlifter in Flying Tigers colors at the LAX Flight Path museum. So I guess if it's authentic the order got at least that far? Kind of an interesting "what if?"

You mean this?

Image
 
UA857
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:19 pm

Can an airline like Atlas take a C-141 or C-5 out of storage at DMA and use it for air cargo operations?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:19 pm

UA857 wrote:
Can an airline like Atlas take a C-141 or C-5 out of storage at DMA and use it for air cargo operations?


No, because the frames are not certified for commercial operations. And since someone will ask, the cost of making them certified for commercial operations would be too prohibitive. And I am not sure the DoD would even allow such a deal, nor the DoT, for that matter.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:04 pm

I think the 141s are broken up. The C-5s have been cann’d for parts. I delivered an “A” model with a pretty clean 781. A month later our maintenance team received parts off it.
 
N965UW
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:41 am

UA857 wrote:
Can an airline like Atlas take a C-141 or C-5 out of storage at DMA and use it for air cargo operations?


Atlas would buy up every 747 currently sitting in the desert before even thinking about doing that. Atlas employs a lot of veterans, some of whom may have flown the C-141 and C-5, but getting type rated pilots and keeping them current would not be easy. Then what happens if one of these frames goes AOG in some far-flung commercial airport? Unless the military comes to the rescue with parts and mechanics, that aircraft will be stuck. Might have a bit more luck with a C-5M since it uses the CF6-80 common to the 747 and 767, but it's probably safe to call this a fantasy.
Flown on: A332 C172 C182 C82R CRJ7 E190 PA38 P28A
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:21 am

It’s not “if” but “.when” one of those frames goes AOG. The -141s were wrecks on there last years, the C-5As have now sat in the desert for 5 years, they’re not coming back even if the USAF wanted to convert them to Ms, assuming Lockheed could even do it. They’re dead ducks.
 
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747classic
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Re: Where there any orders for the L-300/500 and MD-17?

Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:11 am

The only 3 USAF (large ) transport aircraft that are (were) civil (FAA) certified are :

C-130B, model 282, surrended , see : https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... _Rev_0.pdf
C-130E, model 382, still valid, several variants, see : https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... E/a2so.pdf
C-141A, still valid, but only for the C-141A, not the -B or -C), see : https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... E/a2so.pdf
767-2C (KC-46A), see : https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... Rev_37.pdf

KC-46A airplanes are tanker/cargo versions of the Model 767-2C. Prior to operation as a commercial aircraft, the following
must be accomplished:
a) The maintenance, overhaul and modification records of each aircraft must be reviewed for changes made by the
military services that may affect the airworthiness of the aircraft. Modifications, changes of equipment and repairs,
which affect the safety or performance of the aircraft, must be approved by the FAA
b) All aircraft returned to civil operations must comply with all applicable Airworthiness Directives
c) All items that are not FAA approved must be removed from the aircraft if they affect the safety or performance of the
aircraft.
d) Each deviation from the FAA approved type design as listed on FAA Form 8130-31 “Conformity Certificate – Military
Aircraft” that is required for civil certification must be corrected per FAA approved data.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.

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