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Delta777Jet
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Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:40 am

I always wondered why TWA never ordered the L-1011-500.
At the end of the 70’s they only had 707 and 747 in fleet . The 747 was way to big for Athens and Rome in the winter and could have been flown by the L15. Any ideas ?
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:00 am

Delta777Jet wrote:
I always wondered why TWA never ordered the L-1011-500.
At the end of the 70’s they only had 707 and 747 in fleet . The 747 was way to big for Athens and Rome in the winter and could have been flown by the L15. Any ideas ?


You are missing something here. TWA, at the end of the '70s, had a large fleet of L1011s, including several -100s. Weren't the ATH and FCO routes flown with a stop at CDG or LHR? In which case the L10s they had could do the job.

http://www.aeromoe.com/fleets/tw.html
 
TUGMASTER
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:03 am

Don’t remember the L1011’s carrying on from LHR... but by the mid 80’s, they had 727’s to do the job as tag ins into Europe.Believe ATH was a regular 747 destination anyway.
Memory a bit foggy with old age.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:14 am

There was an interesting piece on this last year, it all came down to money.

viewtopic.php?t=1425441
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:31 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
Don’t remember the L1011’s carrying on from LHR... but by the mid 80’s, they had 727’s to do the job as tag ins into Europe.Believe ATH was a regular 747 destination anyway.
Memory a bit foggy with old age.

At the time, a lot was questioned about TW800 having arrived at JFK non-stop from Athens on it's previous flight. Just saying ATH was definitely a 747 non-stop destination as late as '96.

I've got hazy visions of a TWA L10 having been Hijacked somewhere in the Middle East (Beirut?) early 80s on the news. So they went further.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:04 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
I always wondered why TWA never ordered the L-1011-500.
At the end of the 70’s they only had 707 and 747 in fleet . The 747 was way to big for Athens and Rome in the winter and could have been flown by the L15. Any ideas ?


You are missing something here. TWA, at the end of the '70s, had a large fleet of L1011s, including several -100s. Weren't the ATH and FCO routes flown with a stop at CDG or LHR? In which case the L10s they had could do the job.

http://www.aeromoe.com/fleets/tw.html


I couldn't tell you where else TWA L-1011s flew, or what model, but 1983 had an L-1011 on BOS-ORY (CDG?)
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:46 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
I always wondered why TWA never ordered the L-1011-500.
At the end of the 70’s they only had 707 and 747 in fleet . The 747 was way to big for Athens and Rome in the winter and could have been flown by the L15. Any ideas ?


You are missing something here. TWA, at the end of the '70s, had a large fleet of L1011s, including several -100s. Weren't the ATH and FCO routes flown with a stop at CDG or LHR? In which case the L10s they had could do the job.

http://www.aeromoe.com/fleets/tw.html


ATH and FCO were served nonstop from JFK, using the 741/742 (there was also a JFK-FCO-ATH-CAI service, and reverse) with the FCO-ATH-CAI-ATH-FCO segments flown with the 727. The L1011 was not flown to ATH and ATH and FCO weren't regularly serviced via CDG or LHR on TWA by the 1980s.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:48 am

Bhoy wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Don’t remember the L1011’s carrying on from LHR... but by the mid 80’s, they had 727’s to do the job as tag ins into Europe.Believe ATH was a regular 747 destination anyway.
Memory a bit foggy with old age.

At the time, a lot was questioned about TW800 having arrived at JFK non-stop from Athens on it's previous flight. Just saying ATH was definitely a 747 non-stop destination as late as '96.

I've got hazy visions of a TWA L10 having been Hijacked somewhere in the Middle East (Beirut?) early 80s on the news. So they went further.


TWA Flight 847 was hijacked in June 1985, operating CAI-ATH-FCO. The flight was seized en-route from ATH to FCO and was operated with a 727-200 not an L1011. The hostages taken into Beirut and released in early July were flown back to Andrews AFB from Frankfurt on a TWA L1011 and met at AFB by then President Reagan. TWA didn't fly L1011s into the Middle East, except for TLV-CDG which was flown with the L1011 and later, 767-200ER.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:52 am

Broadly, TWA's TATL routes on the L1011 were: JFK to AMS/BRU, CDG to GVA, CDG to ZRH, JFK-ZRH, BOS-LHR, BOS-CDG, STL-LGW, STL-CDG, BWI-LGW, PHL-LHR, and sometimes flew TWA's Scandinavian destinations (FBU, ARN, CPH) but those were mainly operated on 762s. The L1011 flew between CDG and TLV (also flown with a 762), and one JFK-LHR service operated in partnership with GulfAir, which I think supplied the plane, crewed by TWA. There was a very short lived JFK-LGW service, flown with an L1011 and an even shorter lived JFK-CDG daylight flight that also flew out on the L1011. MUC was served with an L1011 but not nonstop. It went via BRU.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:54 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
I always wondered why TWA never ordered the L-1011-500.
At the end of the 70’s they only had 707 and 747 in fleet . The 747 was way to big for Athens and Rome in the winter and could have been flown by the L15. Any ideas ?


You are missing something here. TWA, at the end of the '70s, had a large fleet of L1011s, including several -100s. Weren't the ATH and FCO routes flown with a stop at CDG or LHR? In which case the L10s they had could do the job.

http://www.aeromoe.com/fleets/tw.html


I couldn't tell you where else TWA L-1011s flew, or what model, but 1983 had an L-1011 on BOS-ORY (CDG?)


Was CDG, not ORY. TWA moved to CDG shortly after it opened and CDG was TWA's second largest station in Europe after LHR.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:55 am

Bhoy wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Don’t remember the L1011’s carrying on from LHR... but by the mid 80’s, they had 727’s to do the job as tag ins into Europe.Believe ATH was a regular 747 destination anyway.
Memory a bit foggy with old age.

At the time, a lot was questioned about TW800 having arrived at JFK non-stop from Athens on it's previous flight. Just saying ATH was definitely a 747 non-stop destination as late as '96.

I've got hazy visions of a TWA L10 having been Hijacked somewhere in the Middle East (Beirut?) early 80s on the news. So they went further.


Yes, the ill-fated TWA 747 that operated TWA 800 (JFK-CDG-FCO) on July 17th 1996 arrived earlier in the afternoon at JFK as TWA 881 from ATH. The JFK-FCO flight that evening cancelled and a sector was added onto flight 800, which was at 60% or so capacity, and the plane was scheduled to then fly CDG-FCO and back to JFK.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:56 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
I always wondered why TWA never ordered the L-1011-500.
At the end of the 70’s they only had 707 and 747 in fleet . The 747 was way to big for Athens and Rome in the winter and could have been flown by the L15. Any ideas ?


You are missing something here. TWA, at the end of the '70s, had a large fleet of L1011s, including several -100s. Weren't the ATH and FCO routes flown with a stop at CDG or LHR? In which case the L10s they had could do the job.

http://www.aeromoe.com/fleets/tw.html


TWA operated a total of around 35 L1011s in its lifetime. One was involved in an accident at JFK in August 1992, operating TWA 843 to SFO. Fortunately, no lives lost. The takeoff was aborted and the plane burst into flames on the runway. Flight 843 originated in MXP as a 747 service to JFK. The JFK-SFO leg was on the L1011.
 
boston5555
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Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:25 pm

I flew ATH-JFK on a 747 in the summer of 90. We were told prior to departure that a fuel stop may be needed. As it turns out, we didn’t have to stop, but it was a lengthy n/s flight in the day.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:38 pm

How the hell has this thread ended up in the backwater of “ Travel,Polls and preferences”.?
Mods,... please restore to civil aviation.
And stop screwing around with a.net threads as you see fit.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:03 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
There was an interesting piece on this last year, it all came down to money.

viewtopic.php?t=1425441


Oh yes, I had forgotten about that one.

Cointrin330 wrote:
TWA operated a total of around 35 L1011s in its lifetime. One was involved in an accident at JFK in August 1992, operating TWA 843 to SFO. Fortunately, no lives lost. The takeoff was aborted and the plane burst into flames on the runway. Flight 843 originated in MXP as a 747 service to JFK. The JFK-SFO leg was on the L1011.


Indeed, and another was w/o in 1974 following a fire, if I remember correctly.
 
Cointrin330
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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:46 pm

boston5555 wrote:
I flew ATH-JFK on a 747 in the summer of 90. We were told prior to departure that a fuel stop may be needed. As it turns out, we didn’t have to stop, but it was a lengthy n/s flight in the day.


The 741s struggled with TLV-JFK and ATH-JFK, TWA's longest 747 sectors, as did LHR-LAX. Fuel stops in winter weren't uncommon. The 742 was ordered to remediate the problem.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3330
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Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:32 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
How the hell has this thread ended up in the backwater of “ Travel,Polls and preferences”.?
Mods,... please restore to civil aviation.


And yet the CX DC10 thread is over in CA.....Makes my head hurt trying to figure it all out.

Anyways, as mentioned, TW did have other wide bodies, did they still have the SP's going into the 80's?
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:50 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
How the hell has this thread ended up in the backwater of “ Travel,Polls and preferences”.?
Mods,... please restore to civil aviation.


And yet the CX DC10 thread is over in CA.....Makes my head hurt trying to figure it all out.

Anyways, as mentioned, TW did have other wide bodies, did they still have the SP's going into the 80's?


TWA's wide body fleet consisted of the 747-100, 747-200, 747-SP, L1011, 767-200ER, 767-300ER. There were 2 SP's in the fleet from 1980 to 1985. Those two SP's ended up with AA starting in 1986, to operate DFW-NRT, which required 2 planes. Eventually, AA deployed them on the JFK-LHR run in 1991, and for a brief time, one operated JFK-BRU before they were retired. TWA had a third SP on order, it was never delivered.
 
Max Q
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Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:58 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
boston5555 wrote:
I flew ATH-JFK on a 747 in the summer of 90. We were told prior to departure that a fuel stop may be needed. As it turns out, we didn’t have to stop, but it was a lengthy n/s flight in the day.


The 741s struggled with TLV-JFK and ATH-JFK, TWA's longest 747 sectors, as did LHR-LAX. Fuel stops in winter weren't uncommon. The 742 was ordered to remediate the problem.



Were any 742 aircraft ordered new directly from Boeing?


I thought all of TWA’s - 200 series were acquired used from other carriers
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:23 pm

Max Q wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
boston5555 wrote:
I flew ATH-JFK on a 747 in the summer of 90. We were told prior to departure that a fuel stop may be needed. As it turns out, we didn’t have to stop, but it was a lengthy n/s flight in the day.


The 741s struggled with TLV-JFK and ATH-JFK, TWA's longest 747 sectors, as did LHR-LAX. Fuel stops in winter weren't uncommon. The 742 was ordered to remediate the problem.



Were any 742 aircraft ordered new directly from Boeing?


I thought all of TWA’s - 200 series were acquired used from other carriers


I believe the 7 or 8 747-200s TWA acquired over its lifetime were all second hand aircraft, acquired from SR, AZ, and others.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Why did’t TWA order the L-1011-500?

Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:34 pm

Max Q wrote:
Were any 742 aircraft ordered new directly from Boeing?


I thought all of TWA’s - 200 series were acquired used from other carriers


No -200s were ever received new for TW. During the mid-80s they acquired two TP, two SR and one OA. Only ten years later did they add two more 1971-manufactured -200s.

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