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x1234
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Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:12 pm

Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX? Is it due to the USA not allowing international to international transits or what? Or can you do a International to International transit in Canada without entering the country (I remember this was possible years back)? Or is it that Canada is more suitable for the French because all the signs are in French (In addition to English) due to Canada's bi-lingual labeling law?
 
drdisque
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:16 pm

It's because of the ban on EU nationals without US residency entering the US during the pandemic. For awhile they were stopping in FDF but YVR is more on the way and has cheaper fuel than FDF. Canada is allowing transit for EU nationals.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:17 pm

Due to U.S. entry restrictions result of COVID. TN also operated via YVR. Additionally, some flights have routed ia PTP - Pointe-a-Pitre Guadeloupe

Both airlines certainly losing money with YVR stop due missed demand to/from LAX which is a top demand market from French Polynesia.
 
x1234
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:39 pm

Interesting. Yeah my tech friend told me French Polynesia/New Caledonia in the Pacific are now on fiber backhaul for the internet allowing remote working (like SE Asia but with a French flair and more expensive).
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:47 pm

I think French Bee is also flying through YVR on the way to French Polynesia (even though they typically fly through SFO).
 
andrew1996
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:54 pm

is Air France carrying any passengers between just CDG and YVR for this sector? The flight seems to part at a jetway at YVR instead of a remote gate if it is just for refuelling. Does air cargo get loaded off or on YVR?
 
9252fly
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:56 pm

I had a look at the some of the flight duration times and it appears that YVR is almost exactly half way between PPT and CDG/ORY. It will be interesting to see if any of the three airlines decides to keep YVR as a tech-stop. AF has been operating CDG - YVR for a few years already, so it might work for them to combine the schedule.
 
geardown
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:05 pm

They cannot sell seats between PPT-YVR-PPT and CDG-YVR-CDG.
 
ATLgaUSA
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:13 pm

geardown wrote:
They cannot sell seats between PPT-YVR-PPT and CDG-YVR-CDG.


Why? Each endpoint is in France.
 
andrew1996
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:21 pm

geardown wrote:
They cannot sell seats between PPT-YVR-PPT and CDG-YVR-CDG.


I see. How about cargo? Is that playing some influence in why they are choosing YVR? If it is just solely for refuelling I imagine there are even cheaper airports to land into like YYC, which likely has cheaper jet fuel too etc.
 
9252fly
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:26 pm

ATLgaUSA wrote:
geardown wrote:
They cannot sell seats between PPT-YVR-PPT and CDG-YVR-CDG.


Why? Each endpoint is in France.


Technically, I think you're correct.
 
geardown
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:27 pm

ATLgaUSA wrote:
geardown wrote:
They cannot sell seats between PPT-YVR-PPT and CDG-YVR-CDG.


Why? Each endpoint is in France.


Vancouver is only a pit stop to get more gas/food. The flight is technically PPT - CDG - PPT.
Air Tahiti Nui (and I'm guessing AF and French Bee) has no 5th freedom agreement between Canada and Tahiti so they cannot sell seats between YVR and PPT. I am also guessing this is the same between YVR and CDG.
 
9252fly
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:39 pm

geardown wrote:
ATLgaUSA wrote:
geardown wrote:
They cannot sell seats between PPT-YVR-PPT and CDG-YVR-CDG.


Why? Each endpoint is in France.


Vancouver is only a pit stop to get more gas/food. The flight is technically PPT - CDG - PPT.
Air Tahiti Nui (and I'm guessing AF and French Bee) has no 5th freedom agreement between Canada and Tahiti so they cannot sell seats between YVR and PPT. I am also guessing this is the same between YVR and CDG.


My understanding is that 5th freedom refers to a third country. Using the topic as an example, CDG - YVR - LAX would be considered 5th freedom. Tahiti is for all intents and purposes French territory.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:29 pm

geardown wrote:
They cannot sell seats between PPT-YVR-PPT and CDG-YVR-CDG.


They can. They choose not to.

AF, TN and French bee have the rights to carry passengers to/from YVR. They are simply choosing not to.

Passengers disembark YVR and wait in a sterile holding area before embarking the plane again.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:35 pm

9252fly wrote:
geardown wrote:
ATLgaUSA wrote:

Why? Each endpoint is in France.


Vancouver is only a pit stop to get more gas/food. The flight is technically PPT - CDG - PPT.
Air Tahiti Nui (and I'm guessing AF and French Bee) has no 5th freedom agreement between Canada and Tahiti so they cannot sell seats between YVR and PPT. I am also guessing this is the same between YVR and CDG.


My understanding is that 5th freedom refers to a third country. Using the topic as an example, CDG - YVR - LAX would be considered 5th freedom. Tahiti is for all intents and purposes French territory.


Do Canada and the EU have Open Skies?
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:46 pm

Cubsrule wrote:

Do Canada and the EU have Open Skies?


Yes, but for some reason, Canada - Tahiti rights are still covered by the old 1970s agreement between Canada and France.

Regardless, as I said, all three airlines have the rights, be choose not to exercise them.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:49 pm

Videos of the transit ops at YVR for Air France.

AF CDG-YVR-PPT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9ID0mouy2g

AF PPT-YVR-CDG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWFqga2 ... e=emb_logo
 
dcajet
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Do Canada and the EU have Open Skies?


Yes, but for some reason, Canada - Tahiti rights are still covered by the old 1970s agreement between Canada and France.

Regardless, as I said, all three airlines have the rights, be choose not to exercise them.


Because Tahiti, and other DOM-TOM (Départements d'outre-mer, Territoires d'outre-mer) while part of France, are not technically part of the European Union. Hence why the France - Canada bilateral applies.
 
Thibault973
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:35 pm

dcajet wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Do Canada and the EU have Open Skies?


Yes, but for some reason, Canada - Tahiti rights are still covered by the old 1970s agreement between Canada and France.

Regardless, as I said, all three airlines have the rights, be choose not to exercise them.


Because Tahiti, and other DOM-TOM (Départements d'outre-mer, Territoires d'outre-mer) while part of France, are not technically part of the European Union. Hence why the France - Canada bilateral applies.


Départements d'outre-mer are very much part of the EU. We are PTOMs (pays et territoires d'Outre-mer de l'Union Européenne, like Madeira, Azores and the Canary Islands). We are just not part of Schengen.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:22 am

Thibault973 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:

Yes, but for some reason, Canada - Tahiti rights are still covered by the old 1970s agreement between Canada and France.

Regardless, as I said, all three airlines have the rights, be choose not to exercise them.


Because Tahiti, and other DOM-TOM (Départements d'outre-mer, Territoires d'outre-mer) while part of France, are not technically part of the European Union. Hence why the France - Canada bilateral applies.


Départements d'outre-mer are very much part of the EU. We are PTOMs (pays et territoires d'Outre-mer de l'Union Européenne, like Madeira, Azores and the Canary Islands). We are just not part of Schengen.


Regardless, the EU-Canada bilateral should govern traffic rights on YVR-CDG, no?
 
drdisque
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:15 am

One clarification, Air Tahiti Nui, in addition to the CDG-(YVR)-PPT flight is still flying a PPT-LAX-PPT standalone flight to bring American tourists to French Polynesia (which is open to tourism by Americans with a recent covid test).

Since the majority of pax who flew French Bee and AF were originating in France, that's why they've instead elected to make the tech stop in Canada. They could fly PPT-USA if they wished but couldn't carry any passengers from the EU.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:55 am

geardown wrote:
Air Tahiti Nui (and I'm guessing AF and French Bee) has no 5th freedom agreement between Canada and Tahiti so they cannot sell seats between YVR and PPT. I am also guessing this is the same between YVR and CDG.


It would be the 3rd freedom in this case.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:33 pm

ATLgaUSA wrote:
Why? Each endpoint is in France.


Technically not.

French Polynesia is considered an independent country in this case. The difference is between French overseas collectivities (such as French Polynesia) and overseas departments (such as French Guyana). Overseas departments are considered to be part of France, overseas collectivities aren't.

But I can very well imagine Vancouver is more convenient for the passengers than Los Angeles. I've been to Los Angeles myself, it took me about 2 hours to clear immigration. That's fine if you're actually entering the USA like I did, but if you're not then clearing immigration is pointless. Luckily the Canadian law is more lax about that, passengers don't have to clear immigration in Vancouver if they continue on the same flight. In the USA they do. I guess that's worth the detour.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:21 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:

Yes, but for some reason, Canada - Tahiti rights are still covered by the old 1970s agreement between Canada and France.

Regardless, as I said, all three airlines have the rights, be choose not to exercise them.


Because Tahiti, and other DOM-TOM (Départements d'outre-mer, Territoires d'outre-mer) while part of France, are not technically part of the European Union. Hence why the France - Canada bilateral applies.


Départements d'outre-mer are very much part of the EU. We are PTOMs (pays et territoires d'Outre-mer de l'Union Européenne, like Madeira, Azores and the Canary Islands). We are just not part of Schengen.

Madeira, Azores, and the Canary Islands are what are called in English, "Outermost Regions", these territories are part of the EU, however; Tahiti, is part of French Polynesia, which is not an Outermost Territory. French Polynesia is one of the, "Overseas Countries and Territories", which are EU nation dependents, but not part of the EU. Other examples of Overseas Countries and Territories are Greenland, and Aruba.

I'll leave it to others to explain what this means for commercial passenger aviation.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:50 pm

French airlines flying between France and PPT could well route via airports on French overseas departments: FDF/PTP/CAY but the detour might not make the service as cost-effective as via YVR/SFO/LAX.

ORY PPT 314° (NW) 313° (NW) 9,773 mi
2 segment path:
ORY CAY 245° (SW) 244° (SW) 4,401 mi
CAY PPT 253° (W) 271° (W) 6,801 mi
11,202 mi (+14.6%)
2 segment path:
ORY FDF 260° (W) 258° (W) 4,259 mi
FDF PPT 253° (W) 268° (W) 6,434 mi
10,693 mi (+9.4%)
2 segment path:
ORY PTP 261° (W) 260° (W) 4,199 mi
PTP PPT 253° (W) 268° (W) 6,434 mi
10,633 mi (+8.8%)

B.T.W. tech-stops in either YYC or YWG would make the distance flown lower than vie YVR:

ORY PPT 314° (NW) 313° (NW) 9,773 mi
2 segment path:
ORY YVR 326° (NW) 325° (NW) 4,951 mi
YVR PPT 207° (SW) 191° (S) 4,872 mi
9,824 mi (+0.5%)
2 segment path:
ORY YYC 322° (NW) 321° (NW) 4,599 mi
YYC PPT 215° (SW) 201° (S) 5,196 mi
9,795 mi (+0.2%)
2 segment path:
ORY YWG 313° (NW) 311° (NW) 4,140 mi
YWG PPT 230° (SW) 227° (SW) 5,634 mi
9,774 mi (+0.0%)
2 segment path:
ORY LAX 314° (NW) 313° (NW) 5,678 mi
LAX PPT 215° (SW) 203° (SW) 4,095 mi
9,773 mi (+0.0%)

( data from www.gcmap.com )
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:25 pm

Do they sell CDG-YVR in that case as it is part of the biliteral?
 
drdisque
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:44 pm

I'm guessing they feel that it's worth the extra 50 miles to land at an airport with a large transit area that regularly sees long haul widebodies.
 
ytib
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:01 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
B.T.W. tech-stops in either YYC or YWG would make the distance flown lower than vie YVR:


With a YVR stop (which is not that much further) you eliminate having to transit US airspace as well and overflight fees. With YYC and YWG with a great circle route you would cross US airspace.
 
A388
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:05 pm

So the tech stop in PTP was stopped because the routing via YVR is shorter (meaning less fuel consumption)?

A388
 
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Polot
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:23 pm

ytib wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
B.T.W. tech-stops in either YYC or YWG would make the distance flown lower than vie YVR:


With a YVR stop (which is not that much further) you eliminate having to transit US airspace as well and overflight fees. With YYC and YWG with a great circle route you would cross US airspace.

The PPT-YVR flights still often go through US airspace, and that’s ignoring the US controlled airspace they all have to fly through in the Pacific.

AF has service at YVR already, which means they already have contracts in place for fuel, handling aircraft, etc. If they can carry local traffic YVR is also a larger market.
 
ytib
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:39 pm

Polot wrote:
ytib wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
B.T.W. tech-stops in either YYC or YWG would make the distance flown lower than vie YVR:


With a YVR stop (which is not that much further) you eliminate having to transit US airspace as well and overflight fees. With YYC and YWG with a great circle route you would cross US airspace.

The PPT-YVR flights still often go through US airspace, and that’s ignoring the US controlled airspace they all have to fly through in the Pacific.

AF has service at YVR already, which means they already have contracts in place for fuel, handling aircraft, etc. If they can carry local traffic YVR is also a larger market.


It would also be a lesser amount of time in the En-Route airspace. The cost between Oceanic and En-Route is significant.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/interna ... ight_fees/
 
airbazar
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:45 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Due to U.S. entry restrictions result of COVID. TN also operated via YVR. Additionally, some flights have routed ia PTP - Pointe-a-Pitre Guadeloupe

Both airlines certainly losing money with YVR stop due missed demand to/from LAX which is a top demand market from French Polynesia.


Every airline is losing money right now. Having a tech stop in a difference city is the least of the problems.
Having said that I'm not sure that these flights carry a whole lot of U.S. O&D passengers. For U.S. O&D passengers Air Tahiti Nui has a second flight that continues to AKL and Air France has a second flight to CDG (or they did pre-pandemic). The fact that they continue to operate the CDG-PPT is evidence that demand to/from France alone is enough to operate this flight even in a Pandemic.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:45 pm

ytib wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
B.T.W. tech-stops in either YYC or YWG would make the distance flown lower than vie YVR:


With a YVR stop (which is not that much further) you eliminate having to transit US airspace as well and overflight fees. With YYC and YWG with a great circle route you would cross US airspace.
True, from YVR towards PPT, there's not even the need to fly over SEA (Washington State), plane heads to Victoria Island and then south to Tahiti.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:51 pm

ATLgaUSA wrote:
geardown wrote:
They cannot sell seats between PPT-YVR-PPT and CDG-YVR-CDG.


Why? Each endpoint is in France.

Because Canada does not allow French nationals to come in the country, unless:
Travellers coming from outside the US who are exempt from the travel restrictions
[...]
- transiting passengers (must remain in the secure transit area of a Canadian airport to complete their connection)
[...]
- French citizens who live in Saint-Pierre and Miquelon and have been in only Canada, the US or Saint-Pierre and Miquelon during the 14 days before the day they seek to enter Canada

Source

So, coming from PPT or CDG, you cannot disembark in Canada.
 
makaturing
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:06 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
there's not even the need to fly over SEA (Washington State), plane heads to Victoria Island and then south to Tahiti.

Victoria Island is in the Arctic. That would be a very inconvenient route to Tahiti. :biggrin:
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:26 pm

makaturing wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
there's not even the need to fly over SEA (Washington State), plane heads to Victoria Island and then south to Tahiti.

Victoria Island is in the Arctic. That would be a very inconvenient route to Tahiti. :biggrin:
My mistake, Victoria, the town on Vancouver Island.
 
blandy62
Posts: 436
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Re: Why is Air France's PPT flight routed via YVR instead of LAX?

Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:28 am

Aliqiout wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Because Tahiti, and other DOM-TOM (Départements d'outre-mer, Territoires d'outre-mer) while part of France, are not technically part of the European Union. Hence why the France - Canada bilateral applies.


Départements d'outre-mer are very much part of the EU. We are PTOMs (pays et territoires d'Outre-mer de l'Union Européenne, like Madeira, Azores and the Canary Islands). We are just not part of Schengen.

Madeira, Azores, and the Canary Islands are what are called in English, "Outermost Regions", these territories are part of the EU, however; Tahiti, is part of French Polynesia, which is not an Outermost Territory. French Polynesia is one of the, "Overseas Countries and Territories", which are EU nation dependents, but not part of the EU. Other examples of Overseas Countries and Territories are Greenland, and Aruba.

I'll leave it to others to explain what this means for commercial passenger aviation.


You are right. This is summarised here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_m ... pean_Union

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