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Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:39 pm

trex8 wrote:
I flew LGW-ORD or STL several times in the early ,mid 80s. Pretty sure it was a 747 every time.


In the early to mid 1980s and until 1991, TWA flew LHR-ORD on the 747 before the route was sold to AA in a transaction separate from the $445 million sale of the JFK, BOS, LAX route authorities TWA had to LHR. There was no LGW-ORD service on TWA in the 1980s.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:11 pm

STL was very much a large hub for AA after it took over from TWA and flew to LGW and CDG. STL was never a big op for European flights, basically to the mainstays of London and Paris. JFK for TWA was always the European hub. AA continued this for a couple years past the buy out. The hub was well over 400 daily flights and AA continued the London and Paris flights on their metal. The hub was paired back due to the industry issues that followed 9/11 in the fall of 2003, where the schedule was halved to 200 daily flights and the flights to Europe and Hawaii were halted. The only “long haul” flight that remained was weekend only service to SJU. The new mini hub at STL actually performed fairly well enough for AA that some cities were added back to the hub and some cities that had service downgraded to regional service saw mainline come back and some that had prop service was upgraded to regional jet service. There had been some talk of AA even reinstating the LGW route at one point maybe around 2005/2006 or so but alas another recession kicked in around 2008 and the hub was finally dismantled around late 2009 to 2010
 
aircountry
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:43 pm

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:55 am

CIDFlyer wrote:
STL was very much a large hub for AA after it took over from TWA and flew to LGW and CDG. STL was never a big op for European flights, basically to the mainstays of London and Paris. JFK for TWA was always the European hub. AA continued this for a couple years past the buy out. The hub was well over 400 daily flights and AA continued the London and Paris flights on their metal. The hub was paired back due to the industry issues that followed 9/11 in the fall of 2003, where the schedule was halved to 200 daily flights and the flights to Europe and Hawaii were halted. The only “long haul” flight that remained was weekend only service to SJU. The new mini hub at STL actually performed fairly well enough for AA that some cities were added back to the hub and some cities that had service downgraded to regional service saw mainline come back and some that had prop service was upgraded to regional jet service. There had been some talk of AA even reinstating the LGW route at one point maybe around 2005/2006 or so but alas another recession kicked in around 2008 and the hub was finally dismantled around late 2009 to 2010


Thats true and I heard AA said want to close hub in STL due too close between 2 hubs are DFW and ORD while STL is in the middle between both.
 
aircountry
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:43 pm

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:58 am

DL_Mech wrote:
I recall a Military Airlift Command ticket counter in the area just east of the Spirit of St. Louis airplane in the ‘80s. I believe the arrival/departure boards showed that Transamerica flight on there but I don’t remember the destination.


The destination is Osaka, Japan and other Japan city not sure up to 2 or 3 cities some are connect to ANC.
 
Ionosphere
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:52 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Ionosphere wrote:

July 2001 TWA Trans Atlantic Routes
JFK: CAI, CDG, RUH via CAI
STL: CDG, LGW


When did Tel Aviv end? Are you sure it wasn’t flying? That ran right to the end I thought


I have that combined AA/TW July timetable also - CDG & CAI were the only nonstop transatlantic routes left from JFK in July.Intrestingly DL began JFK-CAI the same month but shelved it after 9/11 as did TW/AA.
In Dec 00' TLV, MXP & LIS were still flown per that timetable. CDG & CAI were also flow obviously.
In both timetables CAI flight went on to RUH.


I think DL flew the MD-11 JFK-CAI-DXB
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6720
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:45 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:

When did Tel Aviv end? Are you sure it wasn’t flying? That ran right to the end I thought


I have that combined AA/TW July timetable also - CDG & CAI were the only nonstop transatlantic routes left from JFK in July.Intrestingly DL began JFK-CAI the same month but shelved it after 9/11 as did TW/AA.
In Dec 00' TLV, MXP & LIS were still flown per that timetable. CDG & CAI were also flow obviously.
In both timetables CAI flight went on to RUH.


I think DL flew the MD-11 JFK-CAI-DXB


It was very short-lived.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:45 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:

When did Tel Aviv end? Are you sure it wasn’t flying? That ran right to the end I thought


I have that combined AA/TW July timetable also - CDG & CAI were the only nonstop transatlantic routes left from JFK in July.Intrestingly DL began JFK-CAI the same month but shelved it after 9/11 as did TW/AA.
In Dec 00' TLV, MXP & LIS were still flown per that timetable. CDG & CAI were also flow obviously.
In both timetables CAI flight went on to RUH.


I think DL flew the MD-11 JFK-CAI-DXB


They did. Launched in June 2001, three times weekly JFK-CAI-DXB, using the MD11. The route was suspended shortly after 9/11 and never came back. On October 14th 2001, Delta had announced the route was suspended to March 2002 but it was never re-started.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:49 pm

CIDFlyer wrote:
STL was very much a large hub for AA after it took over from TWA and flew to LGW and CDG. STL was never a big op for European flights, basically to the mainstays of London and Paris. JFK for TWA was always the European hub. AA continued this for a couple years past the buy out. The hub was well over 400 daily flights and AA continued the London and Paris flights on their metal. The hub was paired back due to the industry issues that followed 9/11 in the fall of 2003, where the schedule was halved to 200 daily flights and the flights to Europe and Hawaii were halted. The only “long haul” flight that remained was weekend only service to SJU. The new mini hub at STL actually performed fairly well enough for AA that some cities were added back to the hub and some cities that had service downgraded to regional service saw mainline come back and some that had prop service was upgraded to regional jet service. There had been some talk of AA even reinstating the LGW route at one point maybe around 2005/2006 or so but alas another recession kicked in around 2008 and the hub was finally dismantled around late 2009 to 2010


AA bought TWA to knock out a competitor, something it had done a few times over its post-deregulation history (Air Cal, Reno Air). AA argued it wanted the STL hub to relieve pressure on ORD, which is ironic, considering how much ORD has been scaled back by AA since, to essentially a domestic hub with token service to LHR year round and some seasonal services (ORD was once AA's primary gateway to Europe). It was one of the most ill-timed airline "mergers" ever but TWA was limping along and running on less than fumes at the time. Had TWA remained a stand alone airline past-9/11, it would have shut down within weeks.
 
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CLEguy
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:10 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Is there a running list of "former hubs that have lost the most transoceanic service"? I would imagine STL is near the top of that list. CVG, while still a focus city, also once had a lot more transoceanic than the one CDG flight they retain. MEM had AMS and CLE had LHR (or was it LGW?), and PIT had both London airports at one time or another (were there any other European destinations from PIT?). Any other airports I'm forgetting?


CLE had LGW (1999-2008, both year-round and seasonal at the end) and LHR in the final year of service (seasonal in 2009) before the Great Recession killed the route, and CDG for the summer of 2008 only, both on Continental. Don't forget service to KEF in summer 2018 on both Icelandair and WOW.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: TWA flights to Europe from STL

Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:37 pm

CLEguy wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Is there a running list of "former hubs that have lost the most transoceanic service"? I would imagine STL is near the top of that list. CVG, while still a focus city, also once had a lot more transoceanic than the one CDG flight they retain. MEM had AMS and CLE had LHR (or was it LGW?), and PIT had both London airports at one time or another (were there any other European destinations from PIT?). Any other airports I'm forgetting?


CLE had LGW (1999-2008, both year-round and seasonal at the end) and LHR in the final year of service (seasonal in 2009) before the Great Recession killed the route, and CDG for the summer of 2008 only, both on Continental. Don't forget service to KEF in summer 2018 on both Icelandair and WOW.


What killed CLE-LHR wasn't really the Great Recession. CO wanted to the LHR slot for a further EWR frequency, as I recall, and simply moved the flight to EWR.

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