As someone who regularly flew Norwegian on TATL routes & having flown NZ to Florida, I think NZ would be brilliant to try TATL late night departures out of FLL or MCO. With the void left by NLH’s demise, an MCO/FLL hop to LGW/BCN/CDG/FCO would be a major success. It would have an advantage Norwegian lacked: strong ULCC domestic-to-TATL feed on the SAME airline, eliminating the fears associated with “self booking” between different airlines. The slots are there for the taking! What do y’all think?

I think B6 has the market for low-cost TATL from a US airline cornered. Plus, the Dreamliner won't fit in Spirit's Airbus-only fleet and also all narrowbody. Sorry, but you're too early for April Fools...

Sdmccray1984 wrote:

As someone who regularly flew Norwegian on TATL routes & having flown NZ to Florida, I think NZ would be brilliant to try TATL late night departures out of FLL or MCO. With the void left by NLH’s demise, an MCO/FLL hop to LGW/BCN/CDG/FCO would be a major success. It would have an advantage Norwegian lacked: strong ULCC domestic-to-TATL feed on the SAME airline, eliminating the fears associated with “self booking” between different airlines. The slots are there for the taking! What do y’all think?

Why would Air New Zealand fly transatlantic? Makes no sense.

You haven’t flown NZ to Florida.

I would hazard a guess that is a brain fart rather than thinking this thought has anything to do with NZ.

To the topic, no, it's not happening, no way would Sprit even think about trying trans Atlantic in normal times, let alone this year, right now they are just working on losing as little as possible, a sure way to not do that is to lease/buy 788/789's and fly them empty to Europe.

FriscoHeavy wrote:

Sdmccray1984 wrote:

As someone who regularly flew Norwegian on TATL routes & having flown NZ to Florida, I think NZ would be brilliant to try TATL late night departures out of FLL or MCO. With the void left by NLH’s demise, an MCO/FLL hop to LGW/BCN/CDG/FCO would be a major success. It would have an advantage Norwegian lacked: strong ULCC domestic-to-TATL feed on the SAME airline, eliminating the fears associated with “self booking” between different airlines. The slots are there for the taking! What do y’all think?

Why would Air New Zealand fly transatlantic? Makes no sense.

You haven’t flown NZ to Florida.

Easy to decipher that he meant NK.

If Spirit gets 787. It would be ugly yellow 787. LOL

Q

I have also thought this before but from DTW with narrowbody A321s. Much lower risk out of Detroit with narrowbodies than the highly competitive Florida market.

FriscoHeavy wrote:

Sdmccray1984 wrote:

As someone who regularly flew Norwegian on TATL routes & having flown NZ to Florida, I think NZ would be brilliant to try TATL late night departures out of FLL or MCO. With the void left by NLH’s demise, an MCO/FLL hop to LGW/BCN/CDG/FCO would be a major success. It would have an advantage Norwegian lacked: strong ULCC domestic-to-TATL feed on the SAME airline, eliminating the fears associated with “self booking” between different airlines. The slots are there for the taking! What do y’all think?

Why would Air New Zealand fly transatlantic? Makes no sense.

You haven’t flown NZ to Florida.

In the past, they flew London to Auckland via Los Angeles, so the London to Los Angeles would have, in fact, been transatlantic. I do agree that he didn't fly them to Florida.

Yeah guys my bad I meant NK not NZ; I mixed discussions from another conversation. Nevertheless, do you guys not think there’s a market for big yellow dreamliners crossing the Atlantic out of MCO or FLL? I find that hard to believe, especially given the drop off of TATL low cost stuff out of KSFB...

I like the concept but I would think if there is a sudden TATL panacea from those two markets amid a post-covid demand recovery, Delta and AA will have ample idle aircraft to get the job done.

klm617 wrote:

I have also thought this before but from DTW with narrowbody A321s. Much lower risk out of Detroit with narrowbodies than the highly competitive Florida market.

Which has the disadvantage that there's nearly zero demand from Europe to Detroit, but there is demand from Europe to Florida. Detroit would be nothing more than a transfer point from where passengers can fly onward to wherever in America they want to be.

Boeing757100 wrote:

I think B6 has the market for low-cost TATL from a US airline cornered.

JetBlue isn't really low-cost. What they're doing is offering a high service level for the price of a somewhat lower service level, but for someone who doesn't care about service level and just wants to get to their destination as cheap as possible they're still expensive.

Currently the one true TATL LCC remaining is FrenchBee. Somewhat the same concept as Norwegian, only on a much smaller scale. But if you're looking for a cheap flight across the pond, they're a viable option.

It's hard to imagine a US low cost carrier being competitive to Europe, head to head with their European counterparts. Pilot salaries dwarf those of their European competitors, especially with the hourly rates they earn on top. Spirit Airlines will end up paying as much to a newly hired FO for a roundtrip as Wizz Air pays its pilots for an entire month.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

I have also thought this before but from DTW with narrowbody A321s. Much lower risk out of Detroit with narrowbodies than the highly competitive Florida market.

Which has the disadvantage that there's nearly zero demand from Europe to Detroit, but there is demand from Europe to Florida. Detroit would be nothing more than a transfer point from where passengers can fly onward to wherever in America they want to be.

Boeing757100 wrote:

I think B6 has the market for low-cost TATL from a US airline cornered.

JetBlue isn't really low-cost. What they're doing is offering a high service level for the price of a somewhat lower service level, but for someone who doesn't care about service level and just wants to get to their destination as cheap as possible they're still expensive.

Currently the one true TATL LCC remaining is FrenchBee. Somewhat the same concept as Norwegian, only on a much smaller scale. But if you're looking for a cheap flight across the pond, they're a viable option.

Where did you get the idea that Detroit has zero demand to Europe. Might not be as much as Florida but you could get higher fares than you can out of Florida plus DTW is in range of many destinations in Europe that Florida is not. Also NK is the 4 th largest operating vase for NK so connections are possible. Mass does not create profitability.

VSMUT wrote:

It's hard to imagine a US low cost carrier being competitive to Europe, head to head with their European counterparts. Pilot salaries dwarf those of their European competitors, especially with the hourly rates they earn on top. Spirit Airlines will end up paying as much to a newly hired FO for a roundtrip as Wizz Air pays its pilots for an entire month.

What does Spirit flying transatlantic have to do with airlines that only fly intra-Europe?

johns624 wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

It's hard to imagine a US low cost carrier being competitive to Europe, head to head with their European counterparts. Pilot salaries dwarf those of their European competitors, especially with the hourly rates they earn on top. Spirit Airlines will end up paying as much to a newly hired FO for a roundtrip as Wizz Air pays its pilots for an entire month.

What does Spirit flying transatlantic have to do with airlines that only fly intra-Europe?

Because some of those low cost airlines also fly transatlantic, and some of them will soon be getting aircraft capable of doing so. Eurowings Discover, Level, Wizz Air with the upcoming A321XLR, Ryanair with the upcoming 737MAX (more limited, but still able to do it). If Spirit finds it possible, it will only be a matter of time before some sketchy European ULCC with underpaid and overworked crew try to grab the cake.

johns624 wrote:

What does Spirit flying transatlantic have to do with airlines that only fly intra-Europe?

Every action triggers a reaction. If an American ULCC opens TATL routes to European airports (where the European LCCs have their customer base), no doubt those European LCCs will react by opening TATL routes as well. They don't want Spirit taking away their customers, so they'll start competing routes. And since those European LCCs have a lower cost base, they can offer lower fares than Spirit.

Don't look at what is, look at what can be.

I believe Spirit would be concentrating on their American customer base.

johns624 wrote:

I believe Spirit would be concentrating on their American customer base.

No doubt they would, but they would also dilute the customer bases of the European LCCs even if they're not concentrating on it. Europeans would find them for a cheap trip across the Atlantic.

And that's what the European LCCs won't like about it, that's why they'll take countermeasures by opening up competing flights. Those competing flights would initially be concentrating on European customers, but no doubt Americans would find them as well.

TWA772LR wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Where did you get the idea that Detroit has zero demand to Europe. Might not be as much as Florida but you could get higher fares than you can out of Florida plus DTW is in range of many destinations in Europe that Florida is not. Also NK is the 4 th largest operating vase for NK so connections are possible. Mass does not create profitability.

Ever been to Europe? There's tons of TUI posters advertising places like Thailand, the Canaries, and Florida. Europe, like the US, is loaded with middle class people that want a middle class vacation to the beach or a huge tourism spot like NYC. Detroit is like Frankfurt, no tourism, all business, and has a huge airline hub. As yourself, as a consenting average consumer on a Germany vacation (idk if you have flight benefits) are you more willing to spend a few days in Munich/Berlin or Frankfurt?

Very much agreed.

Detroit has kind of a negative imago in Europe as a high crime city with slums that are beyond imagination for most Europeans. Not sure if that's entirely justified, but that's the way most Europeans see Detroit. If Europeans visit America, they visit places like New York, Miami or Los Angeles. Not Detroit.

The little demand there is between Europe and Detroit is business demand, which is better served on legacy airlines.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Where did you get the idea that Detroit has zero demand to Europe. Might not be as much as Florida but you could get higher fares than you can out of Florida plus DTW is in range of many destinations in Europe that Florida is not. Also NK is the 4 th largest operating vase for NK so connections are possible. Mass does not create profitability.

Ever been to Europe? There's tons of TUI posters advertising places like Thailand, the Canaries, and Florida. Europe, like the US, is loaded with middle class people that want a middle class vacation to the beach or a huge tourism spot like NYC. Detroit is like Frankfurt, no tourism, all business, and has a huge airline hub. As yourself, as a consenting average consumer on a Germany vacation (idk if you have flight benefits) are you more willing to spend a few days in Munich/Berlin or Frankfurt?

Very much agreed.

Detroit has kind of a negative imago in Europe as a high crime city with slums that are beyond imagination for most Europeans. Not sure if that's entirely justified, but that's the way most Europeans see Detroit. If Europeans visit America, they visit places like New York, Miami or Los Angeles. Not Detroit.

The little demand there is between Europe and Detroit is business demand, which is better served on legacy airlines.

You are assuming no one from Detroit that is budget minded wants to visit Europe. Which is not the case at all. We can use Manchester as an example who goes there on vacation but yet we have Aer Lingus investing there in setting up an TATL hub the same is true for Detroit there is a HUGE unserved demand that is just aching to be filled.

TWA772LR wrote:

klm617 wrote:

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Which has the disadvantage that there's nearly zero demand from Europe to Detroit, but there is demand from Europe to Florida. Detroit would be nothing more than a transfer point from where passengers can fly onward to wherever in America they want to be.



JetBlue isn't really low-cost. What they're doing is offering a high service level for the price of a somewhat lower service level, but for someone who doesn't care about service level and just wants to get to their destination as cheap as possible they're still expensive.

Currently the one true TATL LCC remaining is FrenchBee. Somewhat the same concept as Norwegian, only on a much smaller scale. But if you're looking for a cheap flight across the pond, they're a viable option.

Where did you get the idea that Detroit has zero demand to Europe. Might not be as much as Florida but you could get higher fares than you can out of Florida plus DTW is in range of many destinations in Europe that Florida is not. Also NK is the 4 th largest operating vase for NK so connections are possible. Mass does not create profitability.

Ever been to Europe? There's tons of TUI posters advertising places like Thailand, the Canaries, and Florida. Europe, like the US, is loaded with middle class people that want a middle class vacation to the beach or a huge tourism spot like NYC. Detroit is like Frankfurt, no tourism, all business, and has a huge airline hub. As yourself, as a consenting average consumer on a Germany vacation (idk if you have flight benefits) are you more willing to spend a few days in Munich/Berlin or Frankfurt?

Frankfurt gets my vote every time. In fact in my life I have been back and forth to Frankfurt more than 30 times. There is a lot of rich culture in the Rhine wine valley area so yes Frankfurt. Again you are assuming people from Detroit have no desire to travel. Think of Detroit as the origin and not the destination much like you portrayed Frankfurt..

Another thing to remember is that Spirit pretty much started in DTW and has a lot of flights out of here, still. If Europeans want to connect to other cities, there are a lot worse places to go through US Customs than DTW.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

What does Spirit flying transatlantic have to do with airlines that only fly intra-Europe?

Every action triggers a reaction. If an American ULCC opens TATL routes to European airports (where the European LCCs have their customer base), no doubt those European LCCs will react by opening TATL routes as well. They don't want Spirit taking away their customers, so they'll start competing routes. And since those European LCCs have a lower cost base, they can offer lower fares than Spirit.

Don't look at what is, look at what can be.

How would a US airline take customers away from a EU airline that does not fly the route?

jetwet1 wrote:

How would a US airline take customers away from a EU airline that does not fly the route?

Because the route is less relevant.

Those people have a few days or weeks off and want to get away. The destination is irrelevant, they just want to get out. Somewhere nice, somewhere they've never been before.

Now they've got the choice, one of the many European destinations or that one American destination. Instead of flying within Europe, they might choose to go to America for a change. That means that European LCC misses their chance to sell a ticket to them.

VSMUT wrote:

It's hard to imagine a US low cost carrier being competitive to Europe, head to head with their European counterparts. Pilot salaries dwarf those of their European competitors, especially with the hourly rates they earn on top. Spirit Airlines will end up paying as much to a newly hired FO for a roundtrip as Wizz Air pays its pilots for an entire month.

Interesting to hear. And a shame. I know experiences vary from person to person, but I've always found crews on international carriers to be very attentive and hospitable, and often times more friendly than those on US carriers when I fly international. If their salaries aren't great, they deserve them.

Out of LAX I've flown them all at one point or another: Austrian, BA, Iberia, Air France, KLM, Aer Lingus, Aeroflot, LOT, Alitalia, Finnair, Lufthansa, and SAS. I received more smiles and greetings from them than I have those on US carriers. Of course, you get your share of FAs and crews who don't, but overall I have found them pretty good.

The South American airlines I have flown have also been great: Avianca, LAN, LATAM, GOL, Varig, TAM, Azul/Austral, Aerolineas Argentinas (though their on-time schedule was pretty bad)...all were good. And I swear the FAs looked like models on a lot of those flights.

A friend was flying to Europe on Delta, coach, and the person behind him got upset when my friend's seat went back a bit. The male FA walking by said that's what you get when you fly coach. Yikes. Some things are better left unsaid.

WrldTravlr65 wrote:

A friend was flying to Europe on Delta, coach, and the person behind him got upset when my friend's seat went back a bit. The male FA walking by said that's what you get when you fly coach. Yikes. Some things are better left unsaid.

I can totally understand the person behind him getting upset, with the tight seat pitch these days people shouldn't be allowed to recline. I get upset as well if the person in front of me reclines, it hurts my knees. Economy seats are good enough as long as they're upright, they should stay that way.

That being said, the flight attendant could have said it in a more friendly way.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

WrldTravlr65 wrote:

A friend was flying to Europe on Delta, coach, and the person behind him got upset when my friend's seat went back a bit. The male FA walking by said that's what you get when you fly coach. Yikes. Some things are better left unsaid.

I can totally understand the person behind him getting upset, with the tight seat pitch these days people shouldn't be allowed to recline. I get upset as well if the person in front of me reclines, it hurts my knees. Economy seats are good enough as long as they're upright, they should stay that way.

That being said, the flight attendant could have said it in a more friendly way.

Why do we get upset with fellow passengers for the lack of space airlines are giving for the price you pay. If there isn't enough space buy a business class ticket or write to the airline and tell them about your less that desirable experience that's not a fellow passengers fault.

WrldTravlr65 wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

It's hard to imagine a US low cost carrier being competitive to Europe, head to head with their European counterparts. Pilot salaries dwarf those of their European competitors, especially with the hourly rates they earn on top. Spirit Airlines will end up paying as much to a newly hired FO for a roundtrip as Wizz Air pays its pilots for an entire month.

Interesting to hear. And a shame. I know experiences vary from person to person, but I've always found crews on international carriers to be very attentive and hospitable, and often times more friendly than those on US carriers when I fly international. If their salaries aren't great, they deserve them.

Out of LAX I've flown them all at one point or another: Austrian, BA, Iberia, Air France, KLM, Aer Lingus, Aeroflot, LOT, Alitalia, Finnair, Lufthansa, and SAS. I received more smiles and greetings from them than I have those on US carriers. Of course, you get your share of FAs and crews who don't, but overall I have found them pretty good.

The South American airlines I have flown have also been great: Avianca, LAN, LATAM, GOL, Varig, TAM, Azul/Austral, Aerolineas Argentinas (though their on-time schedule was pretty bad)...all were good. And I swear the FAs looked like models on a lot of those flights.

A friend was flying to Europe on Delta, coach, and the person behind him got upset when my friend's seat went back a bit. The male FA walking by said that's what you get when you fly coach. Yikes. Some things are better left unsaid.

It's not the mainline European carriers, although the T&Cs and salaries at those are dropping like a rock too. It is airlines like Wizz Air, Ryanair and EasyJet that are really leading the way down and setting the standard for new entrants. Starting 2023, Wizz Air will have TATL capable A321XLRs crewed by pilots that earn less than $1000 USD a month. Lufthansa recently launched yet another Eurowings long haul subsidiary, which will aim at reducing terms and conditions even further. You have a handful of eastern european ACMI carriers openly relying on pay-2-fly pilots that are beginning to expand with scheduled long haul traffic on A330s.

klm617 wrote:

PatrickZ80 wrote:

I can totally understand the person behind him getting upset, with the tight seat pitch these days people shouldn't be allowed to recline. I get upset as well if the person in front of me reclines, it hurts my knees. Economy seats are good enough as long as they're upright, they should stay that way.

That being said, the flight attendant could have said it in a more friendly way.

Why do we get upset with fellow passengers for the lack of space airlines are giving for the price you pay. If there isn't enough space buy a business class ticket or write to the airline and tell them about your less that desirable experience that's not a fellow passengers fault.

Obviously you didn't read well enough. I said the airlines are giving sufficient space as long as the seats stay upright. It is the passengers fault for reclining their seats even though the seat pitch doesn't allow for it.

VSMUT wrote:

WrldTravlr65 wrote:

It is airlines like Wizz Air, Ryanair and EasyJet that are really leading the way down and setting the standard for new entrants. Starting 2023, Wizz Air will have TATL capable A321XLRs crewed by pilots that earn less than $1000 USD a month.

I honestly can't wait to fly Wizzair TATL. Even though I don't agree with their low wages, what attracts me to them is their non-reclining seats. I'd be more than willing to pay a few bucks extra to give the pilots a decent wage, that's not the problem. It's just that legacy airlines think they do the passengers a favor by installing reclining seats when in reality it's just the opposite.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

I'd be more than willing to pay a few bucks extra to give the pilots a decent wage, that's not the problem.

But you don't, and that's the real problem here. Not nonsensical non-reclining seats.

Q wrote:

If Spirit gets 787. It would be ugly yellow 787. LOL

Q

Haha. Agree!

I actually think the best choices for NK to launch TATL flights is BWI and DTW. The reasoning being there is no competition at either city when it comes to low coast TATL travel large cachet area to draw from at both airports have the ability to reach many high profile European destinations with narrow body jets making that low risk. Spirit has great brand recognition in the Detroit market. I think they would really do well with that plan moving forward. Spirit could also set their network to field some connections for these flights out of DTW. DUB, MAN, LGW, GLA, KEF, BRU, DUS and the like could be served 3 or 4 weekly like they do from FLL to South America.