Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
alohashirts
Topic Author
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:45 pm

Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:31 am

Salt Lake City is a growing market with a strong economy, fast growing population, centrally located out west, and has the 22nd largest CSA population in the country. With that could SLC potentially become a hub or focus city for another airline? I look at B6 and AS as airlines that could build SLC. There have been rumors that UA might build a United Club at the airport and expand SLC to more than just the UA hubs. Curious to what other people thoughts are.
 
Wneast
Posts: 1066
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:34 am

I wonder if southwest could ever try to re establish there self In salt lake or would they just get pushed out ?
 
flyerexp99
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:34 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:45 am

SLC likely does not have the international O&D to support a long haul hub, so it would need to be a domestic hub.

As a western domestic hub, United is set with Denver, which is a pretty ideal location to do domestic transfers. United also has hubs with massive O&D at SFO and LAX.

AA also is pretty set with LAX and PHX as its stations out west. Any connection that would be too much of a backtrack from PHX can also be handled at DFW/ORD.

Delta benefits with SLC as its western domestic hub as it has no other hubs west of MSP that are not on the west coast.

Who else is out there? Alaska, they’ve got SFO, LAX, and their home base of SEA. Alaska seems to be only interested in serving trips in the lower 48 that involve the west coast. To be honest, if I’m on the east coast, and I’m looking to fly to Utah, Alaska Airlines is not an airline name that comes to top of mind. I think they may be held back somewhat by their name when flying anything other than within Alaska and to/from the West Coast.

JetBlue would probably be the best candidate for SLC. They’ve got ZERO hubs that are not on a coast with LAX as their sole west coast operation. SLC could help them to connect more markets out west that don’t involve a connection at LAX.
 
LASVegan
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:29 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:06 am

flyerexp99 wrote:
SLC likely does not have the international O&D to support a long haul hub, so it would need to be a domestic hub.


JetBlue would probably be the best candidate for SLC. They’ve got ZERO hubs that are not on a coast with LAX as their sole west coast operation. SLC could help them to connect more markets out west that don’t involve a connection at LAX.


I agree that B6 could make sense. I believe David Neelman had a connection to SLC and SLC was one of their first cities out west.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3744
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:24 am

LASVegan wrote:
flyerexp99 wrote:
SLC likely does not have the international O&D to support a long haul hub, so it would need to be a domestic hub.


JetBlue would probably be the best candidate for SLC. They’ve got ZERO hubs that are not on a coast with LAX as their sole west coast operation. SLC could help them to connect more markets out west that don’t involve a connection at LAX.


I agree that B6 could make sense. I believe David Neelman had a connection to SLC and SLC was one of their first cities out west.



I don’t think that had anything to do with it, it was more the setup for call centers. Continental had one in SLC as well, but only operated 2-3 flights a day generally.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:29 am

alohashirts wrote:
Salt Lake City is a growing market with a strong economy, fast growing population, centrally located out west, and has the 22nd largest CSA population in the country. With that could SLC potentially become a hub or focus city for another airline? I look at B6 and AS as airlines that could build SLC. There have been rumors that UA might build a United Club at the airport and expand SLC to more than just the UA hubs. Curious to what other people thoughts are.


SLC is not going to become a UA focus city, nor are there any credible rumors suggesting such. SLC has the second-lowest O/D traffic of any trunk hub - there simply isn't enough traffic to warrant a focus city, let alone another hub.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4726
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:37 am

What about a low-cost airline? I'm surprised Salt Lake City has neither Spirit, nor Allegiant, and only very little Frontier. it seems to be full service airlines only. I can totally see Spirit or Frontier make Salt Lake City work for them.
 
Tokushima
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:06 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:49 am

LASVegan wrote:
flyerexp99 wrote:
SLC likely does not have the international O&D to support a long haul hub, so it would need to be a domestic hub.


JetBlue would probably be the best candidate for SLC. They’ve got ZERO hubs that are not on a coast with LAX as their sole west coast operation. SLC could help them to connect more markets out west that don’t involve a connection at LAX.


I agree that B6 could make sense. I believe David Neelman had a connection to SLC and SLC was one of their first cities out west.


That connection came from Morris Air which he owned (and sold to WN). Morris Air was based in SLC.http://www.departedflights.com/KNsummer92.html
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:52 am

These "one airport as a hub for two airlines" strategies almost always fail: witness TWA in Atlanta, Delta at DFW, Continental at Denver, and various entrants at MIA. Hubs needs some O&D demand; most cities tap that demand with one carrier. Moreover, it's easy for the incumbent to push out the challenger.

The only exception -- Chicago with both UA and AA -- is the second-largest city in America, and located smack-dab in the middle of the country, making it a practical hub geographically. You really need to be a global Alpha+ city to pull this strategy off, and in the US, that means New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago. Moreover, the former two are not particularly centrally located, and in the case of New York, the city has two viable global airports and a decent domestic airport. That leaves Chicago as sui generis. (WN has had some success with Denver, but WN doesn't have megahubs in the classic sense; it's more like focus cities.)

If B6 really wants an interior hub -- and I'm not convinced it needs one -- it would need to look at places like KCI, STL, maybe ABQ or TUS, although non of those cities are really ideal hubs size- and economy-wise. Perhaps AUS/SAT, but those aren't quite as centrally located.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1146
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:02 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
These "one airport as a hub for two airlines" strategies almost always fail: witness TWA in Atlanta, Delta at DFW, Continental at Denver, and various entrants at MIA. Hubs needs some O&D demand; most cities tap that demand with one carrier. Moreover, it's easy for the incumbent to push out the challenger.

The only exception -- Chicago with both UA and AA -- is the second-largest city in America, and located smack-dab in the middle of the country, making it a practical hub geographically. You really need to be a global Alpha+ city to pull this strategy off, and in the US, that means New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago. Moreover, the former two are not particularly centrally located, and in the case of New York, the city has two viable global airports and a decent domestic airport. That leaves Chicago as sui generis. (WN has had some success with Denver, but WN doesn't have megahubs in the classic sense; it's more like focus cities.)

If B6 really wants an interior hub -- and I'm not convinced it needs one -- it would need to look at places like KCI, STL, maybe ABQ or TUS, although non of those cities are really ideal hubs size- and economy-wise. Perhaps AUS/SAT, but those aren't quite as centrally located.


DFW might be big enough in theory to have one airport as a hub for two airlines, but UA is at IAH (which is just around the corner) and for DL it would just undermine ATL. So yeah, I can't really see where you could put more than one airline into the same airport in between the coasts.
 
pranav7478
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:22 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:48 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
These "one airport as a hub for two airlines" strategies almost always fail: witness TWA in Atlanta, Delta at DFW, Continental at Denver, and various entrants at MIA. Hubs needs some O&D demand; most cities tap that demand with one carrier. Moreover, it's easy for the incumbent to push out the challenger.

The only exception -- Chicago with both UA and AA -- is the second-largest city in America, and located smack-dab in the middle of the country, making it a practical hub geographically. You really need to be a global Alpha+ city to pull this strategy off, and in the US, that means New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago. Moreover, the former two are not particularly centrally located, and in the case of New York, the city has two viable global airports and a decent domestic airport. That leaves Chicago as sui generis. (WN has had some success with Denver, but WN doesn't have megahubs in the classic sense; it's more like focus cities.)

If B6 really wants an interior hub -- and I'm not convinced it needs one -- it would need to look at places like KCI, STL, maybe ABQ or TUS, although non of those cities are really ideal hubs size- and economy-wise. Perhaps AUS/SAT, but those aren't quite as centrally located.

b6 does seem like they are putting some attention on aus. maybe eventually they could turn it into a focus city or hub. i think if they ever do have a hub in the midwest it would be there. just my guess
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14302
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:51 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
The only exception -- Chicago with both UA and AA -- is the second-largest city in America,

...huh?

Chicago isn't even close to being the 2nd largest city (nor metro) in America; that'd be Los Angeles in both cases.

Nor is it the only multi-hub city. Heck, it's not even the metro with the highest nor second highest number of hubs.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1473
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:06 am

I see a Hub/Focus City for an LCC instead of major airlines with international routes. We could say the same thing with cities like Phoenix.
 
User avatar
fanoftristars
Posts: 1700
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:03 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:37 am

I’d argue that Dallas and Houston both have a two hub operation when you look at DAL/DFW and HOU/IAH. And for that matter Chicago has three with ORD/MDW.

In addition, it seems that AS tried to make SLC a focus city with flights to places like SAN, SJC, LAS, etc but weren’t able to make it work. They have pulled back mostly. I’m not sure if B6 could do any better, though B6 has a loyal following in SLC for reasons stated above.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10171
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:12 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
The only exception -- Chicago with both UA and AA -- is the second-largest city in America,

...huh?

Chicago isn't even close to being the 2nd largest city (nor metro) in America; that'd be Los Angeles in both cases.

Nor is it the only multi-hub city. Heck, it's not even the metro with the highest nor second highest number of hubs.


Yes, the days of Chicago being the second city (in population) are long gone.

There are some cities, even multi-airport cities with multiple hubs but those are metros with way more O&D than SLC. Look at a ranking of U.S. airports by domestic O&D and see where SLC falls relative to airports with two hub carriers. It's just not in the same league.

DEN and SLC are good for catching some long-distance (+1500 mile) East-West traffic but the population density around them is really quite low. Ski resorts and national parks pull in visitor counts well out of proportion to the local population but even a lot of those visitors are arriving by car. Four hundred miles by car from Salt Lake City gets you nothing bigger than Boise - and it falls off rapidly from there: Idaho Falls, Grand Junction, St George... Compare to ATL or CLT and their ability to aggregate regional traffic.

Fight over whether you call to call WN a LCC or ULCC, but I don't believe anybody else is doing 150+ flights a day from a single airport to call it a hub. Any U.S.-48 domestic op with significantly fewer flights than that lacks the destination count or frequency to call it a hub. F9 at DEN - not a hub. AS at PDX - not a hub. Somebody like Spirit might try 20 flights a day at SLC (the common West Coast destinations, the typical Florida beach + MCO destinations, a few other tourist destinations), but that's not a hub.
 
User avatar
bluefltspecial
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:27 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:22 pm

When JetBlue started they hired a large number of people to work the "res center" from home, a number of these are mormon's and thus it created a good following in the Mormon community, David Neeleman who helped found JetBlue himself is a Mormon. Even with Delta playing first fiddle in SLC, JetBlue has a good following there, religion aside.

I know previously, one of the main issues of growing at SLC with JetBlue was gate space. That will likely no longer be the case with the new terminal. While I don't know if it could become a hub, it certainly will have the ability to become more than just a stub. Currently, they operate from SLC to Boston, Fort Lauderdale, Los Angeles, New York–JFK, Orlando - all of the major operations at JetBlue. I'm guessing as airlines continue to chase fun & sun traffic post covid, you'll see some sun destinations like CUN/SJD and more Florida destinations, but those are just guesses.
 
pmanni1
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:34 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about a low-cost airline? I'm surprised Salt Lake City has neither Spirit, nor Allegiant, and only very little Frontier. it seems to be full service airlines only. I can totally see Spirit or Frontier make Salt Lake City work for them.

They've probably avoided it because of the low O&D. SLC is hugely overserved already for a metro it's size.
 
airlinepeanuts
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:35 pm

Breeze Airways?
 
Runway765
Posts: 420
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:31 pm

No, SLC is no DEN. It doesn’t have the O&D to suppport two hubs. The only reason it is a hub is because of geography. I could see DL boosting the hub to maybe 400 flights in the future, but that’s it.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10525
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:33 pm

LASVegan wrote:
flyerexp99 wrote:
SLC likely does not have the international O&D to support a long haul hub, so it would need to be a domestic hub.


JetBlue would probably be the best candidate for SLC. They’ve got ZERO hubs that are not on a coast with LAX as their sole west coast operation. SLC could help them to connect more markets out west that don’t involve a connection at LAX.


I agree that B6 could make sense. I believe David Neelman had a connection to SLC and SLC was one of their first cities out west.


It makes absolutely no sense at all, IMO. A hub or focus city in SLC is the furthest thing from B6's business model (to fly to destinations that people from NY and Boston want to travel to). If they ever feel the need to setup a focus city in the Rockies it would be DEN, not SLC IMO. Why? DEN has more O&D traffic; DEN is 1 hour closer to BOS/NYC where their core customers are. But given that they now fly to places like BZN, MTJ, and HDN from the East Coast, I just don't see the need for a focus city or hub at either SLC or DEN.

The only "major" carriers without a hub or focus city in the Rockies are AA and AS so I guess if I had to pick one, I'd say one of those but I doubt it. AS is very much the West Coast version of B6 when it comes to their business model, and AA is now in bed with B6 and they will likely be coordinating their routes from the coasts to secondary cities in the Rockies. If anything this should create even less demand for a "middle of the country" hub or focus city.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5240
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:52 pm

I don't think the SLC airport or area should really want a second airline. Delta serves pretty much anywhere a business Traveller could need to go. Same way clt or msp or dtw don't really need a second airline.

Airlines have tried a SLC focus city most recently as, b6 in the past and southwest. Delta's has protected slc pretty well. I just don't see it happening tbh. Having one full legacy hub is really enough.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6391
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:08 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Airlines have tried a SLC focus city most recently as, b6 in the past and southwest. Delta's has protected slc pretty well. I just don't see it happening tbh. Having one full legacy hub is really enough.


Didn't AS try a build up at one point?

Just doesn't seem to be enough O&D where a focus city could coexist with DL hub

Image
https://orlandoairports.net/site/upload ... anking.pdf
 
tphuang
Posts: 6713
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:11 pm

I don't see how SLC has enough O&D for a second hub or even a successful focus city. Any hub would also have to battle connections at DEN. A tall order to say the least.

Maybe with DN connection, Breeze can try something at SLC. You'd need really low cost to have a focus city next to Delta hub.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2711
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:37 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
The only exception -- Chicago with both UA and AA -- is the second-largest city in America, and located smack-dab in the middle of the country, making it a practical hub geographically. You really need to be a global Alpha+ city to pull this strategy off, and in the US, that means New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago. Moreover, the former two are not particularly centrally located, and in the case of New York, the city has two viable global airports and a decent domestic airport. That leaves Chicago as sui generis. (WN has had some success with Denver, but WN doesn't have megahubs in the classic sense; it's more like focus cities.)

Chicago isn't the second largest city anymore, LA is. It is the third largest CSA, although that is likely to be eclipsed by the BWI metro area in the next one or two years.

The Washington DC metro area is a multi-hub city. I can almost guarantee you that if legally possible AA would absolutely have long-haul flights out of DCA.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3044
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:15 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about a low-cost airline? I'm surprised Salt Lake City has neither Spirit, nor Allegiant, and only very little Frontier. it seems to be full service airlines only. I can totally see Spirit or Frontier make Salt Lake City work for them.

They've probably avoided it because of the low O&D. SLC is hugely overserved already for a metro it's size.


No, it isn't. SLC is a majority O&D operation, contrary to popular belief.

Jeremy
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:43 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about a low-cost airline? I'm surprised Salt Lake City has neither Spirit, nor Allegiant, and only very little Frontier. it seems to be full service airlines only. I can totally see Spirit or Frontier make Salt Lake City work for them.


Those go out of Provo, or Allegiant at least.
 
flyoregon
Posts: 890
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:23 pm

SESGDL wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about a low-cost airline? I'm surprised Salt Lake City has neither Spirit, nor Allegiant, and only very little Frontier. it seems to be full service airlines only. I can totally see Spirit or Frontier make Salt Lake City work for them.

They've probably avoided it because of the low O&D. SLC is hugely overserved already for a metro it's size.


No, it isn't. SLC is a majority O&D operation, contrary to popular belief.

Jeremy


Majority in a statistical sense, but the graph posted above shows that O&D is just 61.2%. Compared to places like TPA, MCO, BOS, SAN, AUS, PDX where that percentage is in the high 80s and 90s, 61.2% is not much of a majority. It’s more in line with most major hub airports.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:30 pm

Tokushima wrote:
LASVegan wrote:
flyerexp99 wrote:
SLC likely does not have the international O&D to support a long haul hub, so it would need to be a domestic hub.


JetBlue would probably be the best candidate for SLC. They’ve got ZERO hubs that are not on a coast with LAX as their sole west coast operation. SLC could help them to connect more markets out west that don’t involve a connection at LAX.


I agree that B6 could make sense. I believe David Neelman had a connection to SLC and SLC was one of their first cities out west.


That connection came from Morris Air which he owned (and sold to WN). Morris Air was based in SLC.http://www.departedflights.com/KNsummer92.html


History Lesson:

June Morris was quite the character, in an era of still-big name personalities in the airline business like Kelleher, Crandall, Bill Britt, etc., and the first female airline CEO. Neelman worked for her. It was Morris Air that created the “Electronic Ticketing” that Southwest later adopted.

Morris Air was a charter outfit using Ryan, Sierra Pacific, and ATA to operate the trips before deciding to create her own airline.

By 1994, they were stuck in a quandry...
They were easily standing up to Delta on the routes they competed on, and were beating Southwest at their own game, (e-ticketing was a Revolution for costs), but they were built out at Salt Lake. Expanding more would mean opening another hub, or expanding into regional ops competing directly with Skywest. They had already started flying some west coast point-to-points, but with limited success. Other competition was becoming stiffer, and travel agency sales streams were declining thanks to tech innovations like the internet.

Buying them was a coup for Southwest....
Not only did Southwest get the planes that matched their own fleet, they got Morris’s Air’s systems, which was worth much more.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:34 pm

smithbs wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about a low-cost airline? I'm surprised Salt Lake City has neither Spirit, nor Allegiant, and only very little Frontier. it seems to be full service airlines only. I can totally see Spirit or Frontier make Salt Lake City work for them.


Those go out of Provo, or Allegiant at least.

Allegiance also serves Ogden in the north valley.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:36 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
These "one airport as a hub for two airlines" strategies almost always fail: witness TWA in Atlanta, Delta at DFW, Continental at Denver, and various entrants at MIA. Hubs needs some O&D demand; most cities tap that demand with one carrier. Moreover, it's easy for the incumbent to push out the challenger.

The only exception -- Chicago with both UA and AA -- is the second-largest city in America, and located smack-dab in the middle of the country, making it a practical hub geographically. You really need to be a global Alpha+ city to pull this strategy off, and in the US, that means New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago. Moreover, the former two are not particularly centrally located, and in the case of New York, the city has two viable global airports and a decent domestic airport. That leaves Chicago as sui generis. (WN has had some success with Denver, but WN doesn't have megahubs in the classic sense; it's more like focus cities.)

If B6 really wants an interior hub -- and I'm not convinced it needs one -- it would need to look at places like KCI, STL, maybe ABQ or TUS, although non of those cities are really ideal hubs size- and economy-wise. Perhaps AUS/SAT, but those aren't quite as centrally located.


DFW might be big enough in theory to have one airport as a hub for two airlines, but UA is at IAH (which is just around the corner) and for DL it would just undermine ATL. So yeah, I can't really see where you could put more than one airline into the same airport in between the coasts.

DFW was built to be a multiple airline hub. Both AA and Branniff were hubbed there.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:45 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about a low-cost airline? I'm surprised Salt Lake City has neither Spirit, nor Allegiant, and only very little Frontier. it seems to be full service airlines only. I can totally see Spirit or Frontier make Salt Lake City work for them.

They've probably avoided it because of the low O&D. SLC is hugely overserved already for a metro it's size.

Salt Lake’s advantage and worth is, and always was, regional connecting feed from the middle and mountain West. It is the regional economic center for the entire area, even LAS, to an extent. Longer range regional flights have enabled that to be overflown to some extent, but as we have seen several times now, that doesn’t work well in an economic downturn, when profit becomes more important than market share.
 
User avatar
NCAD95
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:11 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:54 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
alohashirts wrote:
Salt Lake City is a growing market with a strong economy, fast growing population, centrally located out west, and has the 22nd largest CSA population in the country. With that could SLC potentially become a hub or focus city for another airline? I look at B6 and AS as airlines that could build SLC. There have been rumors that UA might build a United Club at the airport and expand SLC to more than just the UA hubs. Curious to what other people thoughts are.


SLC is not going to become a UA focus city, nor are there any credible rumors suggesting such. SLC has the second-lowest O/D traffic of any trunk hub - there simply isn't enough traffic to warrant a focus city, let alone another hub.


Just out of curiosity which hub has the lowest O/D.
 
flyoregon
Posts: 890
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:57 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
alohashirts wrote:
Salt Lake City is a growing market with a strong economy, fast growing population, centrally located out west, and has the 22nd largest CSA population in the country. With that could SLC potentially become a hub or focus city for another airline? I look at B6 and AS as airlines that could build SLC. There have been rumors that UA might build a United Club at the airport and expand SLC to more than just the UA hubs. Curious to what other people thoughts are.


SLC is not going to become a UA focus city, nor are there any credible rumors suggesting such. SLC has the second-lowest O/D traffic of any trunk hub - there simply isn't enough traffic to warrant a focus city, let alone another hub.


Just out of curiosity which hub has the lowest O/D.


According to the graph in post #22, CLT does at 30.1%. Amongst DL it’s ATL at 38.7%
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15353
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:04 pm

USAirALB wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
The only exception -- Chicago with both UA and AA -- is the second-largest city in America, and located smack-dab in the middle of the country, making it a practical hub geographically. You really need to be a global Alpha+ city to pull this strategy off, and in the US, that means New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago. Moreover, the former two are not particularly centrally located, and in the case of New York, the city has two viable global airports and a decent domestic airport. That leaves Chicago as sui generis. (WN has had some success with Denver, but WN doesn't have megahubs in the classic sense; it's more like focus cities.)

Chicago isn't the second largest city anymore, LA is. It is the third largest CSA, although that is likely to be eclipsed by the BWI metro area in the next one or two years.

The Washington DC metro area is a multi-hub city. I can almost guarantee you that if legally possible AA would absolutely have long-haul flights out of DCA.


All of this measuring ignores the larger point, which is that a city needs a lot of O&D - especially international - to make multiple hubs work. I love Salt Lake City (I’d actually argue that it is one of the more underrated tourist designations in the U.S.) and it punches above its weight in a lot of ways but that level of O&D simply isn’t there.
 
Runway765
Posts: 420
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:23 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
alohashirts wrote:
Salt Lake City is a growing market with a strong economy, fast growing population, centrally located out west, and has the 22nd largest CSA population in the country. With that could SLC potentially become a hub or focus city for another airline? I look at B6 and AS as airlines that could build SLC. There have been rumors that UA might build a United Club at the airport and expand SLC to more than just the UA hubs. Curious to what other people thoughts are.


SLC is not going to become a UA focus city, nor are there any credible rumors suggesting such. SLC has the second-lowest O/D traffic of any trunk hub - there simply isn't enough traffic to warrant a focus city, let alone another hub.


Agree, but I do think a United Club could be added, considering the amount of traffic that goes to DEN.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:02 pm

tphuang wrote:
I don't see how SLC has enough O&D for a second hub or even a successful focus city. Any hub would also have to battle connections at DEN. A tall order to say the least.

Maybe with DN connection, Breeze can try something at SLC. You'd need really low cost to have a focus city next to Delta hub.

Going up against DL in a hub, especially Salt Lake, in this environment is a no brain loser....

Delta has always been aggressive against new entrants, sometimes to the point of anti-trust, and the Mormon Mafia has plenty of idle RJ’s and pilots sitting around doing nothing.

Southwest has pretty much captured MCI, STL,IND, CMH, etc. The ONLY “Open” airport that has the population density, catch basin, and transportation access to potentially become a transcon hub for a new low fare entrant without going up directly against a Legacy is Gary-Chicago GYY. The runway was extended to 8,800+, but the immediate ground connections and the terminal suck. That can be solved with $$$, of course, and Indiana would be happy to do it.

I would not be surprised at all to learn that something along those lines has been discussed.

The cases can always be made for MKE, GSO or COS, but GYY is the only place that could be a true “ incubator” for an aspiring new entrant.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14302
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:10 pm

Runway765 wrote:
The only reason it is a hub is because of geography.

You pretty much just described EVERY hub.

There's few exceptions to that; notably LAX, JFK, and YYZ which became default gateways to the Pacific and Atlantic due to their massive O&D more so than their location (taking those distinctions from SFO, BOS, and YUL respectively, which had them mostly due to location)..... but they are outliers.
 
Runway765
Posts: 420
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:40 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Runway765 wrote:
The only reason it is a hub is because of geography.

You pretty much just described EVERY hub.

There's few exceptions to that; notably LAX, JFK, and YYZ which became default gateways to the Pacific and Atlantic due to their massive O&D more so than their location (taking those distinctions from SFO, BOS, and YUL respectively, which had them mostly due to location)..... but they are outliers.


I'd say PHX is another exception to that. It is suppose to be the AA counterpoint to UA/DEN and DL/SLC, but it stinks at filling that role and doesn't really make sense as a legacy hub.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:14 pm

flyoregon wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

SLC is not going to become a UA focus city, nor are there any credible rumors suggesting such. SLC has the second-lowest O/D traffic of any trunk hub - there simply isn't enough traffic to warrant a focus city, let alone another hub.


Just out of curiosity which hub has the lowest O/D.


According to the graph in post #22, CLT does at 30.1%. Amongst DL it’s ATL at 38.7%


That’s percentage.

Prior to COVID, SLC had recently passed CLT as having the the lowest total O/D (by passenger traffic, not as a percentage).

AS short lived SLC point-to-point flying was a direct response to DL’s SEA expansion. AS was trying to send a message to DL, not build a focus city at SLC.

The market simply lacks the local traffic to justify two hubs or even a focus city.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:05 am

LAX772LR wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
The only exception -- Chicago with both UA and AA -- is the second-largest city in America,

...huh?

Chicago isn't even close to being the 2nd largest city (nor metro) in America; that'd be Los Angeles in both cases.


LAX772LR is, of course, correct.

Nor is it the only multi-hub city. Heck, it's not even the metro with the highest nor second highest number of hubs.


What are the others?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14302
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:13 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
What are the others?

Depends on whether or not you wish to count WN focii as hubs (in this case, it would add to the point, as they're often highly O&D dependent).

In terms of CSA areas, then easily:
  • NYC........(DL, UA, B6)
  • LAX.........(AA, DL, UA, AS, B6)
  • SFO........(UA, AS)
  • SEA........(AS, DL)
  • MIA/FLL...(AA, F9, B6)
  • etc


Counting large WN operations, you can add WAS, DEN, DAL, HOU, and PHX to that as well.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:14 am

USAirALB wrote:

The Washington DC metro area is a multi-hub city. I can almost guarantee you that if legally possible AA would absolutely have long-haul flights out of DCA.


But the point is that it's not possible; DCA is not a true fortress hub in the way that ATL, ORD, DEN, MIA, and other air. And its capacity constraints (no wide bodies, for one) will ensure it stays that way.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14302
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:19 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
But the point is that it's not possible; DCA is not a true fortress hub in the way that ATL, ORD, DEN, MIA, and other air.

MIA is hardly a "fortress hub" for AA... it has tough competition on almost everything it flies from there, and in quite a few international routes, it does not command the highest share, set the general market rate, or even operate at all despite demand.

Will give them credit though, as it's a hard market to make work, and it's unusual compared to many longhaul markets, in that the stateside demand often dominates the foreign point of sale on some of its routes, particularly Europe.
 
leftcoast8
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:49 am

Considering how many tech companies have set up shop in SLC/Provo, why isn't there more international demand? I can see PVG working out. Delta has a Skyteam partner in China Eastern, and PVG is a great jumping off point to reach Singapore, HK/SZ or Hangzhou. SZ is only a short ferry ride away from HKIA.

Speaking of Hanghzou, I wonder when Shanghai East station station be completed. It will give PVG a direct link to the HSR network. Before the pandemic, the best option to get to Hangzhou, Wenzhou, Suzhou, etc. was to take the shuttle bus from Terminal 2 to Hongqiao railway station, but that was prone to getting stuck in traffic on the Middle/Outer Ring Road.

Subway required a change at Guanglan Road (only 4-car trains ran between Guanglan and the airport) and the maglev only runs to Longyang Road, which is pretty far from Hongqiao in the western portion of the city. Both options require a long trek on Line 2. You'd think that a city so important to China as Shanghai would get a proper HSR line serving its biggest airport. It's not like how the Narita Shinkansen was scrapped due to landowner opposition, I don't think the CCP would struggle to get land for a railway. So what's the hold up?
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:28 am

LAX772LR wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
What are the others?

Depends on whether or not you wish to count WN focii as hubs (in this case, it would add to the point, as they're often highly O&D dependent).

In terms of CSA areas, then easily:
  • NYC........(DL, UA, B6)
  • LAX.........(AA, DL, UA, AS, B6)
  • SFO........(UA, AS)
  • SEA........(AS, DL)
  • MIA/FLL...(AA, F9, B6)
  • etc

Counting large WN operations, you can add WAS, DEN, DAL, HOU, and PHX to that as well.


First off, you're counting different airports in the same city, or even region, as a single hub; I don't think that's a fair comparison. People in northern New Jersey or Philadelphia who find it convenient to use EWR will not schelp all the way to JFK if they can help it. EWR is not JFK. Nor is FLL is MIA, as Emirates (predictably) discovered. HOU is certainly not IAH, nor Love Field DFW. Hobby and Love Field are, effectively, separate sandboxes for Southwest, and Southwest only. And WN has deep roots in Texas; I doubt a new, greenfield entrant could replicate WN's Texas strategy. (The same is true with Alaska at SEA, or Hawaiian at HNL.)

Second, my main point is that there are only three cities in the country that could *really* support two airlines in a single massive hub: New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles. Those are the only Alpha-or-higher cities in the US. By and large, your list is consistent with that theory. As for SFO, that example illustrates my point, rather than refuting it: Alaska tried, and failed, to make it a true nationwide hub. AS tried nonstop flights from SFO to places like ABQ and KCI and cancelled them outright within two years, and it downgraded cities like Nashville to "seasonal" service. (All of this was well before the pandemic.) SFO remains an important node on AS north-to-south West Coast flights, but that is a niche position, not a true hub. UA proved to be too formidable of a competitor at SFO for that.

I would also argue that a similar dynamic applies to JetBlue at FLL; while B6 does have some transcons out of FLL, its strength there is the East Coast and, especially, the Caribbean. That ultimately looks like more like a niche strategy, rather than a fortress strategy. And again: FLL isn't MIA. Even that niche strategy would not have worked had B6 tried it at MIA in competition with AA. (And to return to the discussion of "why not SLC": Salt Lake is a gamma- city. Miami is a beta+. They're not remotely in the same league.)

Your strongest counterpoint is Seattle, but that leads my to my third point: I don't think of hubbing for low-cost carriers, or even B6/AS, in the same way I do for legacies.

I would exclude F9 and WN from the analysis; they tend to do multiple "focus cities" rather than true hubs, with timed, connecting arrival and departure banks. As for JetBlue and Alaska; they are still, by and large, boutique carriers with a particular niche they serve well, rather than true nationwide -- much less international -- carriers. The US3 can ultimately connect passengers between pretty much any two cities in the country. JetBlue will take you from some cities in the West to NYC; short hops to LAX from those places, much less so. Outside of the transcontinental market, B6 can, to some extent, fly under the US3's radar at places like LAX by focusing on a few select short-haul destinations, like LAS, RNO, and SLC. The story would be vastly different if they really tried to scale up operations to the US's levels in the West. (For Alaska, the same is true with respect to the East Coast. ) And all this is before we consider that Alaska has no overseas destinations, and thus is not necessarily competing with Delta for the same customers out of SEA; and JetBlue is just getting its feet wet with service to secondary airports in London.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14302
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:02 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
First off, you're counting different airports in the same city, or even region, as a single hub; I don't think that's a fair comparison.

Regardless as to what you believe is "fair," the fact remains that air travel markets aren't affected by intangible boundaries called cities.

Metropolitan and Combined Statistical Areas are far and away the most accurate means of assessment for hub catchment, because hubs are not dependent on static traffic from a single city location.


SurlyBonds wrote:
Second, my main point is that there are only three cities in the country that could *really* support two airlines in a single massive hub: New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles. Those are the only Alpha-or-higher cities in the US. By and large, your list is consistent with that theory. As for SFO, that example illustrates my point, rather than refuting it: Alaska tried, and failed, to make it a true nationwide hub.

That you feel the need to keep using moderators like "really" or "true" should be something of a wake-up call, as to the fallacious nature of your claim.

A metro either supports a viable hub or it doesn't, there's no "really" involved. And a hub is a hub; they serve different purposes and can even change their purpose. The fact that it's not nationwide ranging does not, in any way, detract from the fact that a hub is a hub.



SurlyBonds wrote:
Your strongest counterpoint is Seattle, but that leads my to my third point: I don't think of hubbing for low-cost carriers, or even B6/AS, in the same way I do for legacies.

No offense, but the way you "think of hubbing" is immaterial to the fact that (once again) a hub, is a hub.

That, and you don't seem aware that AS is one of the 4 remaining mainline Legacies (if you don't know what that term means, ask).
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:34 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Metropolitan and Combined Statistical Areas are far and away the most accurate means of assessment for hub catchment, because hubs are not dependent on static traffic from a single city location...That you feel the need to keep using moderators like "really" or "true" should be something of a wake-up call, as to the fallacious nature of your claim.


The problem with social science, or strategy analysis, is that data is always messy. That's why you find qualifiers. Of course Alaska has "a lot of flights" into SFO; it's not a remote waystation.

Nonetheless, in economics we still ultimately have to define our terms. I think of a hub as a connecting point (1) where arrivals and departures are generally timed in banks, and (2) that has a nationwide footprint, or at least a huge regional footprint.

The book STRAIGHT AND LEVEL: PRACTICAL AIRLINE ECONOMICS by Stephen Holloway notes that "airlines generally define a 'hub' as an airport where inbound flights are scheduled to arrive from outlying origins within a short period of time, disembarking passengers to leave shortly afterwards for a wide range of destination." Holloway notes that the FAA defines a "hub" as "any airport generating more than 0.05% of national enplanements," which seems to be how you're thinking about the term, but he also argues that the definition differs "when used in a commercial context, as opposed to the FAA's purely statistical approach." He then goes down to break down hubs, in the commercial sense, into megahubs and smaller hubs, based on numbers of departures, numbers of non-stop destinations, and percentage of connecting pax. He concludes that while the numbers are "arbitrary," but offer "workable guidelines."

So when I say "data is messy," that's what I'm looking for. Workable guidelines. (Note, though, that both the FAA definition and Holloway's "commercial" definition unequivocally speak of *airports* -- not metropolitan statistical areas, not combined statistical areas. You hub at an *airport*, not a region, not even a city.)

By this definition, B6 at LAX is not a hub, and certainly not a megahub. Outside of the coasts, B6 will take you from LAX to LAS, RNO, SLC, Bozeman, and a couple of Colorado ski resorts. That's it. B6 doesn't even fly from LAX to that many places on the coast: only to SFO and SEA. (B6 actually has more transcons; that's their niche.) I'll forego the formal count, but I'm sure that, say, UA out of SFO goes to at least 20 Western cities, probably more, and more still if you connect in Denver. That's before you even get to international service, where the numbers are surely even more lopsided.

The numbers are undoubtedly a bit bigger for AS at SFO, since the West is Alaska's stomping grounds, but it's clear that AS has failed at destinations like KCI that UA has found workable. Alaska's recent history at SFO proves my point. The only places where a two-airline hub works in the US are global alpha cities, and, because of geography, arguably only ORD.

As for what constitutes a "legacy carrier," I was always taught that it was the old "seven sisters" and their progeny: AA, UA, DL, CO, TW, NW, US. (Perhaps going further back you might shoehorn National, PA, and BI into that definition.) According to investor filings, in 2019, Alaska carried about 46,000,000 pax, whereas UA carried 162 million, close to four times as much. Alaska's RPM (if you don't know what that means, just ask, and I'll mansplain it to you) was about 56,000 million to United's 239,000 million, close to five times as much. They're not in the same league.

I suppose you are right to say that JetBlue and the like are no longer new entrants (WN in particular acts more and more like a legacy), but this sort of data argue that they are smaller carriers that have found a niche and serve it well. They are not all things to all people. If you're sitting in, say, SLC, United will ultimately take you nearly anywhere you want to go, so long as you're willing to connect. JetBlue will not. If the numbers at UA's SFO hub looked like B6 at LAX, we'd be debating whether UA had downgraded SFO to a focus city.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14302
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:52 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
I think of a hub as a connecting point (1) where arrivals and departures are generally timed in banks, and (2) that has a nationwide footprint, or at least a huge regional footprint.

The first three words of that sentence should tell you why any such definition is both irrelevant and immaterial.

That's not a reflection of the market as it exists, it's just something that you came up with for your own personal preference of use.



SurlyBonds wrote:
As for what constitutes a "legacy carrier," I was always taught that it was the old "seven sisters" and their progeny:

Whomever taught you that, (somewhat inaccurately) explained the "who" to you, but they did not give you the more important: "why"

The "legacy" that's being referred to, is the legacy of governmental authority to carry pax/cargo on interstate operations, prior to deregulation.
The sole remaining mainline carriers who were granted such, are AA, DL, UA, and AS.

It has absolutely nothing to do with size of the airline, model of planes, amount of pax/cargo carried, type of hub or flight network, etc.
Simply whether or not they were regulated as an instrumentality of interstate commerce, prior to 1978.
 
User avatar
NCAD95
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:11 am

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:09 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
Considering how many tech companies have set up shop in SLC/Provo, why isn't there more international demand? I can see PVG working out. Delta has a Skyteam partner in China Eastern, and PVG is a great jumping off point to reach Singapore, HK/SZ or Hangzhou. SZ is only a short ferry ride away from HKIA.

Speaking of Hanghzou, I wonder when Shanghai East station station be completed. It will give PVG a direct link to the HSR network. Before the pandemic, the best option to get to Hangzhou, Wenzhou, Suzhou, etc. was to take the shuttle bus from Terminal 2 to Hongqiao railway station, but that was prone to getting stuck in traffic on the Middle/Outer Ring Road.

Subway required a change at Guanglan Road (only 4-car trains ran between Guanglan and the airport) and the maglev only runs to Longyang Road, which is pretty far from Hongqiao in the western portion of the city. Both options require a long trek on Line 2. You'd think that a city so important to China as Shanghai would get a proper HSR line serving its biggest airport. It's not like how the Narita Shinkansen was scrapped due to landowner opposition, I don't think the CCP would struggle to get land for a railway. So what's the hold up?


How could SLC-PVG be viable when Delta hasn't even got MSP-PVG off the ground.
 
twicearound
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Could SLC be a focus city or hub for a second airline?

Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:06 am

LAX772LR wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
What are the others?

Depends on whether or not you wish to count WN focii as hubs (in this case, it would add to the point, as they're often highly O&D dependent).

In terms of CSA areas, then easily:
  • NYC........(DL, UA, B6)
  • LAX.........(AA, DL, UA, AS, B6)
  • SFO........(UA, AS)
  • SEA........(AS, DL)
  • MIA/FLL...(AA, F9, B6)
  • etc


Counting large WN operations, you can add WAS, DEN, DAL, HOU, and PHX to that as well.


And I’d throw BOS in there as well (B6 & DL)
And does Spirit still consider DTW a hub?
And MSP is technically a hub for Sun Country as well so really it is so many more cities than just Chicago.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], CarlosSi, Kno, n234nw and 11 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos