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UAUA
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Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:21 am

Which one will be bigger? Will Western Sydney Airport replace Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport? Or at least most international flights will move there?
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ikolkyo
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:27 am

The no curfew will be very attractive so who knows.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:40 am

I can't see premium passenger traffic moving from SYD to SWZ. ANd while no curfew will be attractive for some flights, it's not the biggest issue for SYD.

SWZ has way more land, so can potentially become a major a cargo hub also served by LCC flights. We may see some tourist markets grow.
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UAUA
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:07 am

Why don't they do something like HKG, ICN, KUL? Build an all new super airport and move everything into it.
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:19 am

ikolkyo wrote:
The no curfew will be very attractive so who knows.


It will mostly be attractive for domestic cargo. Other than that SWZ might have a midnight departure to SIN.

In reality the impact of the curfew on SYD is greatly overstated. It’s biggest impact is IRROPS recovery after a summer storm, although the current government has been much more willing to grant curfew exemptions in such circumstances.

Look at BNE and MEL and see how few flights there are 23:00-05:00. SIN, KUL, HKG and DXB basically covers it, other than domestic cargo.
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vhtje
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:47 am

Look at how cities with dual and multiple airports work in other parts of the world. In short, over time, each airport adapts to fulfil a specific role.

London, for example has five airports:

LHR - London’s primary airport. Major connecting hub and freight ops. Premium, full-service carrier routes, both short haul and long haul.
LGW - busiest single-runway airport in the world. Second-tier long haul (leisure-oriented) and LCC. Significantly less connecting traffic compared to LHR.
STN - LCC short haul. Significant freight ops.
LTN - LCC short haul. Little freight.
LCY - niche operation premium full-service short haul.

It is important to note that the roles airports play has evolved and adapted over time, in response to the changing economics of air travel. The advent of LCCs from the late 1990s led to significant growth for LTN and STN, and changed LGW.

Also, the geographic constraints of the airport impacts operations. LTN, for example, is very constrained, as is LCY, but in a different way. This has affected how each airport has sought growth.

I think freight will move to SWZ, and LCCs, both domestic and long haul. Presumably costs at SWZ will be lower for operators, in comparison to SYD, so this will drive traffic to the new airport. But don’t expect QF to bulk move operations to SWZ, I don’t think SWZ will be a premium traffic airport. I think it will become more like STN than LGW, and connections will be limited.
Last edited by vhtje on Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cedarjet
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:55 am

Is it definitely going ahead? Can’t see international traffic returning to 2019 levels for years. If they want to take some pressure off Kingsford-Smith (which isn’t under pressure) and do something for the environment they should build a high speed rail line to Melbourne. I guess when you’ve got a former coal industry lobbyist as prime minister anything is possible.
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Pcoder
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:37 am

cedarjet wrote:
Is it definitely going ahead? Can’t see international traffic returning to 2019 levels for years. If they want to take some pressure off Kingsford-Smith (which isn’t under pressure) and do something for the environment they should build a high speed rail line to Melbourne. I guess when you’ve got a former coal industry lobbyist as prime minister anything is possible.


It's not going open until 2026 at the earliest, so plenty of time to go. With plenty of contracts already signed and no financial issue with the government being able to afford the project, I only don't see why they would delay the airport as the jobs and stimulus provided are in more need in this economic downturn.

In regards to the viability of the airport; SWZ will be almost what Gatwick is to Heathrow, an airport at another side of the city that won't take over from SYD, but can offer a few things that SYD can't like 24 hour operations and more slots. Yes it will be a hub for LCCs but there will be some full service airlines there like Singapore, who would probably like to operate some late night flights out of Sydney but can't so will probably have a base out there as well as there existing SYD base.

I'll also predict Qantas will fly international from SWZ as the purchase of the a321XLR will allow them to operate the thin long routes to Asia without having to fill up a whole widebody.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:25 am

UAUA wrote:
Why don't they do something like HKG, ICN, KUL? Build an all new super airport and move everything into it.


Why do you think abandoning the billions of dollars of infrastructure - runways, terminals, road/rail links, hotels - is automatically a good idea? Shanghai left the old airport open. So did Bangkok (in an odd 2-step), Tokyo and Chicago.
 
Fuling
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:34 pm

Pcoder wrote:
I'll also predict Qantas will fly international from SWZ as the purchase of the a321XLR will allow them to operate the thin long routes to Asia without having to fill up a whole widebody.


And why couldn't they do that from SYD?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:03 pm

I’d like to know the long, thin routes to Asia you have in mind.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:53 pm

Pcoder wrote:
Yes it will be a hub for LCCs but there will be some full service airlines there like Singapore, who would probably like to operate some late night flights out of Sydney but can't so will probably have a base out there as well as there existing SYD base.


I think they'd leave that up to their LCC daughter airline Scoot.

I agree with others, Western Sydney would mostly be low-cost and cargo. Having it served by Scoot would make sense for that reason, and by doing so they free up the slots currently in use by Scoot at Kingsford Smith. Those can then be used to increase the frequency on the main Singapore Airlines. Using different airports is another way to give a different experience between full-service (Singapore Airlines) and low-cost (Scoot).

Western Sydney Airport will be bigger in land size, but Kingsford Smith will be bigger in passenger volumes. Lots of cargo operations will move to Western Sydney, making room for more passenger operations at Kingsford Smith. All premium-heavy full-service airlines of course, the low-cost airlines will use Western Sydney.

Such a division between full-service at one airport and low-cost at the other isn't unique, plenty of cities have it. London has already been mentioned, Bangkok is an example which Australians might be more familiar with. Full-service airlines at Suvarnabhumi, low-cost airlines at Don Mueang.
 
bunumuring
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:17 am

Hey guys,
I’m intimately familiar with SWZ and assure you that not only will it proceed, I will slowly open and flourish. I last toured the site a few months ago and it’s incredibly impressive already - the terra-forming and road works already in place are impressive and the Zaha Hadid designs for the terminal complex are inspirational and highly scalable as the need to expand over the decades come into play.
The only downside is the access railway... it really needs
To go St Marys-SWZ-Liverpool/Glenfield/Leppington (one of the three) from the very beginning, and not just the first leg. Yes, it will be mega-expensive to build but do it NOW as the pandemic creates opportunities for recession-dampening infrastructure spending.
As for airlines, I know that both QF and VA had solid plans pre-COVID for SWZ. Qatar had also publicly supported the airport pre-pandemic....
Cheers
Bununuring
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melpax
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:53 am

As others have said, Most, if not all freight-only flights will probably move too SWZ, most of Sydney's logistics & warehousing capacity is now in nearby suburbs. There will be full-service domestic demand from the start also, given the proximity to Parramatta which is a major business centre.

Once SWZ becomes operational, I wouldn't be suprised if operations at SYD start being limited over time, probably starting with moving freight only flights over, then possibly all wide-body traffic being moved over so SYD becomes a mainly domestic airport, with some international traffic from NZ & Asia. For those outside Australia, aircraft noise from SYD has been a hot political topic for decades, the curfew came into being because of pressure from those in nearby suburbs.

Another international comparison to SYD/SWZ would be Haneda/Narita, without the riots delaying construction & opening!
 
Kent350787
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:29 pm

melpax wrote:
As others have said, Most, if not all freight-only flights will probably move too SWZ, most of Sydney's logistics & warehousing capacity is now in nearby suburbs. There will be full-service domestic demand from the start also, given the proximity to Parramatta which is a major business centre.

Once SWZ becomes operational, I wouldn't be suprised if operations at SYD start being limited over time, probably starting with moving freight only flights over, then possibly all wide-body traffic being moved over so SYD becomes a mainly domestic airport, with some international traffic from NZ & Asia. For those outside Australia, aircraft noise from SYD has been a hot political topic for decades, the curfew came into being because of pressure from those in nearby suburbs.

Another international comparison to SYD/SWZ would be Haneda/Narita, without the riots delaying construction & opening!


Given SAC (operator of SYD) turned down the contractual first offer to operate SWZ, I expect the two will fight tooth and nail for traffic. Freight will be relatively simple, but passengers far more complex. SYD will always have the advantage of distance and transport links to the Sydney CBD for both business and inbound tourism, as well as better access for much of Sydney for outbound tourism.

The HND/NRT comparison is apposite, but not necessarily in the way you're suggesting. HND (pre-Covid) had growing international trafficand was preferred by locals bacause of access to Tokyo. Flights, inlcuding out of SYD, had switched back to HND.
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melpax
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:29 am

Kent350787 wrote:
melpax wrote:

Given SAC (operator of SYD) turned down the contractual first offer to operate SWZ, I expect the two will fight tooth and nail for traffic. Freight will be relatively simple, but passengers far more complex. SYD will always have the advantage of distance and transport links to the Sydney CBD for both business and inbound tourism, as well as better access for much of Sydney for outbound tourism.

The HND/NRT comparison is apposite, but not necessarily in the way you're suggesting. HND (pre-Covid) had growing international trafficand was preferred by locals bacause of access to Tokyo. Flights, inlcuding out of SYD, had switched back to HND.


Wouldn't be suprised once SWZ is up & running, if residents in suburbs close to SYD start agitating the State & Federal governments to further restrict operations at SYD, hence my comments.

Though as you said, if things stay as they are, most premium traffic will remain in SYD.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Western Sydney Airport VS Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport. Which one will be bigger?

Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:33 pm

melpax wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
melpax wrote:

Given SAC (operator of SYD) turned down the contractual first offer to operate SWZ, I expect the two will fight tooth and nail for traffic. Freight will be relatively simple, but passengers far more complex. SYD will always have the advantage of distance and transport links to the Sydney CBD for both business and inbound tourism, as well as better access for much of Sydney for outbound tourism.

The HND/NRT comparison is apposite, but not necessarily in the way you're suggesting. HND (pre-Covid) had growing international trafficand was preferred by locals bacause of access to Tokyo. Flights, inlcuding out of SYD, had switched back to HND.


Wouldn't be suprised once SWZ is up & running, if residents in suburbs close to SYD start agitating the State & Federal governments to further restrict operations at SYD, hence my comments.

Though as you said, if things stay as they are, most premium traffic will remain in SYD.


I live in the inner-west, and there is currently no realistic community movement against SYD operations, especially as aircraft become quieter. It's just not on the agenda.
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