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UA857
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If UA had merged with PA...

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:50 am

If UA had decided to merge with PA back in 1991 what would their fleet, hubs, and network look like? Assuming that UA already had the 744/752/762/763 in their fleet at the time would they have kept PA´s 741/742/A300/A310 fleet or would they dispose of them like after the merger. But what about hubs, considering the fact that UA would have got the PA Worldport at JFK would they have overtaken AA in being the largest carrier at JFK? I could have seen UA use the ex-PA hub at JFK for O&D and IAD for feed.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:53 am

UA would've definitely dumped the 741 and possibly could've made a deal to trade the A300/A310 for A320s and maybe A330s. The MIA hub probably would be around today and JFK would just be a decent sized spoke since DL got PAs JFK hub. And the German ops would be gotten rid of.
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UA857
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:00 am

TWA772LR wrote:
UA would've definitely dumped the 741 and possibly could've made a deal to trade the A300/A310 for A320s and maybe A330s. The MIA hub probably would be around today and JFK would just be a decent sized spoke since DL got PAs JFK hub. And the German ops would be gotten rid of.


I´m talking about if UA had merged with PA back in 1990.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:13 am

UA bought Pan Am's Pacific Division in 1985 for $750M, which included PA's L1011-500's and B747SP's, crew, staff and associated bases.
 
e38
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:48 am

UA did not merge with PA.

e38
 
johns624
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:55 am

e38 wrote:
UA did not merge with PA.

e38
Nobody said they did. This is a "what if" thread.
 
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AVENSAB727
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:19 am

If they did merge, the surviving company would have been called PA. PA was the more recognizable brand.
Always look on the bright side of Life!
 
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:48 am

Being “most recognizable” really wasn’t in PAA’s favor by the late 80s.
 
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:48 am

In an alternate universe, PA, CO, and EA all survived absorbed the others and UA, DL, AA, NW, US all got eaten. We'd have a US3 with different corporate branding, plus WN. The hubs might be sorted slightly differently. And not much else would be different.
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:39 pm

The hubs and network would have looked dead come 1992.
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UA857
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:30 pm

If UA had merged with PA most likely they would use JFK for O&D and IAD for connecting traffic as JFK was designed as an O&D airport at JFK UA would´ve acquired the Worldport and surpass AA in being the largest carrier at JFK. UA/DL/AA and later B6 would dominate JFK while NW and US would have smaller presences. DL and US would dominate LGA and CO would dominate EWR meaning that all 3 global airline alliances UA (Star Alliance) AA (Oneworld) and DL/CO (Skyteam) would´ve had NYC covered. Below is what JFK in the 90s would´ve looked like if a UA/PA merger had gone through:

T1: DL Intl as DL would´ve merged with EA if UA had merged with PA.
T2: DL domestic
T3: UA
T4: IAB
T5/6: TWA later B6
T7: BA
T8/9: AA
 
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:46 am

US857, one question in this monumentally silly exercise: were you around then? PAA was dumpster fire for years. I had friends that were briefly there, post-EAL. They laughed, “we had some good years, the PAA guys were wearing the sunglasses from when they left the Navy 25 years before”. Guys were at the bottom of the list with 25 years of service, planes were from the Trippe era. They weren’t merging with anyone, liquidation was too good.

There was not one chance in a quadrillion that DL was buying or merging with EAL. I was on the EA MEC, It. Would. Not. Happen. DL management hired zero EA pilots. One that did get get on the property, when they asked where he got his FE ticket was promptly fired on the spot, in Indoc. The DL MEC asked mgt there to look at
EAL crews-the door was thrown in their face.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:46 pm

DocLightning wrote:
In an alternate universe, PA, CO, and EA all survived absorbed the others and UA, DL, AA, NW, US all got eaten. We'd have a US3 with different corporate branding, plus WN. The hubs might be sorted slightly differently. And not much else would be different.


We would see threads like: "If PA had merged with DL..." :lol:
Vahroone
 
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:37 pm

It sort of did, DL bought PA’s routes in Europe, took A310s and crews.
 
UA857
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:18 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
US857, one question in this monumentally silly exercise: were you around then? PAA was dumpster fire for years. I had friends that were briefly there, post-EAL. They laughed, “we had some good years, the PAA guys were wearing the sunglasses from when they left the Navy 25 years before”. Guys were at the bottom of the list with 25 years of service, planes were from the Trippe era. They weren’t merging with anyone, liquidation was too good.

There was not one chance in a quadrillion that DL was buying or merging with EAL. I was on the EA MEC, It. Would. Not. Happen. DL management hired zero EA pilots. One that did get get on the property, when they asked where he got his FE ticket was promptly fired on the spot, in Indoc. The DL MEC asked mgt there to look at
EAL crews-the door was thrown in their face.


No I was around back then, but wouldn´t DL acquire EA´s JFK hub if UA had merged with PA as UA would gain NYC presence and DL would end up with none.
 
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ua900
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:23 am

UA857 wrote:
If UA had decided to merge with PA back in 1991 what would their fleet, hubs, and network look like? Assuming that UA already had the 744/752/762/763 in their fleet at the time would they have kept PA´s 741/742/A300/A310 fleet or would they dispose of them like after the merger. But what about hubs, considering the fact that UA would have got the PA Worldport at JFK would they have overtaken AA in being the largest carrier at JFK? I could have seen UA use the ex-PA hub at JFK for O&D and IAD for feed.


Here's my two cents given where UA was that the time having bought the Pacific Routes from Pan Am just a few years before. If UA had merged with PA in 1990/1, it would have been mostly a UA fleet, but with a much stronger presence at JFK and MIA than UA ever had in reality. That move would have weakened ORD and IAD, plus EWR and the CO merger would have likely not happend later on, and the temporary alliance with US Airways as part of *A would have likely never happened.

UA would have been a very strong global player years before that actually happened, which was in no small part due to being a founding member of *A, which also would have looked very different since there would have been less incentive for A++ to come about as well had UA and PA merged. Purely speculative since this a "what if" thread.
2020: AMS | ATL | BRU | DAL | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUA | IAH | LAX | LIM | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SAL | SCL | SFO | TPA | TXL
 
UA857
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:39 am

ua900 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
If UA had decided to merge with PA back in 1991 what would their fleet, hubs, and network look like? Assuming that UA already had the 744/752/762/763 in their fleet at the time would they have kept PA´s 741/742/A300/A310 fleet or would they dispose of them like after the merger. But what about hubs, considering the fact that UA would have got the PA Worldport at JFK would they have overtaken AA in being the largest carrier at JFK? I could have seen UA use the ex-PA hub at JFK for O&D and IAD for feed.


Here's my two cents given where UA was that the time having bought the Pacific Routes from Pan Am just a few years before. If UA had merged with PA in 1990/1, it would have been mostly a UA fleet, but with a much stronger presence at JFK and MIA than UA ever had in reality. That move would have weakened ORD and IAD, plus EWR and the CO merger would have likely not happend later on, and the temporary alliance with US Airways as part of *A would have likely never happened.

UA would have been a very strong global player years before that actually happened, which was in no small part due to being a founding member of *A, which also would have looked very different since there would have been less incentive for A++ to come about as well had UA and PA merged. Purely speculative since this a "what if" thread.


Wouldn´t ORD still be the main hub and JFK be used for O&D and IAD be used for connections?
 
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ua900
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:57 pm

UA857 wrote:
ua900 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
If UA had decided to merge with PA back in 1991 what would their fleet, hubs, and network look like? Assuming that UA already had the 744/752/762/763 in their fleet at the time would they have kept PA´s 741/742/A300/A310 fleet or would they dispose of them like after the merger. But what about hubs, considering the fact that UA would have got the PA Worldport at JFK would they have overtaken AA in being the largest carrier at JFK? I could have seen UA use the ex-PA hub at JFK for O&D and IAD for feed.


Here's my two cents given where UA was that the time having bought the Pacific Routes from Pan Am just a few years before. If UA had merged with PA in 1990/1, it would have been mostly a UA fleet, but with a much stronger presence at JFK and MIA than UA ever had in reality. That move would have weakened ORD and IAD, plus EWR and the CO merger would have likely not happend later on, and the temporary alliance with US Airways as part of *A would have likely never happened.

UA would have been a very strong global player years before that actually happened, which was in no small part due to being a founding member of *A, which also would have looked very different since there would have been less incentive for A++ to come about as well had UA and PA merged. Purely speculative since this a "what if" thread.


Wouldn´t ORD still be the main hub and JFK be used for O&D and IAD be used for connections?


Domestically ORD as "United's Hometown" would have still played a good size role in the network, same as IAD, but I think it would look more like the DEN hub with a focus on nearby secondary and tertiary destinations, in addition to hub-to-hub connections. International routes would be a different story though.

Speaking to the "hypothetical" 1990s/2000s under that fantasy scenario, IMO we would not have seen UAs subsequent "Capital-to-Capital" build up at IAD the way it happened, but more reliance on JFK for TATL routes. And I'm sure that would have hurt ORD 763/744 routes for TATL as well. Routes like ORD-HKG would have still gone ahead, but IMO we would have seen widebodies on the p.s. routes to JFK to feed TATL in addition to the regular p.s. traffic, which would have never moved to EWR. JFK would have retained the old UA int'l routes as a part of a JFK hub for UA rather than becoming this unloved p.s. spoke that it became for UA down the line in the last couple of years of JFK p.s. service. If used as a feeder for p.s. to TATL and vice versa, JFK could have become a much nicer transfer point than ORD for funneling TATL traffic.

Let's remember that JFK transfers *can* be nice even today *provided* you're on the right carrier and many international carriers like LH still have a great transfer experience at JFK even though in theory they should all reserve that for EWR given UAs super fortress hub there. In that parallel universe, the portions of JFK used by UA / *A could have been modernized and become to UA what EWR is today, quite a boon for JFK in that world.
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UA857
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:01 am

ua900 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
ua900 wrote:

Here's my two cents given where UA was that the time having bought the Pacific Routes from Pan Am just a few years before. If UA had merged with PA in 1990/1, it would have been mostly a UA fleet, but with a much stronger presence at JFK and MIA than UA ever had in reality. That move would have weakened ORD and IAD, plus EWR and the CO merger would have likely not happend later on, and the temporary alliance with US Airways as part of *A would have likely never happened.

UA would have been a very strong global player years before that actually happened, which was in no small part due to being a founding member of *A, which also would have looked very different since there would have been less incentive for A++ to come about as well had UA and PA merged. Purely speculative since this a "what if" thread.


Wouldn´t ORD still be the main hub and JFK be used for O&D and IAD be used for connections?


Domestically ORD as "United's Hometown" would have still played a good size role in the network, same as IAD, but I think it would look more like the DEN hub with a focus on nearby secondary and tertiary destinations, in addition to hub-to-hub connections. International routes would be a different story though.

Speaking to the "hypothetical" 1990s/2000s under that fantasy scenario, IMO we would not have seen UAs subsequent "Capital-to-Capital" build up at IAD the way it happened, but more reliance on JFK for TATL routes. And I'm sure that would have hurt ORD 763/744 routes for TATL as well. Routes like ORD-HKG would have still gone ahead, but IMO we would have seen widebodies on the p.s. routes to JFK to feed TATL in addition to the regular p.s. traffic, which would have never moved to EWR. JFK would have retained the old UA int'l routes as a part of a JFK hub for UA rather than becoming this unloved p.s. spoke that it became for UA down the line in the last couple of years of JFK p.s. service. If used as a feeder for p.s. to TATL and vice versa, JFK could have become a much nicer transfer point than ORD for funneling TATL traffic.

Let's remember that JFK transfers *can* be nice even today *provided* you're on the right carrier and many international carriers like LH still have a great transfer experience at JFK even though in theory they should all reserve that for EWR given UAs super fortress hub there. In that parallel universe, the portions of JFK used by UA / *A could have been modernized and become to UA what EWR is today, quite a boon for JFK in that world.


Isn't UA flying widebodies on the p.s. routes I see that UA is flying 763s between JFK-SFO/LAX and a mix between 763/777/787 on EWR-SFO/LAX.
 
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:14 am

UA857 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
US857, one question in this monumentally silly exercise: were you around then? PAA was dumpster fire for years. I had friends that were briefly there, post-EAL. They laughed, “we had some good years, the PAA guys were wearing the sunglasses from when they left the Navy 25 years before”. Guys were at the bottom of the list with 25 years of service, planes were from the Trippe era. They weren’t merging with anyone, liquidation was too good.

There was not one chance in a quadrillion that DL was buying or merging with EAL. I was on the EA MEC, It. Would. Not. Happen. DL management hired zero EA pilots. One that did get get on the property, when they asked where he got his FE ticket was promptly fired on the spot, in Indoc. The DL MEC asked mgt there to look at
EAL crews-the door was thrown in their face.


No I was around back then, but wouldn´t DL acquire EA´s JFK hub if UA had merged with PA as UA would gain NYC presence and DL would end up with none.


Why would DL need a JFK hub? They did buy PAA’s A310s and some rights to EU, but they didn’t need to buy anything from EA. Even if they wanted to expand in NYC, they’d just buy planes and hire crews. DL hated EA and wanted nothing to do with us—rightly so.

I represented an EA guy who got a job offer from DL. When he quit EA, showed up at DL and told them he got his FE ticket at EA, they rescinded the offer and he was back at EA trying to get his job back. Too late, in the event.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:58 am

DL got PA's TATL operation but UA got their TPAC and Latin divisions. There is probably just as much PA heritage in UA as there is in DL.
 
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ua900
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Re: If UA had merged with PA...

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:10 am

UA857 wrote:
ua900 wrote:
UA857 wrote:

Wouldn´t ORD still be the main hub and JFK be used for O&D and IAD be used for connections?


Domestically ORD as "United's Hometown" would have still played a good size role in the network, same as IAD, but I think it would look more like the DEN hub with a focus on nearby secondary and tertiary destinations, in addition to hub-to-hub connections. International routes would be a different story though.

Speaking to the "hypothetical" 1990s/2000s under that fantasy scenario, IMO we would not have seen UAs subsequent "Capital-to-Capital" build up at IAD the way it happened, but more reliance on JFK for TATL routes. And I'm sure that would have hurt ORD 763/744 routes for TATL as well. Routes like ORD-HKG would have still gone ahead, but IMO we would have seen widebodies on the p.s. routes to JFK to feed TATL in addition to the regular p.s. traffic, which would have never moved to EWR. JFK would have retained the old UA int'l routes as a part of a JFK hub for UA rather than becoming this unloved p.s. spoke that it became for UA down the line in the last couple of years of JFK p.s. service. If used as a feeder for p.s. to TATL and vice versa, JFK could have become a much nicer transfer point than ORD for funneling TATL traffic.

Let's remember that JFK transfers *can* be nice even today *provided* you're on the right carrier and many international carriers like LH still have a great transfer experience at JFK even though in theory they should all reserve that for EWR given UAs super fortress hub there. In that parallel universe, the portions of JFK used by UA / *A could have been modernized and become to UA what EWR is today, quite a boon for JFK in that world.


Isn't UA flying widebodies on the p.s. routes I see that UA is flying 763s between JFK-SFO/LAX and a mix between 763/777/787 on EWR-SFO/LAX.


Sure they are widebodies on the p.s. routes, to EWR, post CO-merger, once p.s. became a two class product, once they had to funnel TATL traffic through EWR and faced a severe 752 shortage. But when did that start, 2015?

In this parallel universe with JFK being this big UA hub as a result of the PA merger in 1991, they would have had widebody p.s. service starting in say 1991/1992, not 2015, almost a quarter of a century before that actually happened in the NYC area.

usflyer msp wrote:
DL got PA's TATL operation but UA got their TPAC and Latin divisions. There is probably just as much PA heritage in UA as there is in DL.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Absolutely right. In hindsight it's downright amazing how limited DL and UA international route networks were prior to those purchases. And I still meet very senior Pan Am F/As on my flights...
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