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rj777
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Will WN join an Alliance?

Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:53 pm

Nobody ever thought that AS would join an Alliance.... but since that has happened, will WN eventually join one? And if so, which one- Star or SkyTeam?
Last edited by atcsundevil on Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:06 am

Jeez... WN doesn't even interline.
 
RJNUT
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:09 am

Pilots run that airline . NOPE!
 
DLPMMM
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:42 am

Why would WN want to or need to?

They have nationwide coverage and economies of scale including HI.

They have shorter distance international flights that they can feed themselves.

They have no impetus to feed other airlines as the cost to inter line across their system would likely overshadow the marginal profit.

The additional cost to make their data infrastructure compatible with a major alliance would also be exorbitant....especially given their current system.
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:52 am

I don't think it would be in their best interest. Since their frequent flier program runs on points how would a member turn those points into a reward flight on a partner airline. Maybe they would consider code share flights for long haul international flights. However, I would not hold my breath.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:02 am

There will come a point when an ageing IT infrastructure has to be updated, simply because competitors can make better use of the data they hold about customers. It'll cost WN serious amounts of money, but it will become a necessity. Companies that rely forever on dinosaur era technology eventually themselves become dinosaurs, however good the intention

Additionally, traditional airlines within alliances are likely to get better at integrating their networks and schedules together and thus be able to squeeze more profit out of passengers. WN will not want to, but some sort of codeshares with non-US major international long haul carriers at places like LAX may eventually also become a necessity

I'm not saying WN will join an alliance any time soon, but it's difficult to remain completely independent forever
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:07 am

I thought they interlined with WestJet?
 
Wneast
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:08 am

I could see them doing international codeshares but I’m not sure if or ever will they join a alliance though
 
spartanmjf
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:25 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
There will come a point when an ageing IT infrastructure has to be updated, simply because competitors can make better use of the data they hold about customers. It'll cost WN serious amounts of money, but it will become a necessity. Companies that rely forever on dinosaur era technology eventually themselves become dinosaurs, however good the intention


Southwest runs on Amadeus Altea, no?
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
Runway765
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:56 am

DLPMMM wrote:
Why would WN want to or need to?

They have nationwide coverage and economies of scale including HI.

They have shorter distance international flights that they can feed themselves.

They have no impetus to feed other airlines as the cost to inter line across their system would likely overshadow the marginal profit.

The additional cost to make their data infrastructure compatible with a major alliance would also be exorbitant....especially given their current system.


They don’t need an alliance, but they WILL need to codeshare/interline at some point. Airlines are global these days, and WN is no longer a niche US carrier, but a large carrier with (at least from a mainline perspective) parity with the US3. They will never fly to Europe and Asia unless they acquire widebodies, so they’ll need to codeshare with European/Asian long haul airlines to reach there.
 
737max8
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:02 am

1. WN has updated it's technology big time over the last few years.

2. I don't see an alliance but could see codeshare with intl partners to move pax around the country before/after longhaul. Pilots won't want to share any route WN can reach with it's A/C
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:03 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I thought they interlined with WestJet?


The idea was entertained in the 2000’s but as Westjet kept moving away from the LCC carrier model, that relationship never came to fruition.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:21 am

cirrusdragoon wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I thought they interlined with WestJet?


The idea was entertained in the 2000’s but as Westjet kept moving away from the LCC carrier model, that relationship never came to fruition.


True, and nowadays WestJet is a Delta partner airline.

This shows that Southwest will only cooperate with airlines that think along the same lines as they do, offer the same amenities, etc. However Southwest is too much of an outlier, nothing similar exists outside the USA. Therefor there is nothing for them to cooperate with.

They'll be fine focusing solely on the American market, having no business outside the USA. Therefor there's no need for them to join any alliance.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:58 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I thought they interlined with WestJet?


The idea was entertained in the 2000’s but as Westjet kept moving away from the LCC carrier model, that relationship never came to fruition.


True, and nowadays WestJet is a Delta partner airline.

This shows that Southwest will only cooperate with airlines that think along the same lines as they do, offer the same amenities, etc. However Southwest is too much of an outlier, nothing similar exists outside the USA. Therefor there is nothing for them to cooperate with.

They'll be fine focusing solely on the American market, having no business outside the USA. Therefor there's no need for them to join any alliance.


So the Caribbean, Cuba, Central America, Mexico are business inside the US? Thats a leap!
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:29 pm

RJNUT wrote:
Pilots run that airline . NOPE!

The truest statement ever. To date SWAPA has stonewalled every proposed codeshare.
Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
AC4500
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:03 pm

Runway765 wrote:

They don’t need an alliance, but they WILL need to codeshare/interline at some point. Airlines are global these days, and WN is no longer a niche US carrier, but a large carrier with (at least from a mainline perspective) parity with the US3. They will never fly to Europe and Asia unless they acquire widebodies, so they’ll need to codeshare with European/Asian long haul airlines to reach there.

As unlikely as it may be to actually happen, they could technically get to Europe with the MAX-8.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:18 pm

In my over 20 years on this site, I have been told that WN will never:

1) Fly anything other than one size of 737
2) Fly internationally
3) Fly to Hawaii
4) Vary from first-come-first-serve boarding order

There are things that are central to WN's culture and identity, but one thing about running a business is that you need to be ready to slaughter your sacred cows.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Runway765
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:19 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
Pilots run that airline . NOPE!

The truest statement ever. To date SWAPA has stonewalled every proposed codeshare.
Flyguy


I think they’d approve codeshare with long haul airlines with Europe/Asia, where WN will most likely never fly. They ought to do that as soon as international travel rebounds.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:29 pm

I doubt it, but I could see but would still be surprised, is some sort of code sharing with DL along the West Coast and NE corridor in response to AA's tie ups with B6 and AS.
 
n9801f
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:35 pm

This post first appeared on April 1 and at first I thought it was a joke.

Since all three global alliances already have a major US partner, Southwest might need to create a new, fourth alliance.

With fellow founding member Air Transat, maybe they could create the SWAT Team.
 
737tanker
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:31 am

Runway765 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
Pilots run that airline . NOPE!

The truest statement ever. To date SWAPA has stonewalled every proposed codeshare.
Flyguy


I think they’d approve codeshare with long haul airlines with Europe/Asia, where WN will most likely never fly. They ought to do that as soon as international travel rebounds.

This type of codeshare has been in the Pilot’s contract since 2016 WN has just never taken advantage of it.
 
Lootess
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:17 pm

Alaska was never a real LCC, always had first class, lounges, and catered to west coast business better than anyone, they always had the model to be alliance aligned. As was seen having an allied relationship with Delta/Northwest for over 20 years.

Southwest tried with WestJet but they ultimately went with Delta when they created the LGA hub and was able to get them in there.

None of the alliances make any sense for Southwest, that'd mean aligning to another US partner, and they don't even interline today so that's another issue they'd have get beyond.
 
Runway765
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:51 pm

737tanker wrote:
Runway765 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
The truest statement ever. To date SWAPA has stonewalled every proposed codeshare.
Flyguy


I think they’d approve codeshare with long haul airlines with Europe/Asia, where WN will most likely never fly. They ought to do that as soon as international travel rebounds.

This type of codeshare has been in the Pilot’s contract since 2016 WN has just never taken advantage of it.


And post-pandemic when international flying resumes would be the perfect time to implement long haul codesharing. WN could do some serious damage to the US3 if they did that.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:22 pm

When your home market is 350 million people and the largest aircraft you operate is a 737 you don't need to codeshare or join an alliance. This is also an airline that wont display their fares on OTA sites.
 
n9801f
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:51 am

Runway765 wrote:
And post-pandemic when international flying resumes would be the perfect time to implement long haul codesharing. WN could do some serious damage to the US3 if they did that.

Just how would this work?

Southwest's major airports have little international service and few international carriers.

OAK to Asia? HOU to South America? MDW to Europe? No such services exist. Does DAL even have customs?

Please explain.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:28 pm

LAX in Los Angeles has significant international service
 
n9801f
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:28 pm

Sure, but almost all the long-haulers there are in global alliances instead.

I suppose SWA could code share with Philippine or Air Tahiti.

Though doing so would hardly do the "serious damage" to the US3 that Runway765 suggests.

Runway765, can you explain how your idea works?
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:37 pm

Easyjet in Europe under their "Worldwide by Easyjet" brand seem to manage to co-operate with the likes of Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines.
https://worldwide.easyjet.com/
 
n9801f
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:29 am

Yes, true. Though at LON, the ratio of unaffiliated long-haulers (many!) to available traditional short haul feeders (just BA, and it's already taken) is totally different than at LAX.

I'm disappointed we haven't heard more from Runway765 about how this idea could be so big that it would impact the US3. To me, the network fit seems marginal besides LAX and there are limited available long-haul partners. (Though PR-WN could certainly corner the MNL-LAX-ELP market!).

But Runway765 seems to be busy. On another thread today they suggested DL reduce MSP to fund West Coast growth.

Show us some love, Runway765! We're eager to hear what you have in mind.
 
jplatts
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:56 am

n9801f wrote:
Does DAL even have customs?


The City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, AA, WN, and the DFW International Airport Board all agreed to limit nonstop international passenger air service in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex to DFW in the agreement negotiated by these parties in June 2006. The Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 also prohibits nonstop international commercial passenger service out of DAL.

DAL also does not have any gates that could accommodate international arrivals and there isn't currently an international arrivals facility at the passenger terminal at DAL. Opening DAL to nonstop international flights would require the construction of an FIS and retrofitting a few gates at DAL to connect to the FIS. Opening DAL to nonstop international flights would also likely limit the amount of domestic flights that could be accommodated at DAL and would likely limit the City of Dallas's ability to accommodate domestic competitors such as DL and AS at DAL.

Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, there was also enough demand for nonstop service out of DAL to most of the destinations that were served nonstop out of DAL on WN, DL, and AS with DAL-originating traffic, DAL-destination traffic, and domestic connecting-through traffic.

It probably makes sense to keep DAL as a domestic-only airport, even if the 5-party agreement and WARA are changed to allow nonstop international flights out of DAL, since
(a) opening DAL up to nonstop international flights would likely require retrofitting the existing passenger terminal, including construction of an international arrivals facility,
(b) the current passenger terminal at DAL was designed as a domestic-only passenger terminal, and
(c) enough demand was there for most of the WN, DL, and AS flights out of DAL without any nonstop international flights out of DAL prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.
 
Wneast
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:00 am

jplatts wrote:
n9801f wrote:
Does DAL even have customs?


The City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, AA, WN, and the DFW International Airport Board all agreed to limit nonstop international passenger air service in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex to DFW in the agreement negotiated by these parties in June 2006. The Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 also prohibits nonstop international commercial passenger service out of DAL.

DAL also does not have any gates that could accommodate international arrivals and there isn't currently an international arrivals facility at the passenger terminal at DAL. Opening DAL to nonstop international flights would require the construction of an FIS and retrofitting a few gates at DAL to connect to the FIS. Opening DAL to nonstop international flights would also likely limit the amount of domestic flights that could be accommodated at DAL and would likely limit the City of Dallas's ability to accommodate domestic competitors such as DL and AS at DAL.

Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, there was also enough demand for nonstop service out of DAL to most of the destinations that were served nonstop out of DAL on WN, DL, and AS with DAL-originating traffic, DAL-destination traffic, and domestic connecting-through traffic.

It probably makes sense to keep DAL as a domestic-only airport, even if the 5-party agreement and WARA are changed to allow nonstop international flights out of DAL, since
(a) opening DAL up to nonstop international flights would likely require retrofitting the existing passenger terminal, including construction of an international arrivals facility,
(b) the current passenger terminal at DAL was designed as a domestic-only passenger terminal, and
(c) enough demand was there for most of the WN, DL, and AS flights out of DAL without any nonstop international flights out of DAL prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

I think in 2025 WN talked about building a international terminal there and adding more gates because then they won’t have any limits then, they could add DFW but I’m sure they would like to grow DAL more likely
 
jplatts
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:20 am

n9801f wrote:
MDW to Europe?


The 737 MAX 7's successor will likely have enough range for routes such as ANC-PKX/FUK/NGO/KIX/ICN/NRT, HNL-NGO/KIX/NRT, HNL-AUS/DAL/GUM/HOU/MCI/STL, STL-DUB/HNL/OGG/LGW, MDW-AMS/BRU/DUB/LIS/LGW/MAD/OSL/CDG, and BWI-AMS/BCN/BER/BRU/DUB/FRA/LIS/LGW/MAD/MXP/OSL/CDG/BMA.

I am unsure if MDW's runway is long enough to accommodate TATL flights on a 737 MAX successor, even if the 737 MAX successor has enough range for TATL flights to Europe from CHI.

WN will have additional expansion opportunities to both Europe and Hawaii if the 737 MAX's successor has enough range for HI-TX/MO/GU, STL-HI/Ireland/UK, and BWI-Europe nonstop service.
 
n9801f
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Re: Non-April Fools: Will WN join an Alliance?

Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:37 am

jplatts wrote:
n9801f wrote:
Does DAL even have customs?

The City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, AA, WN, and the DFW International Airport Board all agreed to limit nonstop international passenger air service in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex to DFW in the agreement negotiated by these parties in June 2006. The Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 also prohibits nonstop international commercial passenger service out of DAL.

Thank you for this helpful and authoritative answer.

I thought this was the case but now am sure.


jplatts wrote:
n9801f wrote:
MDW to Europe?

I am unsure if MDW's runway is long enough to accommodate TATL flights on a 737 MAX successor, even if the 737 MAX successor has enough range for TATL flights to Europe from CHI.

Again, thank you!

I was having a hard time imagining any aircraft (MAX, 757, 321) operating MDW-Europe nonstop without serious payload limitations, though I defer to more qualified opinions.


jplatts wrote:
WN will have additional expansion opportunities to both Europe and Hawaii if the 737 MAX's successor has enough range for HI-TX/MO/GU, STL-HI/Ireland/UK, and BWI-Europe nonstop service.

This is the bottom line, so far as I can see. Though I’d welcome a different view if you have one.

SWA has new online international route possibilities. This could affect its appetite for international code shares, especially complicated or small ones.
 
asteriskceo
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:45 am

I don’t see it working. Assigned seating connecting to open seating and vice versa. Too confusing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
asteriskceo
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Will WN join an Alliance?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:45 am

Duplicate
 
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Veigar
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:13 pm

Didn’t WN partner with ATA at some point? What was that about?
 
jplatts
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:37 pm

Veigar wrote:
Didn’t WN partner with ATA at some point? What was that about?


The WN-TZ partnership was about connections to markets that weren't served by WN at the time of the WN-TZ partnership. In addition, WN was offering connections onto WN flights out of MDW to some WN destinations in the Eastern U.S. from TZ's DFW-MDW flights back when DAL was restricted by the Wright Amendment.

The need for WN to have a partnership with an airline such as TZ is no longer there with
  • The repeal of the Wright Amendment restrictions at DAL
  • WN entering additional destinations such as ATL, CLT, DSM, GRR, MEM, PNS, PWM, RIC, ROC, DCA, and ICT through the WN-FL merger
  • WN now serving HNL, OGG, KOA, LIH, and ITO in Hawaii
  • WN now serving some international destinations in Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Will WN join an Alliance?

Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:50 pm

eta unknown wrote:
When your home market is 350 million people and the largest aircraft you operate is a 737 you don't need to codeshare or join an alliance. This is also an airline that wont display their fares on OTA sites.


THIS, that don’t need to codeshare, JV, or be in an alliance. Probably the most consistently profitable airline, with a domestic market of 350 million, why bother?

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