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Sacha350XWB
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Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:47 am

Earlier this week, Latam announced its decision to retire its entire A350 fleet, the equivalent of 11 aircraft. The question is what will happen to these planes? Since these aircraft are young and very efficient, they should have no trouble finding a buyer. Nevertheless, the current context makes this situation rather complex.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:14 pm

How about Delta take over all of them?
Another possibility is QR
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:46 pm

Under U.S. Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings, once the court accepts LATAM's motion to terminate leases or return aircraft to lenders, LATAM is done. It's up to the aircraft owners to decide. If there are multiple owners it makes an 'all of them' deal much harder to achieve.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:55 pm

Whoever pays the most. AFAIK, 9 of the 11 belong to Aercap. They could end up pretty much anywhere, in an entire batch or split across 11 different operators. The market for long haul aircraft is global.
 
tphuang
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:02 pm

When these questions get asked, why do people only speculate us3 as possibilities?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:10 pm

The A350s go and the 767s and 777s live on in the LATAM Brasil fleet. Since the merger Latam Brasil has replaced both the A330s and now A350s
 
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Revelation
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:19 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Whoever pays the most. AFAIK, 9 of the 11 belong to Aercap. They could end up pretty much anywhere, in an entire batch or split across 11 different operators. The market for long haul aircraft is global.

Right, yet airlines try to avoid lots of different seating configurations in their fleet and reconfiguration can be expensive, so there is some incentive for batch deals.

In this era of over production, these may sit for quite a while.

There are far more sellers (including Airbus itself) than there are buyers.
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VSMUT
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Whoever pays the most. AFAIK, 9 of the 11 belong to Aercap. They could end up pretty much anywhere, in an entire batch or split across 11 different operators. The market for long haul aircraft is global.

Right, yet airlines try to avoid lots of different seating configurations in their fleet and reconfiguration can be expensive, so there is some incentive for batch deals.

In this era of over production, these may sit for quite a while.

There are far more sellers (including Airbus itself) than there are buyers.


You are exaggerating. There are plenty of airlines with many different seating configurations. 4 of these flew for Qatar on a sublease until just recently (who have 2 different configs on their own A350-900 fleet). SAS had a single ex-LAN A340 that they kept for ages without changing the interior. Ethiopian has 2 different seating configs on its A350 and 787 fleets. There were the ex-Singapore 777s floating around all over the place as temporary RR 787 interim replacements.

That they will be parked for a while is a given, but suggesting here and now that they will all go to one airline/Delta or that seat configuration will have anything to do with it is ridiculous right now. They could go literally anywhere, from that Pragusa startup to existing carriers to something that doesn't even exist yet or even all 3.
 
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:59 pm

I’m not optimistic that these planes will quickly find new homes. The six former Hong Kong Airlines A350s that were retired/stored/returned to lessors back in 2019 still remain in storage.
 
transaeroyyz
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:59 pm

Cmon AC Rouge :D
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:03 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Revelation wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Whoever pays the most. AFAIK, 9 of the 11 belong to Aercap. They could end up pretty much anywhere, in an entire batch or split across 11 different operators. The market for long haul aircraft is global.

Right, yet airlines try to avoid lots of different seating configurations in their fleet and reconfiguration can be expensive, so there is some incentive for batch deals.

In this era of over production, these may sit for quite a while.

There are far more sellers (including Airbus itself) than there are buyers.


You are exaggerating. There are plenty of airlines with many different seating configurations. 4 of these flew for Qatar on a sublease until just recently (who have 2 different configs on their own A350-900 fleet). SAS had a single ex-LAN A340 that they kept for ages without changing the interior. Ethiopian has 2 different seating configs on its A350 and 787 fleets. There were the ex-Singapore 777s floating around all over the place as temporary RR 787 interim replacements.

That they will be parked for a while is a given, but suggesting here and now that they will all go to one airline/Delta or that seat configuration will have anything to do with it is ridiculous right now. They could go literally anywhere, from that Pragusa startup to existing carriers to something that doesn't even exist yet or even all 3.


It goes behind seating configuration. Airplanes have a significant number of options. It costs quite a bit of money to reconfigure interiors (for example delta has a mid cabin galley but Latam doesn’t) as well as other standardize flight deck configurations. It’s a lot cheaper to bundle reconfiguration costs, especially when it comes to interiors, weights, avionics and flight deck configuration. Assembling a fleet from used airplanes from multiple different airlines costs a lot of money. A group purchase can save millions.
 
CWL757
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:20 pm

How about BA? They already have A350 commonality thanks to the A350-1000, Could the 900s start replacing the 772s?
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:25 pm

The first airline that came to mind was Turkish Airlines, as they are already a A350 operator and have quite some experience with aquiriring second hand wide bodies (A330-200s and -300s in different cabin configurations and engine types, and even three ex-Kenya Airways 777-300ERs). They can use them to replace some older A330s and/or 777s.

But as Weatherwatcher1 already pointed out there are also some brand (or barely) new A350s waiting for new customers since 2019, so it remains to be seen how long it will take for these birds to find new homes.
 
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:26 pm

CWL757 wrote:
How about BA? They already have A350 commonality thanks to the A350-1000, Could the 900s start replacing the 772s?

I don’t see it personally. Not for BA no. Iberia maybe
Most of the 772s will be up gauge replacements. Given what we’ve already seen. 3 772s were replaced with 4 brand new 77Ws and 4 77Es replaced with 4 779s
 
eidvm
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:00 pm

IAG an option perhaps, for IB, BA and Aer Lingus, IB and BA already have the type in their fleets, BA the -1000 and Aer Lingus had previously expected to receive the A350 but instead switched orders with Iberia for their A330 orders due to the reduced capital costs of the A330 over the A350 and the minimal fuel burn differences over the shorter average stage lengths vs IB. Perhaps with the capital costs now so low, now could be the time for IAG to acquire some cheap frames and have EI make the switch to A350.
 
tvh
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:02 pm

how about a reincarnation of LATAM
 
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Polot
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:21 pm

tvh wrote:
how about a reincarnation of LATAM

LATAM isn’t going away. They are just removing the A350s from their fleet in favor of the 767/787/77W.
 
EdmFlyBoi
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:46 pm

transaeroyyz wrote:
Cmon AC Rouge :D


Ha ha no chance.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:04 pm

This would be an excellent opportunity for JAL to replace their remaining 77Es and some older 767s.
First to fly the 787-9
 
AngelsDecay
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:20 pm

Portuguese and/or Maltese HiFly
Last edited by AngelsDecay on Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:21 pm

 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:22 pm

FLJ wrote:
The first airline that came to mind was Turkish Airlines, as they are already a A350 operator and have quite some experience with aquiriring second hand wide bodies (A330-200s and -300s in different cabin configurations and engine types, and even three ex-Kenya Airways 777-300ERs). They can use them to replace some older A330s and/or 777s.

But as Weatherwatcher1 already pointed out there are also some brand (or barely) new A350s waiting for new customers since 2019, so it remains to be seen how long it will take for these birds to find new homes.


Turkish did get A330s from TAM in 2014 when LAN moved the 767s to TAM shortly after the merger. However Turkish has plenty of 787s and A350s on order.
 
AngelsDecay
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:26 pm

Or maybe the new Eastern Europe startup»»»

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1458495
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:33 pm

What about OS? There's talk about them getting new widebodies, some speculate that they may go for A350s...
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:39 pm

eidvm wrote:
IAG an option perhaps, for IB, BA and Aer Lingus, IB and BA already have the type in their fleets, BA the -1000 and Aer Lingus had previously expected to receive the A350 but instead switched orders with Iberia for their A330 orders due to the reduced capital costs of the A330 over the A350 and the minimal fuel burn differences over the shorter average stage lengths vs IB. Perhaps with the capital costs now so low, now could be the time for IAG to acquire some cheap frames and have EI make the switch to A350.


Would be nice to replace Aer Lingus's A330's. Doubt it will happen.
 
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:40 pm

zkojq wrote:
This would be an excellent opportunity for JAL to replace their remaining 77Es and some older 767s.


Replacing a 767 with an a359 would be insane even without a pandemic. It's a perfect replacement to the 77E, but far too large to replace a 767.
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DL220MSP
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:42 pm

UWPAviation wrote:
eidvm wrote:
IAG an option perhaps, for IB, BA and Aer Lingus, IB and BA already have the type in their fleets, BA the -1000 and Aer Lingus had previously expected to receive the A350 but instead switched orders with Iberia for their A330 orders due to the reduced capital costs of the A330 over the A350 and the minimal fuel burn differences over the shorter average stage lengths vs IB. Perhaps with the capital costs now so low, now could be the time for IAG to acquire some cheap frames and have EI make the switch to A350.


Would be nice to replace Aer Lingus's A330's. Doubt it will happen.


They still have 5 on order after shifting 4 to IB.
 
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:43 pm

UWPAviation wrote:
eidvm wrote:
IAG an option perhaps, for IB, BA and Aer Lingus, IB and BA already have the type in their fleets, BA the -1000 and Aer Lingus had previously expected to receive the A350 but instead switched orders with Iberia for their A330 orders due to the reduced capital costs of the A330 over the A350 and the minimal fuel burn differences over the shorter average stage lengths vs IB. Perhaps with the capital costs now so low, now could be the time for IAG to acquire some cheap frames and have EI make the switch to A350.


Would be nice to replace Aer Lingus's A330's. Doubt it will happen.


EI already elected to not take part of their a350 order (it went to IB). I don't see them taking the rest.

EI will continue with their a330s for the foreseeable future and grow with the a321XLR in my opinion.
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RvA
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:40 pm

Didn’t LH want some more A350s quickly?
 
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:44 pm

zkojq wrote:
This would be an excellent opportunity for JAL to replace their remaining 77Es and some older 767s.


My thought as well. Maybe LHG in a few years time to modernize and harmonize its fleet. If they are really cheap AFKL might be interested. AF can take them an then transfer its B789 to KL, which in return can let go of its A330s. This would lead to a more harmonized and modern fleet. But this is just the crazy idea of an armchair CEO.
 
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:44 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

In late 2019 already, KLM decided to pass their A350 order for seven units on to AFR and to focus on the B787. Simplification within their longhaul-fleet was the main argument at that time. So, I don’t see any reason why they would change their mind now.
 
Antarius
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:54 pm

Capricorn wrote:
zkojq wrote:
This would be an excellent opportunity for JAL to replace their remaining 77Es and some older 767s.


My thought as well. Maybe LHG in a few years time to modernize and harmonize its fleet. If they are really cheap AFKL might be interested. AF can take them an then transfer its B789 to KL, which in return can let go of its A330s. This would lead to a more harmonized and modern fleet. But this is just the crazy idea of an armchair CEO.


Air France-KLM CEO Benjamin Smith, speaking at Air France-KLM’s investor day presentation, stated Air France will retain its current fleet of Boeing 787-9 aircraft as it provides “good leverage” in negotiations with Airbus for the replacement of A330-200s and earlier model 777s and allows it to “continue to be able to select either Airbus or Boeing”. He said it gives the carrier “a lot of flexibility” as it can later decide whether to transfer the aircraft to KLM Royal Dutch Airlines or put them out on the market if it decides to exit them from the Air France fleet.

AF likely will keep them for the near to mid term future. Until they decide on a smaller widebody (a339 vs 787) for the rest of the fleet, they likely will have them around.
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:45 am

Antarius wrote:
zkojq wrote:
This would be an excellent opportunity for JAL to replace their remaining 77Es and some older 767s.


Replacing a 767 with an a359 would be insane even without a pandemic. It's a perfect replacement to the 77E, but far too large to replace a 767.


You might or might not be aware that JAL has a substantial fleet of 787-8s and many 787-9s too. 767-300 flying gets replaced with a 787-8, some 787-8 flying gets upgauged to a 787-9, some 787-9 flying gets upgauged to an A350-900 and so on. Plenty of scope to optimize capacity between those fleet types.

Would make for a very efficient fleet.
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tvh
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:20 am

Polot wrote:
tvh wrote:
how about a reincarnation of LATAM

LATAM isn’t going away. They are just removing the A350s from their fleet in favor of the 767/787/77W.


yes, I know that, but after a good reorganisation and the end of the corrona crisis, they may be in good shape again and have a need for them again. I better lease price would also help.
 
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Polot
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:37 am

tvh wrote:
Polot wrote:
tvh wrote:
how about a reincarnation of LATAM

LATAM isn’t going away. They are just removing the A350s from their fleet in favor of the 767/787/77W.


yes, I know that, but after a good reorganisation and the end of the corrona crisis, they may be in good shape again and have a need for them again. I better lease price would also help.

LATAM barely needed them to begin with-it was a legacy TAM decision. That is why they had a bunch leased out to QR, were going to sell 4 existing frames to DL, and had DL take over 10 new orders (all pre-Covid). There is really nothing that the A350s can do for LATAM that the 789s operated by the group can’t already do- it’s not like LATAM Brazil was pushing the planes to their max capabilities, especially since they have a handful of early lower MTOW frames.
 
hannah9898
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Re: Who will take over the A350s from Latam?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:59 am

chunhimlai wrote:
How about Delta take over all of them?
Another possibility is QR

Other is possibly AY.

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