Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
metalinyoni
Topic Author
Posts: 322
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:52 pm

'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 12:48 pm

The title is referencing a quote in this topic https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1461119 Reply #18

I'm not disagreeing with the quote at all but it got me wondering whether this would breathe new life into the remaining A380's. Arguably BA's schedule across the Atlantic was to cater for the business community's need for frequency. If the demand for frequency drops in the near term could it be in BA's interest to fly less frequencies? Could Emirates operate fewer B777 flights (and maybe this is one of the reasons STC is getting snotty over the B777X) and run more A380's for the price conscious leisure traveller?

Arguably the A380 is dead in the current market but if the leisure market recovers to pre pandemic levels and corporate travel doesn't possibly there is space for the A380. Maybe the A380 is due a mini renaissance.
300, 310, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 342, 343, 345, 346, 380, 707, 727, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 742, 74L, 743, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 772, 77L 773, 77W, D10, AT46, AT76, AT75, 142, DH3, ER4, AR1, AR8
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15191
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 1:01 pm

To how many of the cities to which it flew the 388 pre-pandemic did EK have multiple frequencies? To a large degree EK succeeds based on a large number of potential city pairs connecting over DXB. That’s not a frequency model in the same way that, say, JFK-LHR is but it’s still a model where it’s not necessarily easy to change the number of frames needed.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10821
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 1:07 pm

The A380 is out of production, how many more years will the spare parts be available at an economic cost? Please let's not add the 757 to the discussion which sold many more copies than the A380.
That is the key to any A380 renaissance, unless Airbus decides to resume production, the number of frames available will go down and down as more and more frames are used for spare parts.
 
Murdoughnut
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:27 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 1:11 pm

It's not dead. In the U.S. it's down about 75% compared to 45% for all travel. That 75% is based on ARC data from corporate travel bookers, which is skewed towards large companies - which have been more likely to prohibit corporate travel than small and medium sized companies based on survey data I've collected. So corporate travel is probably down in the U.S. more like 65-70%.
 
User avatar
metalinyoni
Topic Author
Posts: 322
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:52 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 1:42 pm

par13del wrote:
The A380 is out of production, how many more years will the spare parts be available at an economic cost? Please let's not add the 757 to the discussion which sold many more copies than the A380.
That is the key to any A380 renaissance, unless Airbus decides to resume production, the number of frames available will go down and down as more and more frames are used for spare parts.


I wasn't suggesting restarting production which so many 757 threads seem to want. All I am suggesting is that there are A380's being sent to storage with a lot of life left in them. I was suggesting that there could be more of a future for these than originally thought.
300, 310, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 342, 343, 345, 346, 380, 707, 727, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 742, 74L, 743, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 772, 77L 773, 77W, D10, AT46, AT76, AT75, 142, DH3, ER4, AR1, AR8
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1105
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 1:48 pm

As distinct from "corporate airline contracts," how much is "corporate jet flying" down?

I heard private jet traffic is actually pretty strong. But corporations that own fleets must be using their fleet less than usual.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7841
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 2:31 pm

According to the NBAA, all corporate and private flying is nearly back to normal. Sales of used and new aircraft are strong, lots of interest from “concept” prospects.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10380
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 2:40 pm

Murdoughnut wrote:
It's not dead. In the U.S. it's down about 75% compared to 45% for all travel. That 75% is based on ARC data from corporate travel bookers, which is skewed towards large companies - which have been more likely to prohibit corporate travel than small and medium sized companies based on survey data I've collected. So corporate travel is probably down in the U.S. more like 65-70%.


It's important to distinguish between domestic vs. international corporate travel. Domestically in the U.S. I feel like it will rebound much sooner than international. I believe the context of this travel is about international travel.
 
schernov
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:41 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 4:25 pm

Just prior to pandemic I used to fly a lot out of ORD to EU.
Just on the ORD-LHR route there were:
AA two per day (777 and 787)
BA two per day (777 and 744/A380)
UA two per day (767/777/787 assortment)
J was always full or nearly full
PE was always full
Economy was very well packed on majority of the flights.
For frequent flyers connecting in LHR - A380 was preferred choice because it always got priority taxi in ORD and LHR to get it the hell out of the way :). So it had lower propensity of being late unless Swissport people could not operate the lonely double decker gate at ORD T5 - then it was hopelessly late.

It will be a while to get back to that. Right now AA/BA/UA do one flight a day and they are wide open. I am really surprised AA/BA dont take turns operating and consolidating flights - probably due to slots.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2521
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 4:30 pm

I'd say it is not so much the business travel demand that is lacking but it is more about the unclear and permanently changing travel restrictions and maybe about the fresh impression that travelling employees could be left stranded around the globe. So the more the practical concerns delay some renaissance for the time being. If borders are open and destinations "safe" again people will fly again from my point of view. I will at least.
 
TexasAirCorp
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:24 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 4:57 pm

That quote is from me! Just to add some context, it was from a discussion about short-haul flying in Europe, and whether European LCCs would see benefit from operating high-frequency services on business-orientated routes and targeting corporate passengers. I meant to say that short-haul corporate flying in Europe is dead, not necessarily corporate travel as a whole.

Is the cost-per-seat on an all-economy A380 cheaper than the cost-per-seat on an all-economy A330neo or similar? If someone knows the answer I'd love to know. If the CPS on the A380 is lower, then maybe the A380 does stand a chance, possibly for Hajj charters or some other high-volume long haul leisure market. Lion Air used to operate all-economy B747s on Hajj routes, and as far as I'm aware they did pretty well, and the only reason Lion got rid of them is because they wanted to compete with AirAsia X/Jetstar/Scoot on long-haul services with A330s, and it didn't make sense to operate two different long-haul aircraft types.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7841
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Noshow wrote:
I'd say it is not so much the business travel demand that is lacking but it is more about the unclear and permanently changing travel restrictions and maybe about the fresh impression that travelling employees could be left stranded around the globe. So the more the practical concerns delay some renaissance for the time being. If borders are open and destinations "safe" again people will fly again from my point of view. I will at least.


THIS, many times over. Planning a private jet international trip is a nightmare of changing rules, quarantines, etc. It should be simple, are the individuals vaccinated? Yes, welcome; no, start over again.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14415
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 5:45 pm

One consequence of the pandemic is that many industries realized their supply chains were fragile. This is still showing today, with construction materials being in short supply, for example. This should lead to diversification in supply chains. For that to happen, I would expect business travel to be needed.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 5:58 pm

The big divide is in Big public companies vs Small/Medium companies. It is becoming obvious large corporate leaders are more scared of the social media mob, than anything else. It will be interesting to watch when and what exactly drives them back closer to "business as usual".
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 6:02 pm

metalinyoni wrote:
The title is referencing a quote in this topic https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1461119 Reply #18

I'm not disagreeing with the quote at all but it got me wondering whether this would breathe new life into the remaining A380's. Arguably BA's schedule across the Atlantic was to cater for the business community's need for frequency. If the demand for frequency drops in the near term could it be in BA's interest to fly less frequencies? Could Emirates operate fewer B777 flights (and maybe this is one of the reasons STC is getting snotty over the B777X) and run more A380's for the price conscious leisure traveller?

Arguably the A380 is dead in the current market but if the leisure market recovers to pre pandemic levels and corporate travel doesn't possibly there is space for the A380. Maybe the A380 is due a mini renaissance.


I'd argue that is a false premise, I believe most airlines are indicating significant upswings in *domestic* business travel. It will be a while before it recovers fully, both domestic and especially internationally.

With respect to 77W vs. A380, the 77W has the benefit here due to cargo IMO.
 
chrisair
Posts: 2213
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 6:03 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
The big divide is in Big public companies vs Small/Medium companies. It is becoming obvious large corporate leaders are more scared of the social media mob, than anything else. It will be interesting to watch when and what exactly drives them back closer to "business as usual".


Eh. It's not social media. It's a money thing. "We've saved how much on T&E?!?!? How do we save this money and continue to grow our business?!?"

Aesma wrote:
One consequence of the pandemic is that many industries realized their supply chains were fragile. This is still showing today, with construction materials being in short supply, for example. This should lead to diversification in supply chains. For that to happen, I would expect business travel to be needed.


Yes and no. Diversification in my industry certainly is happening and a lot of those companies know what they need and reach out saying "we need an offset to XYZ" which results in a couple Teams/Zoom calls to get the details ironed out. Normally our teams are out having lunch with these folks and garner the leads that way. This was isn't perfect, but we're making it work for now. Some of it will be gone for good as everyone is way more productive now without having to spend a day or two flying to see a customer for lunch/dinner. Some of it is coming back and our teams are traveling more now than earlier this year.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25410
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 6:27 pm

Not much need for business travel when many corporate offices are not staffed. heck even airline HQs like AA and UA are not staffed much today with bulk of staff working from home.

I don't have a single U.S. client that has open corporate offices today, and those overseas likely not be open well into 2022.

So as a biz traveler that did 200,000miles+ annually, I really don't forecast flying this year.

Also lets not forget employers have a legal duty of care for their employees and combined with insurance restrictions and local ordinance pressures such as laws as in California presumes workers who contracted COVID-19 did so at work, unless the employer can prove otherwise, why send people out on travel unless a truly high need.

And yes, technology plays a big part also. If anything its proven that its easy to communicate and can do so far more frequently than having to make trips all over the place for merely one or two day. I have found myself far more productive and responsive to client needs by remaining in one place than traveling a few weeks a month.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1721
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 6:45 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Not much need for business travel when many corporate offices are not staffed. heck even airline HQs like AA and UA are not staffed much today with bulk of staff working from home.

I don't have a single U.S. client that has open corporate offices today, and those overseas likely not be open well into 2022.

So as a biz traveler that did 200,000miles+ annually, I really don't forecast flying this year.

Also lets not forget employers have a legal duty of care for their employees and combined with insurance restrictions and local ordinance pressures such as laws as in California presumes workers who contracted COVID-19 did so at work, unless the employer can prove otherwise, why send people out on travel unless a truly high need.

And yes, technology plays a big part also. If anything its proven that its easy to communicate and can do so far more frequently than having to make trips all over the place for merely one or two day. I have found myself far more productive and responsive to client needs by remaining in one place than traveling a few weeks a month.


We must run in different circles. Most of my clients are back and running - maybe not at 100% capacity, but most of my clients are back in office to a moderate degree. Our initial projection for a return to our own offices was not until after Labor Day. We're now discussing July 4.

I think the more discretionary trips will be very slow in returning. But, Zoom fatigue is real and it won't take much for companies to decide that they want/need to try to execute that lunch/dinner to seal the deal.

I'll also note that a -lot- of conferences are set for restart commencing in about July and August. I've been tasked to attend one in Atlanta in August.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10380
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 7:06 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
I think the more discretionary trips will be very slow in returning. But, Zoom fatigue is real and it won't take much for companies to decide that they want/need to try to execute that lunch/dinner to seal the deal.


You beat me to it. I'm so sick of Zoom that alone is incentive enough for me to go back into the office. If anything large companies have been caught with their pants down on how quickly we are reopening and how desperate people are to get back into the office. I don't know anyone that I work with that is not dying to get back into the office in some fashion. IMO the companies with their overblown safety messages backed themselves into a corner and now are trying to walk that fine line between going back on their word and allowing everyone to come back vs. continuing to make everyone stay at home.
The general population is not afraid to travel, as we've seen. Passenger numbers are going up daily, amusement parks, NBA arenas, and restaurants are packed. Those are the same people who used to travel for business or go into the office.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1881
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 7:09 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Not much need for business travel when many corporate offices are not staffed. heck even airline HQs like AA and UA are not staffed much today with bulk of staff working from home.

I don't have a single U.S. client that has open corporate offices today, and those overseas likely not be open well into 2022.

So as a biz traveler that did 200,000miles+ annually, I really don't forecast flying this year.

Also lets not forget employers have a legal duty of care for their employees and combined with insurance restrictions and local ordinance pressures such as laws as in California presumes workers who contracted COVID-19 did so at work, unless the employer can prove otherwise, why send people out on travel unless a truly high need.

And yes, technology plays a big part also. If anything its proven that its easy to communicate and can do so far more frequently than having to make trips all over the place for merely one or two day. I have found myself far more productive and responsive to client needs by remaining in one place than traveling a few weeks a month.

We must run in different circles. Most of my clients are back and running - maybe not at 100% capacity, but most of my clients are back in office to a moderate degree. Our initial projection for a return to our own offices was not until after Labor Day. We're now discussing July 4.

I think the more discretionary trips will be very slow in returning. But, Zoom fatigue is real and it won't take much for companies to decide that they want/need to try to execute that lunch/dinner to seal the deal.

I'll also note that a -lot- of conferences are set for restart commencing in about July and August. I've been tasked to attend one in Atlanta in August.


Agree there are good points in both posts. Everyone I know is sick of Zoom. Overall, remote has advantages as long as everyone plays by the same rules. But as soon as customers start coming back, which they have / will, and a competitor does and steals business, the rules will change quickly. Recently the head of a large bank commented that he was told by customers that they lost business because competitors traveled to meetings but the bank didn't. End of discussion about whether to travel. Of course, it has to be voluntary on the employee's part and everyone should be vaccinated, at least at this time.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1721
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 7:29 pm

This all reminds me of that United Airlines commercial from about 30 years ago where there is a big staff meeting and the boss comes in to tell everyone that they lost one of their oldest clients because, according to the boss, the client didn't know him anymore. He blamed phone calls, a fax, and another fax. This will happen again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9tMbDnBN8M
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Mon May 24, 2021 7:48 pm

Still think many offices are closed.

My wife works for a global consumer goods brand and their U.S. offices remain closed until September 1. Even when they reopen it will be on a voluntary basis and they expect to stagger staff no more than 1-3 days/week. They are planning on reducing office space at their U.S. HQ as they adopt hybrid work mode permanently. Seem to be handling things quite well from home from what she tells me.

My employer (UPS) also has the bulk of its corporate and regional offices also only staffed with skeleton staffing and I have not heard of any date to fully staff them.
I fly your boxes
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Tue May 25, 2021 11:36 am

People aren't sick of Zoom- they are sick of how many extra hours they are doing as companies take advantage of workers being home based and many staff not having the guts or seniority to say enough is enough.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 5190
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Tue May 25, 2021 3:45 pm

For Europe beyond the ongoing virus shutdowns, there is also the ecological factor to consider.

Even pre-Covid, flight shaming was a growing concept, so there is concerted efforts for business to minimize their impacts which clearly includes reduction of travel by staff.

Covid crisis has help prove that a significant amount of previous personal meetings can be accomplished via technology, so I certainly do expect companies to further limit trips when practical.
mercure f-wtcc
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Thu May 27, 2021 9:02 am

Corporate flying isn't dead. The private jet sector set records during the crisis. When the corona was at it's worst and airlines shut their flights, corporate travel was forced over into business jets. It is still there, it will be back on the airlines again eventually.
 
User avatar
PITingres
Posts: 1364
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:59 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Thu May 27, 2021 10:40 am

A lot of companies have learned that telemeetings work for a lot of things. Not everything, you still can't replace face to face time for some kinds of meetings such as a multi-day working group session. I don't know what percentage of prior travel will return, wild guess might be 2/3.

My company will be going into a hybrid mode permanently. Just about everyone likes it that way. Those who really want to be in an office 5x/week will be welcome and I expect the number of those to be counted on two hands.

Most of us aren't sick of Zoom, but then we made a conscious effort early on as a company to keep meetings efficient. Poorly run Zoom meetings are just as dire as poorly run face-to-face meetings.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 7417
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Thu May 27, 2021 3:17 pm

chrisair wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
The big divide is in Big public companies vs Small/Medium companies. It is becoming obvious large corporate leaders are more scared of the social media mob, than anything else. It will be interesting to watch when and what exactly drives them back closer to "business as usual".


Eh. It's not social media. It's a money thing. "We've saved how much on T&E?!?!? How do we save this money and continue to grow our business?!?"

The choice usually tends towards a less extravagant mode of travel..... :airplane:

Image
https://robbreport.com/wp-content/uploa ... jpg?w=1000

When operating a business jet starts to severely impact a company's bottom line, it forces a rethink for the more prudent fractional ownership option -- if at all.



mercure1 wrote:
Even pre-Covid, flight shaming was a growing concept, so there is concerted efforts for business to minimize their impacts which clearly includes reduction of travel by staff.

It would take a lot of moral suasion for corporate fat cats who order this kind of "toy" (for example) to abandon it..... :snooty:

Image
https://i.insider.com/609967b0342837001 ... ?width=700
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7841
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Thu May 27, 2021 10:25 pm

It’s less fat cats, than moving essential people around, especially with facilities is remote-ish locations. I’ve seen corporate shuttles and many still exist, most flight departments don’t fly to vacation spots, more like DesMoines or Peoria. I’ve been asked about a rather high-end bizjet with vinyl flooring instead of carpeting. It seems the company moved technicians around who traveled in dirty boots and jeans.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22463
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:22 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s less fat cats, than moving essential people around, especially with facilities is remote-ish locations. I’ve seen corporate shuttles and many still exist, most flight departments don’t fly to vacation spots, more like DesMoines or Peoria. I’ve been asked about a rather high-end bizjet with vinyl flooring instead of carpeting. It seems the company moved technicians around who traveled in dirty boots and jeans.

It is also about business discussion. I must stop discussing business while traveling. Except, my compatriots who fly on the corporate aircraft.

Corporate aircraft exist for shuttles. My employer has 5 aircraft locally (turboprops) for that role.

Lightsaber
8 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9088
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: 'Corporate flying is practically dead'

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:55 pm

Corporate flying on commercial airlines has comedown, business jet segment is booming.

Certain percentage of pre-COVID corporate travel was fluff. But that was considered perk, like employee training at a vendor location.

Virtual conferences put an end to virtual divorces. Learn to live with own wife and kids or get a real divorce. Can't use corporate travel to avoid family anymore.
All posts are just opinions.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: airlinenavigato, UARNO88 and 18 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos