I was just curious to hear your opinions regarding Skyteam in Europe: AF and KL are the big players here. then there is Air Europa, which I assume will be leaving the alliance following the acquisition by Iberia. Alitalia, whose own future is being discussed (ITA or whatever new name they come up with, smaller size,etc) has not yet defined its future alignement, but rumors of a LH involvement are on the table: personally i would love a closer cooperation with AF-KL but we will see. Czech Airline has a very small fleet and is going though some tumultuous waters at the moment. Tarom is as well a very small airline. There is also Aeroflot that offers good connections from Europe to russian destinations and further east, but there is not a lot of cooperation, for what i am aware.
Should AZ actually leave Skyteam, do you think a new member will be seeked? Star Alliance will be quite the big player should they get AZ as well, whereas ST would be quite smaller.
Other scenarios?? thanks for sharing your ideas!
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- PatrickZ80
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Re: Skyteam in Europe
You're right that Star Alliance is by far the largest in Europe, however some of it's members don't seem to be too happy and might want to switch. I'm specifically looking at LOT Polish Airlines, which could join either Skyteam or OneWorld. Skyteam would be a great fit for them.
It's also true that there ain't much cooperation between Air France-KLM and Aeroflot. They happen to be in the same alliance, but other than that they basically ignore each other. LOT has good connections to Asia as well and could be a great fit to supplement Air France-KLM, don't count on Aeroflot to do that.
It's also true that there ain't much cooperation between Air France-KLM and Aeroflot. They happen to be in the same alliance, but other than that they basically ignore each other. LOT has good connections to Asia as well and could be a great fit to supplement Air France-KLM, don't count on Aeroflot to do that.
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- davidjohnson6
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Re: Skyteam in Europe
As far as AFKL and DL are concerned, LOT would be useful mainly to eastern Europe and former USSR countries. I doubt AFKL would see many of their pax feeding via WAW to many of the major population centres (ie places with profitable routes) in eastern or southern Asia.
The real add of LOT joining Skyteam would be for the Skyteam carriers in eastern Asia being able to feed pax to central and northern Europe more easily, and to also weaken Star in Europe
The real add of LOT joining Skyteam would be for the Skyteam carriers in eastern Asia being able to feed pax to central and northern Europe more easily, and to also weaken Star in Europe
Re: Skyteam in Europe
I think Tarom should leave Skyteam & join Oneworld Alliance(to fill the void for an Eastern European carrier after MALEV left because of bankruptcy).
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- cityshuttle
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Re: Skyteam in Europe
I can imagine that RO would face additional costs leaving SkyTeam as they are also part of AF/KL’s FF program FlyingBlue.
[Same problem LO would face leaving *A, being a M&M partner]
[Same problem LO would face leaving *A, being a M&M partner]
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- davidjohnson6
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Re: Skyteam in Europe
Tarom need to think about having a sustainable business right now whilst being attacked heavily by the likes of Ryanair and Wizzair.... changing alliances is a long way down the priority list
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- CometOrbit
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Re: Skyteam in Europe
Alliances seem fairly irrelevant these days, with airlines having to concentrate on the very basics of their operations to survive the pandemic downturn in traffic.
In the UK we still have the peculiar situation where Virgin Atlantic is 49% owned by Delta, and is part of its trans-Atlantic JV, but is not in Skyteam nearly 10 years after the idea was first mooted.
In the UK we still have the peculiar situation where Virgin Atlantic is 49% owned by Delta, and is part of its trans-Atlantic JV, but is not in Skyteam nearly 10 years after the idea was first mooted.
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- eurotrader85
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Re: Skyteam in Europe
I thought one of the conditions of the new Alitalia was it had to give up its past FFP? While admitting that's slightly divorced from the alliance status, it would certainly be a big blow to legacy ties and no reason to automatically assume Alitalia2 will bolt into SkyTeam.
Skyteam to me always seems on the verge of breaking up altogether. Alliance's real value comes from connecting passengers and adding feed/services to markets you can't supply, i.e. on other continents. DL seems to have lost interest in the alliance long ago. CZ walked. LOT leaving Star would be more to do with politics in Star than a desire to move to someone else, and for what benefit? Further with LOT being part of Miles & More joining SkyTeam is not a straightforward issue.
This said I actually think alliances will become more important in the build back of capacity. Airlines who have cut back capacity will need to rely on each other to provide coverage and alliances do that. Those that have preached an end to the alliance system and 'going it alone' with ownership stakes are probably rueing their decisions atm. Ask DL.
Skyteam to me always seems on the verge of breaking up altogether. Alliance's real value comes from connecting passengers and adding feed/services to markets you can't supply, i.e. on other continents. DL seems to have lost interest in the alliance long ago. CZ walked. LOT leaving Star would be more to do with politics in Star than a desire to move to someone else, and for what benefit? Further with LOT being part of Miles & More joining SkyTeam is not a straightforward issue.
This said I actually think alliances will become more important in the build back of capacity. Airlines who have cut back capacity will need to rely on each other to provide coverage and alliances do that. Those that have preached an end to the alliance system and 'going it alone' with ownership stakes are probably rueing their decisions atm. Ask DL.
Re: Skyteam in Europe
I see it unlikely that LO leaves SA in the foreseeable future.The PoS of LO is to a large extent in Central Europe, where many customers are loyal to SA exactly because of its dominance in the region and use LO interchangeably with other SA carriers (especially flying eastwards). One may say that LO (upon joining the SA intended only as a feeder from Polish regional airports to hubs of major SA carriers) is now poaching LH customers in Central Europe. Upon leaving, LO would risk losing access to a number of these customers as for many located outside Poland LO may not necessarily be the primary choice.
The only thing that can actually make LO take this risk is being admitted not just to another alliance but to the jv between AA, BA, IB and AY (which is at present unlikely). Joining OW to face the same problems as in SA (a "secondary" membership) plus in addition fierce attacks by LH on its territory is not sufficiently "attractive".
The only non-SA carrier interested in flying long-haul to WAW is AA. Still I don't think LO would see itself as a feeder of AA in WAW (unless there would be a jv with LO in place, which as I mentioned is unlikely).
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In general I do not see any Central European carrier joining any of the alliances in the foreseeable future. And I do not see any clear value for the alliances in being expanded in the region as they already cover all main destinations in the region via their existing hubs and are themselves unwilling to fly long-haul to any of these destinations, so are in no need for feeders in these destinations. The biggest long-term value would be in UIA (because of the potential, yet unrealised size of the Ukrainian market), but also this seems to me unlikely.
The only thing that can actually make LO take this risk is being admitted not just to another alliance but to the jv between AA, BA, IB and AY (which is at present unlikely). Joining OW to face the same problems as in SA (a "secondary" membership) plus in addition fierce attacks by LH on its territory is not sufficiently "attractive".
The only non-SA carrier interested in flying long-haul to WAW is AA. Still I don't think LO would see itself as a feeder of AA in WAW (unless there would be a jv with LO in place, which as I mentioned is unlikely).
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In general I do not see any Central European carrier joining any of the alliances in the foreseeable future. And I do not see any clear value for the alliances in being expanded in the region as they already cover all main destinations in the region via their existing hubs and are themselves unwilling to fly long-haul to any of these destinations, so are in no need for feeders in these destinations. The biggest long-term value would be in UIA (because of the potential, yet unrealised size of the Ukrainian market), but also this seems to me unlikely.
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- davidjohnson6
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Re: Skyteam in Europe
Ukrainian Int (ie UIA) would be a very long term bet. The domestic air travel market is tiny, and traffic to the north and east (ie Belarus and Russia) is non-existent, making Kyiv a bit of a geographical dead-end for air transport connections
Re: Skyteam in Europe
davidjohnson6 wrote:Ukrainian Int (ie UIA) would be a very long term bet. The domestic air travel market is tiny, and traffic to the north and east (ie Belarus and Russia) is non-existent, making Kyiv a bit of a geographical dead-end for air transport connections
Well, it is a bet and a long term one, but it happens to be the only place in Europe where you have (or, better to say, will have) a market of 40 mln people that is not yet taken care of. When that market matures, and I agree it may take time (especially due to pending war), a Ukrainian partner in an alliance will definiately be of value. The difficulty is in the financial weakness of UIA and political issues that suround it (and of course in all things that prevent this market from maturing). For these reasons, as mentioned, I do not see UIA joining any of alliances in foreseeable future. Still it would be the best bet.
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