Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
IFLYUA767
Topic Author
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 11:42 pm

United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:58 am

I was reading planespotters.net that United operated a fleet of 10 747-200s from 1987 until 2000. According to planespotters.net two of the planes were delivered in 1987 while the others were delivered in 1991. The 1987 deliveries were new planes while the 1991 deliveries were used planes. Does anyone know why United took on the 747-200 and why some of them were used aircraft. It seems odd that they would take on this type especially since they got their first 747-400 in 1989. Also does anyone one know what routes the 747-200s were used on? The only one I could find was JFK-NRT.
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 5833
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:01 am

Think about the 747's UA inherited from PA in the acquisition of the PA Pacific System, UA had 747 sp's come with them. The previous ones flew ORD-SEA-NRT x 6 weekly & ORD-PDX-NRT 1 x weekly Tuesdays.
Last edited by RWA380 on Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14971
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:02 am

IFLYUA767 wrote:
I was reading planespotters.net that United operated a fleet of 10 747-200s from 1987 until 2000. According to planespotters.net two of the planes were delivered in 1987 while the others were delivered in 1991. The 1987 deliveries were new planes while the 1991 deliveries were used planes. Does anyone know why United took on the 747-200 and why some of them were used aircraft. It seems odd that they would take on this type especially since they got their first 747-400 in 1989. Also does anyone one know what routes the 747-200s were used on? The only one I could find was JFK-NRT.


Obviously because 747-400 deliveries were slow. The majority of early 744 delivery slots went to BA, LH, SQ, and KL. UA got a handful but they were not first in line.

https://www.airfleets.net/listing/b747-14.htm
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:06 am

UA picked up a couple 742s from Qantas I believe. I seem to remember seeing them on LAX-SYD. You could tell they were ex-QF as the engine nacelles were different from the PW UA ones.
It sounds like thunder but the way this year is going, it could be Godzilla!
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 537
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:23 am

The late model B742 had additional range and could perform JFK-NRT nonstop, whereas the classic 747 in UA’s fleet could not. UA acquired them to get a leg up on the competition (on JFK-NRT)...
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2284
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:24 am

According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 325
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:33 am

RWA380 wrote:
Think about the 747's UA inherited from PA in the acquisition of the PA Pacific System, UA had 747 sp's come with them. The previous ones flew ORD-SEA-NRT x 6 weekly & ORD-PDX-NRT 1 x weekly Tuesdays.

UA inherited L-1011 and B747SP when they bought the Pacific System from Pan Am. Pan Am's B747-200 mainly went to Tower Air and Evergreen Int'l Airlines.
 
aeromoe
Posts: 1714
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:46 am

jetblastdubai wrote:
UA picked up a couple 742s from Qantas I believe. I seem to remember seeing them on LAX-SYD. You could tell they were ex-QF as the engine nacelles were different from the PW UA ones.


Please explain to me the visual difference between the engine nacelles of the P&W powered ex-QF and the two new 747-222Bs (N151UA & N152UA)

Thank You.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
aeromoe
Posts: 1714
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:49 am

WayexTDI wrote:
According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.


I'll ask you the same question: Please explain to me the visual difference between the engine nacelles of the P&W powered ex-QF and the two new 747-222Bs (N151UA & N152UA)

Thank You.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 325
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:53 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
The late model B742 had additional range and could perform JFK-NRT nonstop, whereas the classic 747 in UA’s fleet could not. UA acquired them to get a leg up on the competition (on JFK-NRT)...

Yes, in 1983 following the lifting of the Transpacific Route Case which denied United expansion internationally, UA opened up flights between its Seattle and Portland to Tokyo-Narita Airport in Japan. The purchase of Pan Am's Pacific System in 1985 allowed UA to leapfrog against her competitors, by end of 1986 they had 13 Asia Pacific destinations in its network from virtually none existent. The massive expansion in a territory which previously thought impossible, warranted them to buy B747-200 as it had higher seating capacity (B747SP around 230 pax vs B747-200 369 pax), at the same time they offloaded the oddball L-1011. Thereafter, they went to used airframe market to buy more, hence buying over QF's 7 B747-238B. When those were all delivered by 1991, the B747SP left UA fleet by 1992/93.

PS: UA B747SP looks so damn fine in Battleship livery. Some of the sexiest B747SP livery ever live! Sadly only one managed to be painted.
 
TW870
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:12 am

Former UA flight attendant here who used to work the 747s all the time.

Here is the basic United 747 classic history. Starting in 1970, United got an original batch of 18 747-122s - much like many of the other trunk airlines for domestic routes and Hawaii. These were early-build JT9D-3A powered birds. Those were the only United 747s until October of 1985, when United acquired Pan Am's Pacific routes. As a part of that deal, United took the 10 former Pan Am 747SPs (I believe one of those was actually a 747SP-27 built for Braniff). Not long thereafter, two factory fresh 747-222Bs came. They were JT9D-7R4G2 powered, and were by far the most capable 747 classics United ever owned. These had been ordered for Pacific Northwest-Asia flights before the Pan Am deal was finished. Six months after the -222Bs came, United took a tranche of five 747-123s that had originally been delivered to American. Like the original United batch, they were -3A powered and used mostly for West Coast-HNL-Asia flying. The final batch of 747 classics to be delivered were the seven ex-Qantas 747-238Bs, which came in 1991. These were originally built in the early-1970s, and were JT9D-7J powered by the time they flew for us. My only question is about the one 747-212B that United owned. It was always registered N724PA, and while United owned it, I am not sure they ever operated it.

I flew for United from 1998-2004. Of the classics, I only worked the -123s and the -238Bs. The -123s were high density two-class birds that were configured 48J 402Y. The business seats were only in A-zone and on the upper deck. Very tough plane to work for newbies like myself because it had the old lower-lobe galleys that you accessed via elevators down to the cargo bay. The -238Bs were great to work. Not sure of the exact seat count, but it had first class recliners in A-zone, business recliners in B- and part of C-zone and the upper deck, and Y seats in the back of C-zone as well as D- and E-zone. I am sad that I never got to work the -222Bs, because they were super low-density. First class was all of A- and B-zone, business was C- and D-zone plus the upper deck, and economy was only in E-zone. About 300 total seats. They sold these birds in 1998 to NW, who wanted capable -7R4G2 freighters.

Hope this info is helpful!
 
TW870
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:18 am

aeromoe wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.


I'll ask you the same question: Please explain to me the visual difference between the engine nacelles of the P&W powered ex-QF and the two new 747-222Bs (N151UA & N152UA)

Thank You.


There is no visual difference in nacelles. All United 747 classics were JT9D powered, and thus all had the exact same nacelles. The package inside was very, very different however. The original JT9D-3A/7A/7F/7J family ran in the 43,000-48,000lb thrust range, and burned more fuel than the later -7R family that delivered in the 54,000lb thrust range. But again, no external difference.
 
IFLYUA767
Topic Author
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 11:42 pm

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:56 am

[quote="TW870"]Former UA flight attendant here who used to work the 747s all the time.

Here is the basic United 747 classic history. Starting in 1970, United got an original batch of 18 747-122s - much like many of the other trunk airlines for domestic routes and Hawaii. These were early-build JT9D-3A powered birds. Those were the only United 747s until October of 1985, when United acquired Pan Am's Pacific routes. As a part of that deal, United took the 10 former Pan Am 747SPs (I believe one of those was actually a 747SP-27 built for Braniff). Not long thereafter, two factory fresh 747-222Bs came. They were JT9D-7R4G2 powered, and were by far the most capable 747 classics United ever owned. These had been ordered for Pacific Northwest-Asia flights before the Pan Am deal was finished. Six months after the -222Bs came, United took a tranche of five 747-123s that had originally been delivered to American. Like the original United batch, they were -3A powered and used mostly for West Coast-HNL-Asia flying. The final batch of 747 classics to be delivered were the seven ex-Qantas 747-238Bs, which came in 1991. These were originally built in the early-1970s, and were JT9D-7J powered by the time they flew for us. My only question is about the one 747-212B that United owned. It was always registered N724PA, and while United owned it, I am not sure they ever operated it.

I flew for United from 1998-2004. Of the classics, I only worked the -123s and the -238Bs. The -123s were high density two-class birds that were configured 48J 402Y. The business seats were only in A-zone and on the upper deck. Very tough plane to work for newbies like myself because it had the old lower-lobe galleys that you accessed via elevators down to the cargo bay. The -238Bs were great to work. Not sure of the exact seat count, but it had first class recliners in A-zone, business recliners in B- and part of C-zone and the upper deck, and Y seats in the back of C-zone as well as D- and E-zone. I am sad that I never got to work the -222Bs, because they were super low-density. First class was all of A- and B-zone, business was C- and D-zone plus the upper deck, and economy was only in E-zone. About 300 total seats. They sold these birds in 1998 to NW, who wanted capable -7R4G2 freighters.

Hope this info is helpful![/quote

It was very helpful. Thank you.
Last edited by IFLYUA767 on Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
aeromoe
Posts: 1714
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:57 am

TW870 wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.


I'll ask you the same question: Please explain to me the visual difference between the engine nacelles of the P&W powered ex-QF and the two new 747-222Bs (N151UA & N152UA)

Thank You.


There is no visual difference in nacelles.


Exactly my point. No external difference yet someone up thread is asserting there is a difference in the nacelles.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14971
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:12 am

aeromoe wrote:
TW870 wrote:
aeromoe wrote:

I'll ask you the same question: Please explain to me the visual difference between the engine nacelles of the P&W powered ex-QF and the two new 747-222Bs (N151UA & N152UA)

Thank You.


There is no visual difference in nacelles.


Exactly my point. No external difference yet someone up thread is asserting there is a difference in the nacelles.


The difference people may be thinking of are the nacelles on the JT9D-3 that came with the original -100 series. They were slightly different with the sucker doors on the fan casing that took in additional air at high power settings.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 325
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:30 am

TW870 wrote:
Former UA flight attendant here who used to work the 747s all the time.

Here is the basic United 747 classic history. Starting in 1970, United got an original batch of 18 747-122s - much like many of the other trunk airlines for domestic routes and Hawaii. These were early-build JT9D-3A powered birds. Those were the only United 747s until October of 1985, when United acquired Pan Am's Pacific routes. As a part of that deal, United took the 10 former Pan Am 747SPs (I believe one of those was actually a 747SP-27 built for Braniff). Not long thereafter, two factory fresh 747-222Bs came. They were JT9D-7R4G2 powered, and were by far the most capable 747 classics United ever owned. These had been ordered for Pacific Northwest-Asia flights before the Pan Am deal was finished. Six months after the -222Bs came, United took a tranche of five 747-123s that had originally been delivered to American. Like the original United batch, they were -3A powered and used mostly for West Coast-HNL-Asia flying. The final batch of 747 classics to be delivered were the seven ex-Qantas 747-238Bs, which came in 1991. These were originally built in the early-1970s, and were JT9D-7J powered by the time they flew for us. My only question is about the one 747-212B that United owned. It was always registered N724PA, and while United owned it, I am not sure they ever operated it.

I flew for United from 1998-2004. Of the classics, I only worked the -123s and the -238Bs. The -123s were high density two-class birds that were configured 48J 402Y. The business seats were only in A-zone and on the upper deck. Very tough plane to work for newbies like myself because it had the old lower-lobe galleys that you accessed via elevators down to the cargo bay. The -238Bs were great to work. Not sure of the exact seat count, but it had first class recliners in A-zone, business recliners in B- and part of C-zone and the upper deck, and Y seats in the back of C-zone as well as D- and E-zone. I am sad that I never got to work the -222Bs, because they were super low-density. First class was all of A- and B-zone, business was C- and D-zone plus the upper deck, and economy was only in E-zone. About 300 total seats. They sold these birds in 1998 to NW, who wanted capable -7R4G2 freighters.

Hope this info is helpful!

This is an excellent piece! Need to archive for future geenration. Thank you, I have learnt some new stuff today!
 
aeromoe
Posts: 1714
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:34 am

Aaron747 wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
TW870 wrote:

There is no visual difference in nacelles.


Exactly my point. No external difference yet someone up thread is asserting there is a difference in the nacelles.


The difference people may be thinking of are the nacelles on the JT9D-3 that came with the original -100 series. They were slightly different with the sucker doors on the fan casing that took in additional air at high power settings.


Maybe but I doubt it given the context of the discussion about the QANTAS -238Bs and United -222Bs.
Last edited by aeromoe on Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2284
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:35 am

TW870 wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.


I'll ask you the same question: Please explain to me the visual difference between the engine nacelles of the P&W powered ex-QF and the two new 747-222Bs (N151UA & N152UA)

Thank You.


There is no visual difference in nacelles. All United 747 classics were JT9D powered, and thus all had the exact same nacelles. The package inside was very, very different however. The original JT9D-3A/7A/7F/7J family ran in the 43,000-48,000lb thrust range, and burned more fuel than the later -7R family that delivered in the 54,000lb thrust range. But again, no external difference.

I mentioned the nacelle as it was mentioned before me; guess that'll teach me...

But, I have a question: the JT9D-7R has a fan over an inch bigger (at 93.4") than the -3A/-7/-7A/-7H/-7AH/-7F/-7J (at 92.3"); were they able to reuse the same nacelle given the bigger diameter and higher air flow?
Another poster mentioned the -3As had different nacelle than the later ones. So I'm curious.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7889
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:16 am

jetblastdubai wrote:
UA picked up a couple 742s from Qantas I believe. I seem to remember seeing them on LAX-SYD. You could tell they were ex-QF as the engine nacelles were different from the PW UA ones.


You definitely didn’t see them on LAX-SYD non stop, these were fairly early build 742s with the less powerful PW engines, delivered 1974/78 or so IIRC. QF disposed of them while keeping the later build RR frames. However did UA run the 238s internationally at all? They could have been on LAX-HNL-AKL-SYD? Did the 123 series run international?
 
User avatar
DL_Mech
Posts: 2665
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 7:48 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:31 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
However did UA run the 238s internationally at all?


I flew on one SFO-NRT.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
TW870
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:51 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
TW870 wrote:
aeromoe wrote:

I'll ask you the same question: Please explain to me the visual difference between the engine nacelles of the P&W powered ex-QF and the two new 747-222Bs (N151UA & N152UA)

Thank You.


There is no visual difference in nacelles. All United 747 classics were JT9D powered, and thus all had the exact same nacelles. The package inside was very, very different however. The original JT9D-3A/7A/7F/7J family ran in the 43,000-48,000lb thrust range, and burned more fuel than the later -7R family that delivered in the 54,000lb thrust range. But again, no external difference.

I mentioned the nacelle as it was mentioned before me; guess that'll teach me...

But, I have a question: the JT9D-7R has a fan over an inch bigger (at 93.4") than the -3A/-7/-7A/-7H/-7AH/-7F/-7J (at 92.3"); were they able to reuse the same nacelle given the bigger diameter and higher air flow?
Another poster mentioned the -3As had different nacelle than the later ones. So I'm curious.


Those are great questions. That is correct that early JT9D-3 motors had "sucker plates," ducts that would open inward at high power settings to improve airflow. The JT3D and JT8D also had these in various contexts on the 707 and 737. As they tweaked the JT9D over time, they could make more power without the drag and the complexity of the sucker plates, so they deleted them. The nacelle looked the same minus the outlines for the sucker plates. This gets to the point that I believe - and I am willing to stand corrected on this - that you could convert these motors within the early JT9D family. A -3A could become a -7A with a modification.

As far as the larger fan of the -7R family, the nacelle is still indistinguishable. You cannot visually distinguish the 1" larger inlet from a distance.

The only significant Pratt&Whitney nacelle difference in the whole 747 family was on the JT9D-70A motor on the Seaboard World -200Fs. This had a much longer fan cowl and no cone coming out of the hot section. Very oddball motor that was an early iteration of the -7Q family. But that is irrelevant here in that United never operated that variant.
 
TW870
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:58 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
jetblastdubai wrote:
UA picked up a couple 742s from Qantas I believe. I seem to remember seeing them on LAX-SYD. You could tell they were ex-QF as the engine nacelles were different from the PW UA ones.


You definitely didn’t see them on LAX-SYD non stop, these were fairly early build 742s with the less powerful PW engines, delivered 1974/78 or so IIRC. QF disposed of them while keeping the later build RR frames. However did UA run the 238s internationally at all? They could have been on LAX-HNL-AKL-SYD? Did the 123 series run international?


Earlier in the 1990s, the -238Bs operated to Europe and across the North Pacific. Like you say though they never operated SYD non-stops given the performance limitations of earlier -7J powered birds. By the time I started at United, there were enough 777s and -400s to pull the less efficient -238Bs back to domestic and Hawaii. I worked them on DEN turns out of SFO many time, as well as on routes like ORD-LAX and SFO-KOA.

The -123s did operate in Asia. I distinctly remember working a -400 out of NRT in 1998 and seeing a -123 at the gate next to us going to SEL. My guess is the routing was HNL-NRT-SEL. This was during the period that the SFO-SEL-MNL route was suspended, and they instead ran multiple tags a day to SEL out of NRT.
 
aeromoe
Posts: 1714
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:01 pm

TW870 wrote:
The -123s did operate in Asia. I distinctly remember working a -400 out of NRT in 1998 and seeing a -123 at the gate next to us going to SEL. My guess is the routing was HNL-NRT-SEL. This was during the period that the SFO-SEL-MNL route was suspended, and they instead ran multiple tags a day to SEL out of NRT.


:checkmark:

While stationed in Korea the whole of 1988 I flew UA Kimpo-Narita-Kimpo. UA 58 on N4727U (-122) to NRT and UA 53 on N157UA (a -123) on the return. I haven't researched the entire routing for those flight numbers. My point is to confirm the -122s and -123s were also being used in Asia early on after UA began the ex-PA Pacific routes...even well before the -400s arrived.

TW870: Why was Manila suspended during this period?
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
aeromoe
Posts: 1714
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:17 pm

TW870 wrote:
The only significant Pratt&Whitney nacelle difference in the whole 747 family was on the JT9D-70A motor on the Seaboard World -200Fs. This had a much longer fan cowl and no cone coming out of the hot section. Very oddball motor that was an early iteration of the -7Q family. But that is irrelevant here in that United never operated that variant.


Yes, off topic but let's not overlook the fact SAS also took new delivery of 747-283BM(s) with those oddball motors. See SE-DFZ below. Continue researching and you'll see other airlines operated it as well after SAS.





As well as 747-283B LN-RNA, which was unfortunately written-off later with Avianca at Madrid:

Last edited by aeromoe on Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14971
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:26 pm

aeromoe wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The only significant Pratt&Whitney nacelle difference in the whole 747 family was on the JT9D-70A motor on the Seaboard World -200Fs. This had a much longer fan cowl and no cone coming out of the hot section. Very oddball motor that was an early iteration of the -7Q family. But that is irrelevant here in that United never operated that variant.


Yes, off topic but let's not overlook the fact SAS also took new delivery of 747-283BM(s) with those oddball motors. See SE-DFZ below. Continue researching and you'll see other airlines operated it as well after SAS.






Forgot about those one-offs. So odd looking, as if someone butchered a set of the GE CF6-50s.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
aeromoe
Posts: 1714
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The only significant Pratt&Whitney nacelle difference in the whole 747 family was on the JT9D-70A motor on the Seaboard World -200Fs. This had a much longer fan cowl and no cone coming out of the hot section. Very oddball motor that was an early iteration of the -7Q family. But that is irrelevant here in that United never operated that variant.


Yes, off topic but let's not overlook the fact SAS also took new delivery of 747-283BM(s) with those oddball motors. See SE-DFZ below. Continue researching and you'll see other airlines operated it as well after SAS.





As well as 747-283B LN-RNA, which was unfortunately written-off later with Avianca at Madrid:



Forgot about those one-offs. So odd looking, as if someone butchered a set of the GE CF6-50s.


Yeah, these oddball birds were few and far between.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2284
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:59 pm

TW870 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TW870 wrote:

There is no visual difference in nacelles. All United 747 classics were JT9D powered, and thus all had the exact same nacelles. The package inside was very, very different however. The original JT9D-3A/7A/7F/7J family ran in the 43,000-48,000lb thrust range, and burned more fuel than the later -7R family that delivered in the 54,000lb thrust range. But again, no external difference.

I mentioned the nacelle as it was mentioned before me; guess that'll teach me...

But, I have a question: the JT9D-7R has a fan over an inch bigger (at 93.4") than the -3A/-7/-7A/-7H/-7AH/-7F/-7J (at 92.3"); were they able to reuse the same nacelle given the bigger diameter and higher air flow?
Another poster mentioned the -3As had different nacelle than the later ones. So I'm curious.


Those are great questions. That is correct that early JT9D-3 motors had "sucker plates," ducts that would open inward at high power settings to improve airflow. The JT3D and JT8D also had these in various contexts on the 707 and 737. As they tweaked the JT9D over time, they could make more power without the drag and the complexity of the sucker plates, so they deleted them. The nacelle looked the same minus the outlines for the sucker plates. This gets to the point that I believe - and I am willing to stand corrected on this - that you could convert these motors within the early JT9D family. A -3A could become a -7A with a modification.

As far as the larger fan of the -7R family, the nacelle is still indistinguishable. You cannot visually distinguish the 1" larger inlet from a distance.

The only significant Pratt&Whitney nacelle difference in the whole 747 family was on the JT9D-70A motor on the Seaboard World -200Fs. This had a much longer fan cowl and no cone coming out of the hot section. Very oddball motor that was an early iteration of the -7Q family. But that is irrelevant here in that United never operated that variant.

Thank you for the friendly response.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:53 pm

TW870 wrote:

The only significant Pratt&Whitney nacelle difference in the whole 747 family was on the JT9D-70A motor on the Seaboard World -200Fs. This had a much longer fan cowl and no cone coming out of the hot section. Very oddball motor that was an early iteration of the -7Q family. But that is irrelevant here in that United never operated that variant.


For some reason I was certain UA had some birds with the other engine outline. I worked a bunch of QF flights at LAX during the years I was there and was thinking that the old -200s all had the same engine. https://www.airliners.net/photo/Qantas/ ... %2BM%2BzCi

Sorry for the bad information.
It sounds like thunder but the way this year is going, it could be Godzilla!
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3031
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:02 pm

I believe the joke around QF at the times was "we sold a batch of 747's to United who then promptly used them to compete against us on the LAX-HNL-SYD route."
 
TW870
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:57 pm

aeromoe wrote:
TW870 wrote:
The -123s did operate in Asia. I distinctly remember working a -400 out of NRT in 1998 and seeing a -123 at the gate next to us going to SEL. My guess is the routing was HNL-NRT-SEL. This was during the period that the SFO-SEL-MNL route was suspended, and they instead ran multiple tags a day to SEL out of NRT.


:checkmark:

While stationed in Korea the whole of 1988 I flew UA Kimpo-Narita-Kimpo. UA 58 on N4727U (-122) to NRT and UA 53 on N157UA (a -123) on the return. I haven't researched the entire routing for those flight numbers. My point is to confirm the -122s and -123s were also being used in Asia early on after UA began the ex-PA Pacific routes...even well before the -400s arrived.

TW870: Why was Manila suspended during this period?


I actually take my comment back. The SFO-SEL non-stop came and went over the years, and I think MNL actually got tagged onto SEL in the mid-1990s to help make the overall routing work. MNL tended not to be a strong destination for United, in part because Northwest had been so dominant there since the 1940s. For detailed dates you would have to go back and check the schedules.

Another thing to remember is that NRT hub flying was dominant at United until the late-1990s. It is hard to believe this with the way the global economy works today, but I remember being SFO-based when we started daily nonstop 747-400 service on SFO-PEK and SFO-PVG in 2000. Prior to that, it was all through Tokyo. Part of this is because China was less central to the global economy than it is now, and part of it is because, prior to the huge 747-400 buildup at United in the mid-1990s, we just didn't have enough long-haul airplanes to put on those routes. Out of all the 747 classics, only the SPs and the two -222Bs could operate routes longer than West Coast-Japan. Therefore, we tended to funnel some traffic across the pacific on 3-class 747-122s, and then connect to other 747 classics at NRT. In the 1980s, Northwest had a far better 747 fleet than United, with a larger block of -7Q and -7R4G2 powered birds for runs like ORD-SEL and JFK-NRT.
 
aeromoe
Posts: 1714
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:19 pm

TW870: Why was Manila suspended during this period?
TW870 wrote:

I actually take my comment back. The SFO-SEL non-stop came and went over the years, and I think MNL actually got tagged onto SEL in the mid-1990s to help make the overall routing work. MNL tended not to be a strong destination for United, in part because Northwest had been so dominant there since the 1940s. For detailed dates you would have to go back and check the schedules.


My 1988 year in Korea began with UA 123 SFO-SEL aboard 747SP-21 N141UA on 4/5 Jan 1988. It ended with a Flying Tigers 747-133 N890FT OSN-OKO-ANC-OAK on 4 Jan 1989. N141UA is the only 747SP flight in my logbook.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
aeromoe
Posts: 1714
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:21 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
TW870 wrote:

The only significant Pratt&Whitney nacelle difference in the whole 747 family was on the JT9D-70A motor on the Seaboard World -200Fs. This had a much longer fan cowl and no cone coming out of the hot section. Very oddball motor that was an early iteration of the -7Q family. But that is irrelevant here in that United never operated that variant.


For some reason I was certain UA had some birds with the other engine outline. I worked a bunch of QF flights at LAX during the years I was there and was thinking that the old -200s all had the same engine. https://www.airliners.net/photo/Qantas/ ... %2BM%2BzCi

Sorry for the bad information.


Besides, those QF 747-200s after the P&W fleet are Rolls Royce. VH-EBQ and above are the registrations for RR powered QF.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
User avatar
ClipperMonsoon
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:45 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:46 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.


Check the ex QF -238Bs, that UA operated, those came equipped with PW JT9, i don't think they operated any of the QF models with RRs, check the pics for yourself, QF did operate 747- 200s with RRs, but not those that UA operated.
The true Queen of the Skies the Boeing 707-321B
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:01 am

aeromoe wrote:
Exactly my point. No external difference yet someone up thread is asserting there is a difference in the nacelles.


Are you making the point that anonymous message board experts might not actually be experts?

If so...I'm shocked.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7889
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:21 am

ClipperMonsoon wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.


Check the ex QF -238Bs, that UA operated, those came equipped with PW JT9, i don't think they operated any of the QF models with RRs, check the pics for yourself, QF did operate 747- 200s with RRs, but not those that UA operated.


I’m not seeing anyone saying UA operated RR powered 747 classics, they didn’t anyway. QF sold the PW powered fleet, some of the early ones QF had for their entire lives and were scrapped while UA got 7 PW powered and CO also got a few. QF had 5 RR powered 742s delivered from 1979/81 which stayed with QF until 2002/03.
 
User avatar
ClipperMonsoon
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:45 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:39 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
ClipperMonsoon wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.


Check the ex QF -238Bs, that UA operated, those came equipped with PW JT9, i don't think they operated any of the QF models with RRs, check the pics for yourself, QF did operate 747- 200s with RRs, but not those that UA operated.


I’m not seeing anyone saying UA operated RR powered 747 classics, they didn’t anyway. QF sold the PW powered fleet, some of the early ones QF had for their entire lives and were scrapped while UA got 7 PW powered and CO also got a few. QF had 5 RR powered 742s delivered from 1979/81 which stayed with QF until 2002/03.

If you re-read my post, a poster was mentioning about the "different nacelles", the difference between the -7Js and the -7R4G2s is miniscule if any at all i said basically the same thing you said, so i don't see what your point is.
The true Queen of the Skies the Boeing 707-321B
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2284
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:01 pm

ClipperMonsoon wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.


Check the ex QF -238Bs, that UA operated, those came equipped with PW JT9, i don't think they operated any of the QF models with RRs, check the pics for yourself, QF did operate 747- 200s with RRs, but not those that UA operated.

Uh? Where did I say that the QF birds that went to UA had the RR?
 
User avatar
ClipperMonsoon
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:45 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:49 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
ClipperMonsoon wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
According to Airfleets.net, UA operated 7 747-238Bs (ex-Qantas) & 1 747-212B (ex-Pan Am) with JT9D-7Js, and 2 747-222s fresh from the factory with JT9D-7R4G2s. That would account for the different nacelles.


Check the ex QF -238Bs, that UA operated, those came equipped with PW JT9, i don't think they operated any of the QF models with RRs, check the pics for yourself, QF did operate 747- 200s with RRs, but not those that UA operated.

Uh? Where did I say that the QF birds that went to UA had the RR?


You quoted "that would account for the different nacelles", all the 747-200 PW nacelles are similar, (minus some of the SAS 747s) so what different nacelles are you talking about then?
The true Queen of the Skies the Boeing 707-321B
 
UA444
Posts: 3087
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:15 pm

I believe UA initially ordered 6 747-222Bs but only took two and converted the rest to 744’s.
 
amc737
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:56 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:40 pm

When it was announced that United has purchased Pan Am Heathrow authorities the deal was meant to include 2 747-200's, I wonder if this is how N724PA has ended up being owned by United as like others have said I don't think this was ever operated by United.

The purchase of the Heathrow rights is a consideration in the UA 747 story, in August 1991 the first summer of their operations out of up to 9 daily flights 7 where 747's 100/200/SP's. I saw all types of classics operate into Heathrow, I seem to remember the ex American 747s retained just 3 upper deck windows while Uniteds own built ones had full length windows.

Of the original 18 -122's by the time of the Heathrow route purchase 5 had already been sold to Pan Am in 1985-86,

N4703U
N4704U
N4710U
N4711U
N4712U

these all ended up as freighters with Polar Air Cargo

The rest of the 122's where in service longer and where retired in the mid 90's

N4713U - this was re-registered N4724U after its accident in Hawaii
N4714U
N4716U
N4717U
N4718U
N4719U
N4720U
N4723U
N4727U
N4728U
N4729U
N4732U
N4735U

In addition as has been mentioned 5 ex American 123's joined the fleet in 1987-88

N153UA
N154UA
N155UA
N156UA
N157UA

So the 100 fleet was never larger than 18, but 23 individual aircraft had been operated, coupled with the 7 ex Qantas 200's 2 brand new 200's and 11 SP's I think the peak United classic fleet was in the early 1990's and stood at 38 frames.

amc737
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2284
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:45 pm

ClipperMonsoon wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ClipperMonsoon wrote:

Check the ex QF -238Bs, that UA operated, those came equipped with PW JT9, i don't think they operated any of the QF models with RRs, check the pics for yourself, QF did operate 747- 200s with RRs, but not those that UA operated.

Uh? Where did I say that the QF birds that went to UA had the RR?


You quoted "that would account for the different nacelles", all the 747-200 PW nacelles are similar, (minus some of the SAS 747s) so what different nacelles are you talking about then?

Someone mentioned different nacelles; since the JT9D-8J and JT9D-7R4G2 have different external dimensions, it could have been the reason why. Seems this was wrong, and someone already corrected it.
It seems it was the JT9D-3A on the 747-100s that had a slightly different nacelle, per another poster.
Matter's been closed for a few days now.
 
User avatar
ClipperMonsoon
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:45 am

Re: United Airlines and the 747-200

Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:02 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
ClipperMonsoon wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Uh? Where did I say that the QF birds that went to UA had the RR?


You quoted "that would account for the different nacelles", all the 747-200 PW nacelles are similar, (minus some of the SAS 747s) so what different nacelles are you talking about then?

Someone mentioned different nacelles; since the JT9D-8J and JT9D-7R4G2 have different external dimensions, it could have been the reason why. Seems this was wrong, and someone already corrected it.
It seems it was the JT9D-3A on the 747-100s that had a slightly different nacelle, per another poster.
Matter's been closed for a few days now.


Well i hope you understand that my post never said any of those things you accused me of. We were actually on the same page, so I'm done on this subject, but apparently the post continues one)good day
The true Queen of the Skies the Boeing 707-321B

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: classicjets and 19 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos