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twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
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777luver wrote:No. BoB makes money.
USAirALB wrote:IIRC, DL has seriously considered going back to complimentary meal service in Y a number of times, but has decided against it. They did offer complimentary cold meals (sandwich + side) on a number of transcon routes pre-pandemic (DCA-LAX, JFK-SFO/LAX/SEA/PDX, BOS-SFO/LAX/SEA, SEA-RDU/FLL/MCO). The offering was decent. They couldn't go back to hot meal service as I believe they removed ovens from their domestic fleet, sans for a few 738/739s that had them (unsure if they still do).
United is the only US carrier that has ovens in their Y galley on their domestic fleet.
It bothers me whenever people say things like "bring food from home" or "you can last 6 hours without food service". A couple of years back I did DCA-DFW-ANC. The flight left DCA in the late morning, and the connection time in DFW wasn't long enough to stop and get food. We ended up having a ground delay after boarding in DFW, and we landed in ANC late, close to 8PM local time, or around midnight DCA time. They ran out of BOB by the time they got to my row, and I was quite hungry by the time I got to ANC. Not sure what type of meal I would be able to pack from home that would sustain me for 12 hours, plus make it through TSA, and the 3.5 hour flight to DFW and the connection. A complimentary meal would have been a welcome offering.777luver wrote:No. BoB makes money.
I don't think that is true.
I always heard that airlines don't make money on their BOB programs, but rather it allows them to recoup some of their losses from their domestic Y catering program. If anything it probably breaks even.
777luver wrote:USAirALB wrote:IIRC, DL has seriously considered going back to complimentary meal service in Y a number of times, but has decided against it. They did offer complimentary cold meals (sandwich + side) on a number of transcon routes pre-pandemic (DCA-LAX, JFK-SFO/LAX/SEA/PDX, BOS-SFO/LAX/SEA, SEA-RDU/FLL/MCO). The offering was decent. They couldn't go back to hot meal service as I believe they removed ovens from their domestic fleet, sans for a few 738/739s that had them (unsure if they still do).
United is the only US carrier that has ovens in their Y galley on their domestic fleet.
It bothers me whenever people say things like "bring food from home" or "you can last 6 hours without food service". A couple of years back I did DCA-DFW-ANC. The flight left DCA in the late morning, and the connection time in DFW wasn't long enough to stop and get food. We ended up having a ground delay after boarding in DFW, and we landed in ANC late, close to 8PM local time, or around midnight DCA time. They ran out of BOB by the time they got to my row, and I was quite hungry by the time I got to ANC. Not sure what type of meal I would be able to pack from home that would sustain me for 12 hours, plus make it through TSA, and the 3.5 hour flight to DFW and the connection. A complimentary meal would have been a welcome offering.777luver wrote:No. BoB makes money.
I don't think that is true.
I always heard that airlines don't make money on their BOB programs, but rather it allows them to recoup some of their losses from their domestic Y catering program. If anything it probably breaks even.
I stand corrected. I was pretty sure they made money. They have to make something in my opinion. Your answer makes a lot of sense as well. It's It's cheaper because from what I understand it's cheaper for the airlines to do it this way although I can't remember if it's because they get a buyback on what they sell or what if someone could correct me.
USAirALB wrote:IIRC, DL has seriously considered going back to complimentary meal service in Y a number of times, but has decided against it. They did offer complimentary cold meals (sandwich + side) on a number of transcon routes pre-pandemic (DCA-LAX, JFK-SFO/LAX/SEA/PDX, BOS-SFO/LAX/SEA, SEA-RDU/FLL/MCO). The offering was decent. They couldn't go back to hot meal service as I believe they removed ovens from their domestic fleet, sans for a few 738/739s that had them (unsure if they still do).
United is the only US carrier that has ovens in their Y galley on their domestic fleet.
It bothers me whenever people say things like "bring food from home" or "you can last 6 hours without food service". A couple of years back I did DCA-DFW-ANC. The flight left DCA in the late morning, and the connection time in DFW wasn't long enough to stop and get food. We ended up having a ground delay after boarding in DFW, and we landed in ANC late, close to 8PM local time, or around midnight DCA time. They ran out of BOB by the time they got to my row, and I was quite hungry by the time I got to ANC. Not sure what type of meal I would be able to pack from home that would sustain me for 12 hours, plus make it through TSA, and the 3.5 hour flight to DFW and the connection. A complimentary meal would have been a welcome offering.
ASFlyer wrote:Alaska has ovens in Y on their entire Boeing fleet, which makes up the majority of the fleet.
In the scenario you mention, you could always have picked up something at DCA to eat along the way. That was a long day without food but there were options with a little planning.
USAirALB wrote:ASFlyer wrote:Alaska has ovens in Y on their entire Boeing fleet, which makes up the majority of the fleet.
In the scenario you mention, you could always have picked up something at DCA to eat along the way. That was a long day without food but there were options with a little planning.
That's interesting-I knew they have ovens in Y on the 737s (and I think the E-Jets also had ovens in the rear galley, correct me if I am wrong) but I assumed they would have removed them given that they shifted to cold BOB after the VX acquisition.
I recognize I am shooting myself in the foot by stating this (and being difficult, after all we are talking about airline food...not exactly gourmet) but I don't eat fast food and I find the food options at DCA (and most airports in the US) to be nasty...worse than anything I have ever been served inflight. I also live only 20 minutes away by Metro from the terminal so I frequently show up at the airport just as boarding begins.
USAirALB wrote:It bothers me whenever people say things like "bring food from home" or "you can last 6 hours without food service". A couple of years back I did DCA-DFW-ANC. The flight left DCA in the late morning, and the connection time in DFW wasn't long enough to stop and get food. We ended up having a ground delay after boarding in DFW, and we landed in ANC late, close to 8PM local time, or around midnight DCA time. They ran out of BOB by the time they got to my row, and I was quite hungry by the time I got to ANC. Not sure what type of meal I would be able to pack from home that would sustain me for 12 hours, plus make it through TSA, and the 3.5 hour flight to DFW and the connection. A complimentary meal would have been a welcome offering.
ASFlyer wrote:I love Cava near the Alaska gates at DCA. The food is really healthy and good. I suppose that's all up to individual tastes though.
USAirALB wrote:ASFlyer wrote:I love Cava near the Alaska gates at DCA. The food is really healthy and good. I suppose that's all up to individual tastes though.
Cava is okay-it's a staple of meeting lunches for almost every industry in DC that one grows sick of it very quickly.
USAirALB wrote:One thing I will say, I am not sure if its directly related to the demise of catering on domestic flights in Y, or simply because more people are paying attention to what they eat, I appreciate the tsome airports seem to be working hard to incorporate local restaurants into their offerings in the terminal. SFO does a great job of that IMO.
twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
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twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BawliBooch wrote:twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
On a 3-5 hour flight in Asia, you would get 2-3 rounds of service in Y. Drinks round (complementary), Hot Meals followed by a Tea/Coffee/Drinks round.
The argument of size doesn't make sense. Being much larger, airlines in the US should have advantage of scale. Meals in Y have gone away on US airlines because of greed. Catering companies charge insane amounts as compared to India or East Asia where an economy hot meal can be catered for as little as $2.5/tray. In contrast, I am told getting a bag of ice on a plane costs $100. Airlines began cutting back at first to keep costs down and then realised they could get away with it.
In Asia, hot meals in Y are the primary differentiator between LCC and Full service carriers. In the US the only difference between flying Southwest and United is the miles. Rest everything is exactly the same. INfact i think Southwest has more legroom in Y than United!
BawliBooch wrote:On a 3-5 hour flight in Asia, you would get 2-3 rounds of service in Y. Drinks round (complementary), Hot Meals followed by a Tea/Coffee/Drinks round.
The argument of size doesn't make sense. Being much larger, airlines in the US should have advantage of scale. Meals in Y have gone away on US airlines because of greed. Catering companies charge insane amounts as compared to India or East Asia where an economy hot meal can be catered for as little as $2.5/tray. In contrast, I am told getting a bag of ice on a plane costs $100. Airlines began cutting back at first to keep costs down and then realised they could get away with it.
In Asia, hot meals in Y are the primary differentiator between LCC and Full service carriers. In the US the only difference between flying Southwest and United is the miles. Rest everything is exactly the same. INfact i think Southwest has more legroom in Y than United!
phatfarmlines wrote:BawliBooch wrote:On a 3-5 hour flight in Asia, you would get 2-3 rounds of service in Y. Drinks round (complementary), Hot Meals followed by a Tea/Coffee/Drinks round.
The argument of size doesn't make sense. Being much larger, airlines in the US should have advantage of scale. Meals in Y have gone away on US airlines because of greed. Catering companies charge insane amounts as compared to India or East Asia where an economy hot meal can be catered for as little as $2.5/tray. In contrast, I am told getting a bag of ice on a plane costs $100. Airlines began cutting back at first to keep costs down and then realised they could get away with it.
In Asia, hot meals in Y are the primary differentiator between LCC and Full service carriers. In the US the only difference between flying Southwest and United is the miles. Rest everything is exactly the same. INfact i think Southwest has more legroom in Y than United!
We haven't had a discussion of this nature in a while on this site, and taking COVID out of the picture which disrupted in-flight service, even the legacy Asian carriers pre-COVID were starting to rein in on their offerings for the 2-3 hour intra-Asian sectors where they're having to compete with LCCs. As an example, look at the SQ takeout-style boxes which are now served on their short sectors.
So I don't think these impacts are relegated to just US or even continental Europe. It's happening where there is some form of LCC competition.
PatrickZ80 wrote:twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
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No, I don't think any airline will offer complementary meals ever again. After all, meals cost money which has to come out of the ticket price. That means that any airline that offers meals will have to charge higher fares than the competition, which doesn't offer meals. The first thing people look at when deciding which airline to fly is the ticket price, so anything that raises the ticket price and can be left out is being left out. Meals are an example of that.
The airline might offer the meals for free, but it's not free for them. The US is a highly competitive market for airlines, every dollar matters. About 30 years ago American Airlines made about $40,000 a year by leaving out one olive from the salad they offered on-board. If a single olive can make that much money, imagine what leaving out the entire salad makes them. Those salads from American Airlines is basically where savings on food started.
You're complaining that you can't get two bags of pretzels for free, however think about what it would cost the airline to provide each passenger with two bags of pretzels. Let's say they can buy pretzels for $1 a bag, so you're asking for $2 a flight from them. Since profit margins in aviation are extremely narrow, those $2 will seriously eat into their revenue. After all, an airline like Delta carried 204 million passengers in 2019. Not all of them are domestic, but a good number of them are. Let's say 130 million domestic passengers. That's $260 million worth of pretzels we're talking about.
If you want two bags of pretzels on board, you can buy them. Buy-on-board programs at least give airlines the chance to cover the costs of their food, and it gives you the opportunity to choose from a wider variety of products. For you that money doesn't make much difference, for the airline it does.
PatrickZ80 wrote:twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No, I don't think any airline will offer complementary meals ever again. After all, meals cost money which has to come out of the ticket price. That means that any airline that offers meals will have to charge higher fares than the competition, which doesn't offer meals. The first thing people look at when deciding which airline to fly is the ticket price, so anything that raises the ticket price and can be left out is being left out. Meals are an example of that.
The airline might offer the meals for free, but it's not free for them. The US is a highly competitive market for airlines, every dollar matters. About 30 years ago American Airlines made about $40,000 a year by leaving out one olive from the salad they offered on-board. If a single olive can make that much money, imagine what leaving out the entire salad makes them. Those salads from American Airlines is basically where savings on food started.
You're complaining that you can't get two bags of pretzels for free, however think about what it would cost the airline to provide each passenger with two bags of pretzels. Let's say they can buy pretzels for $1 a bag, so you're asking for $2 a flight from them. Since profit margins in aviation are extremely narrow, those $2 will seriously eat into their revenue. After all, an airline like Delta carried 204 million passengers in 2019. Not all of them are domestic, but a good number of them are. Let's say 130 million domestic passengers. That's $260 million worth of pretzels we're talking about.
If you want two bags of pretzels on board, you can buy them. Buy-on-board programs at least give airlines the chance to cover the costs of their food, and it gives you the opportunity to choose from a wider variety of products. For you that money doesn't make much difference, for the airline it does.
BawliBooch wrote:In Asia, hot meals in Y are the primary differentiator between LCC and Full service carriers. In the US the only difference between flying Southwest and United is the miles. Rest everything is exactly the same. INfact i think Southwest has more legroom in Y than United!
BawliBooch wrote:twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
On a 3-5 hour flight in Asia, you would get 2-3 rounds of service in Y. Drinks round (complementary), Hot Meals followed by a Tea/Coffee/Drinks round.
The argument of size doesn't make sense. Being much larger, airlines in the US should have advantage of scale. Meals in Y have gone away on US airlines because of greed. Catering companies charge insane amounts as compared to India or East Asia where an economy hot meal can be catered for as little as $2.5/tray. In contrast, I am told getting a bag of ice on a plane costs $100. Airlines began cutting back at first to keep costs down and then realised they could get away with it.
In Asia, hot meals in Y are the primary differentiator between LCC and Full service carriers. In the US the only difference between flying Southwest and United is the miles. Rest everything is exactly the same. INfact i think Southwest has more legroom in Y than United!
CarlosSi wrote:Or just offer meals on board for everybody and everybody has to pay a little extra per ticket whether they want the food or not .
blandy62 wrote:CarlosSi wrote:Or just offer meals on board for everybody and everybody has to pay a little extra per ticket whether they want the food or not .
well isn't it how it was before the airlines decided they would make money out of it
PatrickZ80 wrote:Or you could do as Norwegian did on their long haul flights when they still did them, have people pre-book their meal upon booking the ticket. Meals on Norwegian were pretty expensive, they charged €35 for a meal. Upon booking you were presented with a list of meals which you could choose from and that meal was added to the ticket price just like other optional extras. There was also an option for no meal, which was free.
That way they had a list of how much of each meal they needed to load on each flight and they loaded exactly those amounts of meals. They had a list of which passenger had to have which meal and you always received exactly the meal you picked when you booked. There were no spares thus no unnecessary waste. I believe Scoot does the same on their long haul flights, although they have a wider variety of meals and different prices for them.
Anyway, I think this is a good system. It keeps the ticket price low because you don't have to factor in the meal costs there, those meal costs can make a difference for people who are price-conscious. And those who do want a meal can simply add it to their booking and have a meal on board. No more "which meal would you like" questions on board, that question has already been asked beforehand. And like I said, if 17 people on board ordered meal A and 12 people ordered meal B, they load 17 meals A on board and 12 meals B. People that choose not to add a meal to their booking and thus pay only the fare itself and not the meal costs don't get a meal, after all that's what they opted for.
PatrickZ80 wrote:blandy62 wrote:CarlosSi wrote:Or just offer meals on board for everybody and everybody has to pay a little extra per ticket whether they want the food or not .
well isn't it how it was before the airlines decided they would make money out of it
Very true.
Charging a little extra per ticket might not seem like a big problem, but for many people it is. That little extra can just make the difference between buying a ticket or not buying it, or it can be the difference between booking on one airline or booking on the other.
As an airline you want to keep your ticket price as low as possible, after all the first thing people look at when booking a ticket is the price. Therefor you just can't add a little extra per ticket, that little extra can have a huge impact on the airline revenue. Quite the opposite, airlines are constantly looking at what can be done to lower the ticket price. Anything paid out of those ticket prices is looked at, that includes meals.
F27500 wrote:I often wonder about those BOB meals. Do they ride around with the plane sitting in a stagnant warm cart all day until they're either sold .. or offloaded (and hopefully tossed) at the end of the night? I'd like to think fresh meals are loaded at the beginning of a leg where they are being offered .. or at least at the beginning of a round-trip out of a catering station. Are these carts they're kept in at least refrigerated to keep the food safe?
Rookie87 wrote:twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can always ask for a second bag of pretzels lol
I think that the comparison doesn’t work between US carriers and the Asian carriers who are dwarfed by the US fleets and the size of the US market as a whole. The big 3 have what? 10 or more hubs each?
Which Asian carrier compares to that?
When they did have meals people whined about airplane food regularly. Take it away, people whine they don’t have it. What would adding the meals back add to the US airlines? If DL had hot meals in domestic coach, would you exclusively fly them no matter the price? The honest answer is no for the majority of people so there that goes
What I am curious about though is a cost structure on similar length/size route. The transcons before Covid did introduce complimentary food, a box with a sandwich, chips and cookie etc
PHLspecial wrote:Rookie87 wrote:twosoun wrote:Does anyone else think its insane that US carriers dont serve meals on flights that are transcontinental? Airlines in Asia regularly serve meals on any flight greater than about an hour and we cant even get two bags of pretzels on a 5 hour flight.
Do we think the industry will ever move to complimentary meals in Y here in the US? (not including HI)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can always ask for a second bag of pretzels lol
I think that the comparison doesn’t work between US carriers and the Asian carriers who are dwarfed by the US fleets and the size of the US market as a whole. The big 3 have what? 10 or more hubs each?
Which Asian carrier compares to that?
When they did have meals people whined about airplane food regularly. Take it away, people whine they don’t have it. What would adding the meals back add to the US airlines? If DL had hot meals in domestic coach, would you exclusively fly them no matter the price? The honest answer is no for the majority of people so there that goes
What I am curious about though is a cost structure on similar length/size route. The transcons before Covid did introduce complimentary food, a box with a sandwich, chips and cookie etc
What is crazy is AA and UA do not serve food on those flights to HNL. They are 8+ hour flights and the only thing you get in Y is a bag of chips. It's longer than the TATL flights to Europe from the east coast. I'm shocked that the short TATL flights even get meals. It's sometimes cheaper to fly to Europe and get better meal service than flight to Hawaii.
I think the U.S. will move away from meals to keep cost low as possible.
PHLspecial wrote:What is crazy is AA and UA do not serve food on those flights to HNL. They are 8+ hour flights and the only thing you get in Y is a bag of chips. It's longer than the TATL flights to Europe from the east coast. I'm shocked that the short TATL flights even get meals. It's sometimes cheaper to fly to Europe and get better meal service than flight to Hawaii.
I think the U.S. will move away from meals to keep cost low as possible.
Rookie87 wrote:TATL the consumer has options so they need to match or have a slight edge over any competition.
Rookie87 wrote:With HA being the only one who offers food (I think) why would the others offer it if they still make money off the flights. I remember a while back AA added meals (not hot) in coach from DFW and maybe ORD? Not 100% sure but vaguely remember adding something for coach that was above a bag of pretzels. Same with the JFK transcons to SF and LA
phatfarmlines wrote:PHLspecial wrote:What is crazy is AA and UA do not serve food on those flights to HNL. They are 8+ hour flights and the only thing you get in Y is a bag of chips. It's longer than the TATL flights to Europe from the east coast. I'm shocked that the short TATL flights even get meals. It's sometimes cheaper to fly to Europe and get better meal service than flight to Hawaii.
I think the U.S. will move away from meals to keep cost low as possible.
I believe this is a (extreme) COVID decision made by AA, plus a good opportunity for AA (DP) to see how far they can push the envelope on service degradation while using COVID to mask the decision. Pre-COVID I believe AA was serving complementary means on the DFW/ORD to Hawaii nonstops, which aligned with DL/UA competitive offerings on similar stage lengths.Rookie87 wrote:TATL the consumer has options so they need to match or have a slight edge over any competition.
Pre-COVID you were already starting to observe some of the legacy European carriers in this space offering a "buy-up" menu for coach passengers, in addition to the watered down complementary offerings. I believe this trend will continue as LCCs return to expanding in the Transatlantic space.Rookie87 wrote:With HA being the only one who offers food (I think) why would the others offer it if they still make money off the flights. I remember a while back AA added meals (not hot) in coach from DFW and maybe ORD? Not 100% sure but vaguely remember adding something for coach that was above a bag of pretzels. Same with the JFK transcons to SF and LA
This is correct, and on the JFK transcons, coach customers flying on the 321Ts were offered the "Bistro Bag" style deli snack.
PatrickZ80 wrote:The first thing people look at when deciding which airline to fly is the ticket price, so anything that raises the ticket price and can be left out is being left out. Meals are an example of that.
MartijnNL wrote:For me that is simply not true. The ticket price might indeed be the first thing I look at when searching flights. But when it comes to booking flights the schedule usually plays a bigger role. Most of the time I choose KLM over easyJet or Norwegian. Because five or six daily flights offer much more flexibility than one daily flight or even less than that. Why would I want to arrive at an airport close to midnight when everything has already shut down? When KLM or another legacy airline can get me there in the morning, the afternoon, the evening and almost everything in between? To save thirty euros? No thanks.