Now may not be the time, but in a post-pandemic world, do we see any of the airlines adding new clubs in cities that do not have them? For example I see the following markets to support a club (typically business heavy markets). BTW, I was surprised to see no Vegas clubs!
AA:
CVG
IND
SAN
IAD
MSP
MCI
MSY
MEM
FLL
CUN
LAS
DL:
CMH
MCI
STL
LAS
UA:
MCI
BNA
CVG
SMF
JFK
CUN
LAS
AS:
SAN
LAS
DFW/DAL
HNL
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
I know these aren't necessarily money makers, but I wonder if it would be a good idea for airlines to share club. For instance, Delta has a huge club in Cincinnati. They don't need the space. They could easily share with AA now that AA is in the same concourse.
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- BWIAirport
- Posts: 1602
- Joined:
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
BWI has an unaffiliated club in Concourse D/E that caters more towards its European and African carriers FWIW, not sure if that's in the scope of what you're looking for
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
BWIAirport wrote:BWI has an unaffiliated club in Concourse D/E that caters more towards its European and African carriers FWIW, not sure if that's in the scope of what you're looking for
As a Cincinnati Admirals Club member, I'm always hopeful that more clubs will open up. More on your point, it would be great if these unaffiliated clubs allowed access to airline club members.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
A couple of months ago I read that AA had a list of cities it was apparently considering either opening new locations or reopening old lounges that had previously closed. IIRC, clubs in BUF/BDL/GSO/SJU/CCS/FRA/SAN/SCL/IAD have all closed in the past decade. CCS obviously isn't reopening, and frankly I don't see any international locations regaining lounges either...easier to contract out. The IAD lounge is still intact, although AA has downsized Dulles so much that I cannot see the space reopening. Pre-pandemic I was talking to AS agents at IAD who said Alaska was exploring the possibility of opening a lounge there. Obviously a rumor but interesting nonetheless.
DL was rumored to open a lounge in CLT as soon as they move into the upcoming new concourse there. The renderings for the new concourse actually feature a SkyClub, and I would assume that CLT had to have gotten the approval from Delta to incorporate the lounge into the rendering.
Frankly the only benefit to a dedicated airport lounge IMO is help during IRROPS. With the expansion of Amex CLs and the proliferation of Priority Pass, there is less of a need today for a dedicated airport lounge than there was say 20 years ago.
DL was rumored to open a lounge in CLT as soon as they move into the upcoming new concourse there. The renderings for the new concourse actually feature a SkyClub, and I would assume that CLT had to have gotten the approval from Delta to incorporate the lounge into the rendering.
Frankly the only benefit to a dedicated airport lounge IMO is help during IRROPS. With the expansion of Amex CLs and the proliferation of Priority Pass, there is less of a need today for a dedicated airport lounge than there was say 20 years ago.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
United already has a Club in Las Vegas. I agree that JFK at some point depending on their eventual Terminal assignment. I doubt we'll see the other ones on the UA list.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
seatback wrote:
AA:
CVG
I'll take the under on that one... way, way under. AA had 610K enplaned passengers in DTW in 2019. AA closed its DTW club right after 9/11 and never came back.
CVG Airports' annual airports stats hyperlink doesn't give enplanments by carrier. BTS is mainline only and AA doesn't even rank in the top 5 ag CVG in 2019. If anybody can provide the total AA + Eagle enplanment count for CVG in 2019, please do.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
seatback wrote:Now may not be the time, but in a post-pandemic world, do we see any of the airlines adding new clubs in cities that do not have them? For example I see the following markets to support a club (typically business heavy markets). BTW, I was surprised to see no Vegas clubs!
L
I can't see more than one or two of those ever coming to fruition unless the fundamentals of airport space change markedly and business travelers return. What's the revenue-enhancement case for any of those given what the mix of passengers is like right now or in any reasonable near term? Person who gets drunk before coming to LAS and accidentally buys a lounge pass?
I don't mean to be flippant, but this seems to be exactly the wrong time for expanding lounges: little international service, soft premium demand, planes packed with bottom-of-the-bucket infrequent flyers, sky-high construction costs. Even post-COVID, things are likely to stay more bare bones and leaned out. I don't think we're ever returning to a pre-COVID normal.
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- DeltaRules
- Posts: 5886
- Joined:
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
CMH is supposedly planning a common use lounge on Concourse B, which is used by AA/AC/NK/UA.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
Is the funding method changing from airline-based to more generic? Is that a trend?
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- AAtakeMeAway
- Posts: 760
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Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
Regarding AA @ SAN, the Airspace Lounge that occupies the former AC space is a partner lounge so AC members have access. Pre-Covid the lounge had AC staff ("AAngels") staffed at the desk for check in and flight assistance. Now, the AAngels are no longer there (I've read they were offered positions at SNA) and desk is staffed with Airspace staff, so no flight assistance.
With all that in mind, I doubt a full-fledged AC is in SAN's near future.
With all that in mind, I doubt a full-fledged AC is in SAN's near future.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
MIflyer12 wrote:seatback wrote:
AA:
CVG
I'll take the under on that one... way, way under. AA had 610K enplaned passengers in DTW in 2019. AA closed its DTW club right after 9/11 and never came back.
CVG Airports' annual airports stats hyperlink doesn't give enplanments by carrier. BTS is mainline only and AA doesn't even rank in the top 5 ag CVG in 2019. If anybody can provide the total AA + Eagle enplanment count for CVG in 2019, please do.
Isn't AA (mainline plus regional) number 2 in CVG behind Delta?
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
seatback wrote:Now may not be the time, but in a post-pandemic world, do we see any of the airlines adding new clubs in cities that do not have them? For example I see the following markets to support a club (typically business heavy markets). BTW, I was surprised to see no Vegas clubs!
AA:
CVG
IND
SAN
IAD
MSP
MCI
MSY
MEM
FLL
CUN
LAS
DL:
CMH
MCI
STL
LAS
UA:
MCI
BNA
CVG
SMF
JFK
CUN
LAS
AS:
SAN
LAS
DFW/DAL
HNL
My 2 cents based on anecdotal experience as a UA 1K and seeing that the US 3 frequently "copy" patterns when it comes to their product, including clubs.
1) Directionally, I see the club product improving further post-pandemic. Right now, business travel is still badly hurt to the point where UA Polaris Lounges remain curtailed. While they will come back, I have also seen the UA Clubs outside of hubs be very light in terms of attendance, as well as a number of AA and DL clubs that I've seen from the inside thanks to int'l AA flights and DL Amex Plat affiliations.
2) I would not underestimate the effect of programs like Centurion and Priority Pass to effectively siphon off demand at a number of the locations you’re suggesting.
AA:
CVG – Existing Centurion Lounge partner location and Priority Pass as well. CVG seems to have been on a downward trajectory for a while. To be honest, I was surprised how much unused space there was at CVG on my last visit there. Somewhat amazing as the area didn't strike me as particularly depressed. Maybe CVG works better for Prime Air these days…
SAN – Existing Priority Pass location
IAD – Most AA premium traffic sits at DCA, no?
MCI, MSY, MEM - Not enough critical mass IMHO.
FLL, CUN - A bit too low yield overall, no?
LAS – Existing Centurion Lounge location
DL:
STL – Another former proud hub a la CVG
LAS – Existing Centurion Lounge location
UA:
MCI, BNA, SMF – Not enough critical mass IMHO.
CVG – Existing Centurion Lounge partner location and Priority Pass as well.
JFK – No doubt that one will be re-established with p.s. coming back to JFK. In 20/20 it seems like a mistake for UA to have abandoned JFK p.s. for EWR given that p.s. never aimed at connecting traffic on say LH TATL.
CUN – A bit too low yield overall, no? Having passed through there last week on UA, I wish you were right
LAS – Existing Centurion Lounge location
AS:
SAN – Existing Priority Pass location
LAS – Existing Centurion Lounge location
DFW/DAL – Existing Centurion Lounge location
HNL – Existing Priority Pass location
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
I haven't previously considered Centurion and Priority Pass lounges in the past as reasons for not adding a club. However, these clubs do not provide access to airline personnel who can provide assistance more quickly than in the terminal.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
Lounge access in the US is wasteful in terms of space and money. After seeing how lounge access works in Europe and Asia (shared, reciprocal, and guaranteed for all first/biz passengers), it makes you want to shake your head when you see how things are done in the US. We're stuck in the stone age.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
seatback wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:seatback wrote:
AA:
CVG
I'll take the under on that one... way, way under. AA had 610K enplaned passengers in DTW in 2019. AA closed its DTW club right after 9/11 and never came back.
CVG Airports' annual airports stats hyperlink doesn't give enplanments by carrier. BTS is mainline only and AA doesn't even rank in the top 5 ag CVG in 2019. If anybody can provide the total AA + Eagle enplanment count for CVG in 2019, please do.
Isn't AA (mainline plus regional) number 2 in CVG behind Delta?
Yes combined AA is #2 and growing rapidly. They’ve made a big push adding CVG-AUS/BOS/PHX (also AS CVG-SEA) plus increasing capacity on existing routes. Now they just need to add CVG-LAX.
A club is definitely a ways off, but they certainly have an interest in serving the market much more than they have been doing in the past.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
seatback wrote:I haven't previously considered Centurion and Priority Pass lounges in the past as reasons for not adding a club. However, these clubs do not provide access to airline personnel who can provide assistance more quickly than in the terminal.
While it's certainly true that a club run by a given airline *can* render valuable assistance, especially durring IRROPS, a smaller station for a given carrier will generally have fewer affected pax to handle. I mean, 95% of the time it's not the proverbial snowstorm in ORD during Christmas when you'd *really* need that kind of help. Besides, as a UA 1K for example, I'm protected and second in line for rebooking. The few times my flights get rebooked, UA routes me on the next available flight automatically and sends out an update. They even reroute on partners or competitors if needed. One can also call the 1K line.
AA and DL treat their elites better than their average customers as well, as does virtually any other business. And when you think about who the airline lounge customers are, very few of us pay a one time fee to get into a club as we've already paid through all the tickets we buy. And some of us have bought CO President's Club life memberships when that was still around, while many others are getting comped when flying international in economy, and everyone who flies business on international flights gets in as well. For example, my AA business class flight to CUN last weekend got me into the AA Admiral's Club, and I'm not an elite with them. But even there, in case of a delay I'm sure their business class pax w/o status would be handled better than Economy w/o status, likely on par with their elites.
So then, crowds aside, why not use Centurion instead since the food is much better and I don't have to pay extra for non-house drinks? Heck, in normal times I could take a shower and get a complimentary manicure there as well. And there it won't matter who I fly, could be NK in the last row of economy. So these Centurion and Priority Pass lounges are really cool in the sense that loyalty or business class aren't needed, i.e. they make economic sense to operate in locations where a single carrier would struggle to pay for the operation of a dedicated lounge.
NorseFA wrote:Lounge access in the US is wasteful in terms of space and money. After seeing how lounge access works in Europe and Asia (shared, reciprocal, and guaranteed for all first/biz passengers), it makes you want to shake your head when you see how things are done in the US. We're stuck in the stone age.
I assume you're referring to the contract lounges that complement the airline lounges, e.g. SATS in SIN vs. Silverkris or something like the shared *A lounge at CDG. If so, we've got the above contract lounges in the US that are shared, as well as *A lounge LAX @ TBIT for example. And you could also get into the LH lounges in places like IAD for example when travelling domestically on UA even through the UA Club at IAD wouldn't let you in. Of course you could also use the TK lounge there with Priority Pass, so here too you have shared / reciprocal access.
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- FlyingJhawk
- Posts: 313
- Joined:
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
I had a brief chat with certain very high profile individual at DL just prior to COVID hitting and he told me that "Kansas City is very good to us" and will be getting a SkyClub when the new terminal opens. No idea if this is still in the works but the new MCI terminal doesn't open until Spring of 2023 so plenty of time for traffic to rebound at, or above, pre-COVID levels.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
Actually had COVID not happened their was an airport plan in it at STL with a DL lounge (it could have also hypothetically been UA, but very unlikely).
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
ua900 wrote:seatback wrote:I haven't previously considered Centurion and Priority Pass lounges in the past as reasons for not adding a club. However, these clubs do not provide access to airline personnel who can provide assistance more quickly than in the terminal.
While it's certainly true that a club run by a given airline *can* render valuable assistance, especially durring IRROPS, a smaller station for a given carrier will generally have fewer affected pax to handle. I mean, 95% of the time it's not the proverbial snowstorm in ORD during Christmas when you'd *really* need that kind of help. Besides, as a UA 1K for example, I'm protected and second in line for rebooking. The few times my flights get rebooked, UA routes me on the next available flight automatically and sends out an update. They even reroute on partners or competitors if needed. One can also call the 1K line.
AA and DL treat their elites better than their average customers as well, as does virtually any other business. And when you think about who the airline lounge customers are, very few of us pay a one time fee to get into a club as we've already paid through all the tickets we buy. And some of us have bought CO President's Club life memberships when that was still around, while many others are getting comped when flying international in economy, and everyone who flies business on international flights gets in as well. For example, my AA business class flight to CUN last weekend got me into the AA Admiral's Club, and I'm not an elite with them. But even there, in case of a delay I'm sure their business class pax w/o status would be handled better than Economy w/o status, likely on par with their elites.
So then, crowds aside, why not use Centurion instead since the food is much better and I don't have to pay extra for non-house drinks? Heck, in normal times I could take a shower and get a complimentary manicure there as well. And there it won't matter who I fly, could be NK in the last row of economy. So these Centurion and Priority Pass lounges are really cool in the sense that loyalty or business class aren't needed, i.e. they make economic sense to operate in locations where a single carrier would struggle to pay for the operation of a dedicated lounge.
Agreed. But, these lounges are not often in the same terminal as the airline I'm flying on. I don't want to trek across an airport to gain lounge access.NorseFA wrote:Lounge access in the US is wasteful in terms of space and money. After seeing how lounge access works in Europe and Asia (shared, reciprocal, and guaranteed for all first/biz passengers), it makes you want to shake your head when you see how things are done in the US. We're stuck in the stone age.
I assume you're referring to the contract lounges that complement the airline lounges, e.g. SATS in SIN vs. Silverkris or something like the shared *A lounge at CDG. If so, we've got the above contract lounges in the US that are shared, as well as *A lounge LAX @ TBIT for example. And you could also get into the LH lounges in places like IAD for example when travelling domestically on UA even through the UA Club at IAD wouldn't let you in. Of course you could also use the TK lounge there with Priority Pass, so here too you have shared / reciprocal access.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
Agreed. But, these lounges are not often in the same terminal as the airline I'm flying on. I don't want to trek across an airport to gain lounge access.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
seatback wrote:Agreed. But, these lounges are not often in the same terminal as the airline I'm flying on. I don't want to trek across an airport to gain lounge access.
I hear you, I don't get exited about it either. But if the choice is between "a lounge" vs. "no lounge" at a given airport (can't always fly the predominant carrier at every mid-sized airport) and there's a contract lounge then I'd rather trek than have nothing at all in terms of facilities. If the #1 carrier has a dedicated lounge and #2-5 carriers pax need to share a contract lounge to make the numbers work, that's still OK in my book since at the end of the day it presents smaller airports with a viable option to serve all passengers better. If the business of #2-5 carriers improve over time, they can always get their own dedicated lounge down the line.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
ua900 wrote:seatback wrote:Agreed. But, these lounges are not often in the same terminal as the airline I'm flying on. I don't want to trek across an airport to gain lounge access.
I hear you, I don't get exited about it either. But if the choice is between "a lounge" vs. "no lounge" at a given airport (can't always fly the predominant carrier at every mid-sized airport) and there's a contract lounge then I'd rather trek than have nothing at all in terms of facilities. If the #1 carrier has a dedicated lounge and #2-5 carriers pax need to share a contract lounge to make the numbers work, that's still OK in my book since at the end of the day it presents smaller airports with a viable option to serve all passengers better. If the business of #2-5 carriers improve over time, they can always get their own dedicated lounge down the line.
Yes, but this isn't really happening on a wide scale basis. For instance, you would think AA and UA would get together and say, "hey let's share the UA MSP United Club and share costs". They operate out of the same terminal...makes sense for everyone involved. The same could happen in second tier markets like MCI, STL, IND, CVG, MKE, and so on...
For my home market in CVG, Delta has a HUGE club with plenty of space. AA operates in the same terminal, AA could share costs and put a customer service agent in there, and pretty easily, you have a new Admiral's Club. I'm sure there are many other similar examples.
Re: Any New Airline Clubs in the Pipeline?
seatback wrote:ua900 wrote:seatback wrote:Agreed. But, these lounges are not often in the same terminal as the airline I'm flying on. I don't want to trek across an airport to gain lounge access.
I hear you, I don't get exited about it either. But if the choice is between "a lounge" vs. "no lounge" at a given airport (can't always fly the predominant carrier at every mid-sized airport) and there's a contract lounge then I'd rather trek than have nothing at all in terms of facilities. If the #1 carrier has a dedicated lounge and #2-5 carriers pax need to share a contract lounge to make the numbers work, that's still OK in my book since at the end of the day it presents smaller airports with a viable option to serve all passengers better. If the business of #2-5 carriers improve over time, they can always get their own dedicated lounge down the line.
Yes, but this isn't really happening on a wide scale basis. For instance, you would think AA and UA would get together and say, "hey let's share the UA MSP United Club and share costs". They operate out of the same terminal...makes sense for everyone involved. The same could happen in second tier markets like MCI, STL, IND, CVG, MKE, and so on...
For my home market in CVG, Delta has a HUGE club with plenty of space. AA operates in the same terminal, AA could share costs and put a customer service agent in there, and pretty easily, you have a new Admiral's Club. I'm sure there are many other similar examples.
IMO the US 3 won't ever share their branded clubs, and I can see why, no matter how many cost sharing benefits that might yield in a smaller market. There are indeed lots of other similar examples where they *could* in order to share costs. But as I 1K on a UA ticket, I'd question it if UA would route me to a club that's branded as Admirals Club, even though I know what they look like from the inside since I also fly AA sometimes and don't think the club product differs too much. The biggest argument I could see for the US 3 not doing that is that a given customer might actually end up liking the other brand, switching their spend to the competion the next time a ticket is booked.
What I'm saying though is that I could see UA route me to a non-branded club, e.g. in your home market to the Club @ CVG, as they already do in some other markets like SIN with the SATS lounge, in effort to offer *something* and then, if they one day grow their business at CVG enough, open a UA club there.