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3D101CA
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Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:35 pm

BOM has been underserved to North America compared to DEL.

It is because on the lack of runway capacity? BOM only has one functioning runway that can be used at all times, while DEL will have four runways after one is fully constructed.

Being BOM-EWR on United and AC BOM-YYZ, there is nothing else.
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:52 pm

Plenty of carriers in Europe and the Middle East that can provide one-stop connections.
 
codc10
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:59 pm

DEL is a larger market with more capacity. BOM is a fair bit farther away from North America than DEL and requires Russian overflight, which NA carriers will not currently do.
 
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747classic
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:12 pm

Only the east coast of N-America can be reached non stop.
Travel demand is too low to justify direct flights to multiple N-American destinations out of BOM
See : https://www.flightsfrom.com/BOM
The great circle distance BOM-EWR = 6784 Nm, the only direct flight offered at the moment has a scheduled flying time of approx 16 hours.
EWR-BOM is offered by United (789) and Air India(777-300ER)
YYZ-BOM will be offered in the autumn of 2022 by Air Canada (777-200LR)

Most flights are one stop code sharing flights and operate via AMS,LHR, CDG , DWC etc
Last edited by 747classic on Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:13 pm

LOL. Ask an Average South Indian and they'll say MAA is underserved with zero non-stop to the US.
 
SkyEye350
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:28 pm

Well BOM is not really an IT hub compared to BLR, HYD, MAA plus DEL can handle more capacity and is closer to North America compared to BOM. BOM is slowly fading away IMHO and it’s honestly unsurprising. If BOM wants to remain relevant that new airport can’t come soon enough
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:52 pm

phugoid1982 wrote:
LOL. Ask an Average South Indian and they'll say MAA is underserved with zero non-stop to the US.


Dang it! Beat me to it! Being of South Indian parentage, ATL-MAA is a pipe dream route of mine.

Anyways, such routes could pobably have the demand in a few years time, as the Indian diaspora increases and the Indian economy also increases, but there are several operational deficiencies. For one, they are long, so you're gonna need more crews, more fuel, etc. That won't come cheap. Second, you cannot go through Russia and Afghanistan, so you have to add more flight time and fuel. Third, other than specialized long range aircraft like A350-900ULR and 787-9, there aren't many aircraft that can do these routes. Lastly, there is a pretty common mentality/stereotype that the ME3 (even the European 3) are superior to the US3. I'm not gonna judge whether that's true or not, but that could play into whether a flight is profitable or not.

One day I think S. India- USA routes can become more plentiful, but for now they are too long and thin to be realistic.
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:20 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
phugoid1982 wrote:
LOL. Ask an Average South Indian and they'll say MAA is underserved with zero non-stop to the US.


Dang it! Beat me to it! Being of South Indian parentage, ATL-MAA is a pipe dream route of mine.

Anyways, such routes could pobably have the demand in a few years time, as the Indian diaspora increases and the Indian economy also increases, but there are several operational deficiencies. For one, they are long, so you're gonna need more crews, more fuel, etc. That won't come cheap. Second, you cannot go through Russia and Afghanistan, so you have to add more flight time and fuel. Third, other than specialized long range aircraft like A350-900ULR and 787-9, there aren't many aircraft that can do these routes. Lastly, there is a pretty common mentality/stereotype that the ME3 (even the European 3) are superior to the US3. I'm not gonna judge whether that's true or not, but that could play into whether a flight is profitable or not.

One day I think S. India- USA routes can become more plentiful, but for now they are too long and thin to be realistic.


I'm of South Indian descent too. Haven't been to Chennai in more than 10 years but especially from where I grew up in Puerto Rico, such a pain to connect to the mainland US and then Europe. It was Jet Airways I flew with last through their defunct scissor hub although have to say BRU was less than impressive as an airport. ATL-MAA could work. Besides, isn't Georgia Tech 75% Tamil...LOL. I picked UIUC over GT when I was in college years ago but really kicked myself in the nuts when after growing up in a tropical country had no idea how cold central Illinois was.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:50 pm

I asked a similar question several years ago, and the answer I received was the historic Indian diaspora to North America tends to be from Northern Indian states with DEL as their logical gateway (with rail/bus links), and the more recent influx from the tech-heavy Southern Indian states.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:11 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
phugoid1982 wrote:
LOL. Ask an Average South Indian and they'll say MAA is underserved with zero non-stop to the US.


Lastly, there is a pretty common mentality/stereotype that the ME3 (even the European 3) are superior to the US3. I'm not gonna judge whether that's true or not, but that could play into whether a flight is profitable or not.
.


My brother in law has an office in BOM, from the west coast USA he always takes QR. While I generally find the US 3 as good in business as the EU 3, I would not argue with his choice of QR.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:33 pm

mercure1 wrote:
I asked a similar question several years ago, and the answer I received was the historic Indian diaspora to North America tends to be from Northern Indian states with DEL as their logical gateway (with rail/bus links), and the more recent influx from the tech-heavy Southern Indian states.


This is true for the Indian community here in Vancouver, which is overwhelmingly Sikh, working-class, and hailing from Punjab state. This dates back to 1906, when farmers from Punjab emigrated to BC to help build the railroad, facing terrible discrimination and hatred all the while. Almost all the Vancouver-India traffic is VFR to Delhi or Amritsar, the latter requiring a 7 hour train ride until the Delhi-Katra Expressway is completed God knows when.

But my understanding is, in the U.S., most Indians are professionals from Maharashtra, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu and AP due to the restrictive American immigration system. I would have thought there'd be plenty of tech and financial demand for nonstop BOM flights from SFO, LAX, SEA, PDX (Intel in Beaverton and Hillsboro), AUS, SLC, DEN, PIT, etc.

phugoid1982 wrote:
LOL. Ask an Average South Indian and they'll say MAA is underserved with zero non-stop to the US.


I always wondered what the O&D demand drivers were between the U.S. and India. I know tech is big in BOM and BLR, plus finance/venture capitalists in BOM. MAA has a large pharma, aerospace and automotive industry so I could see LAX, DTW, SEA and EWR being possible nonstop ideas. I'd be interested in seeing U.S.-India O&D demand numbers.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:05 am

DEL also has more nonstops to the US since it is AI's primary hub, the only Indian airline flying nonstops to the US.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:05 am

phugoid1982 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
phugoid1982 wrote:
LOL. Ask an Average South Indian and they'll say MAA is underserved with zero non-stop to the US.


Dang it! Beat me to it! Being of South Indian parentage, ATL-MAA is a pipe dream route of mine.

Anyways, such routes could pobably have the demand in a few years time, as the Indian diaspora increases and the Indian economy also increases, but there are several operational deficiencies. For one, they are long, so you're gonna need more crews, more fuel, etc. That won't come cheap. Second, you cannot go through Russia and Afghanistan, so you have to add more flight time and fuel. Third, other than specialized long range aircraft like A350-900ULR and 787-9, there aren't many aircraft that can do these routes. Lastly, there is a pretty common mentality/stereotype that the ME3 (even the European 3) are superior to the US3. I'm not gonna judge whether that's true or not, but that could play into whether a flight is profitable or not.

One day I think S. India- USA routes can become more plentiful, but for now they are too long and thin to be realistic.


I'm of South Indian descent too. Haven't been to Chennai in more than 10 years but especially from where I grew up in Puerto Rico, such a pain to connect to the mainland US and then Europe. It was Jet Airways I flew with last through their defunct scissor hub although have to say BRU was less than impressive as an airport. ATL-MAA could work. Besides, isn't Georgia Tech 75% Tamil...LOL. I picked UIUC over GT when I was in college years ago but really kicked myself in the nuts when after growing up in a tropical country had no idea how cold central Illinois was.


That is true indeed bro! For years, DL pax had to connect through Europe to get to places like JNB, ACC, and LOS, but now, those are imprtant African destinations for DL. The South Indian market will someday turn out to be like that. The demand exists, its just that there are a few operational problems. Though I do wonder, if DL invests in the A350-900ULR for ATL-MAA, the route could work. Its just that where else could they put the ULR on? If they can't figure that out, then there's no place for it in the fleet.
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:26 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
phugoid1982 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:

Dang it! Beat me to it! Being of South Indian parentage, ATL-MAA is a pipe dream route of mine.

Anyways, such routes could pobably have the demand in a few years time, as the Indian diaspora increases and the Indian economy also increases, but there are several operational deficiencies. For one, they are long, so you're gonna need more crews, more fuel, etc. That won't come cheap. Second, you cannot go through Russia and Afghanistan, so you have to add more flight time and fuel. Third, other than specialized long range aircraft like A350-900ULR and 787-9, there aren't many aircraft that can do these routes. Lastly, there is a pretty common mentality/stereotype that the ME3 (even the European 3) are superior to the US3. I'm not gonna judge whether that's true or not, but that could play into whether a flight is profitable or not.

One day I think S. India- USA routes can become more plentiful, but for now they are too long and thin to be realistic.


I'm of South Indian descent too. Haven't been to Chennai in more than 10 years but especially from where I grew up in Puerto Rico, such a pain to connect to the mainland US and then Europe. It was Jet Airways I flew with last through their defunct scissor hub although have to say BRU was less than impressive as an airport. ATL-MAA could work. Besides, isn't Georgia Tech 75% Tamil...LOL. I picked UIUC over GT when I was in college years ago but really kicked myself in the nuts when after growing up in a tropical country had no idea how cold central Illinois was.


That is true indeed bro! For years, DL pax had to connect through Europe to get to places like JNB, ACC, and LOS, but now, those are imprtant African destinations for DL. The South Indian market will someday turn out to be like that. The demand exists, its just that there are a few operational problems. Though I do wonder, if DL invests in the A350-900ULR for ATL-MAA, the route could work. Its just that where else could they put the ULR on? If they can't figure that out, then there's no place for it in the fleet.


That's true. My feeling is like you said if you can make those previously unserved/underserved African destinations work MAA should work. The argument that a lot of India doesn't work from the US nonstop because it's too long and low yielding VFR traffic can also made for some of the aforementioned destinations yet they seem to working even though they are shorter. The A350-900ULR could work but they are really are going have to capture some premium traffic to make it work. Forgetting about airspace closures, ATL-MAA is ~9000 miles and the ULR has quoted range of 11155 miles. Now I feel the eastbound will be a piece of cake but I wonder if they westbound might take a hit even thought it would likely depart early morning/midnight or if they'll just fly the sector eastwards the "long way" and take advantage of the jet stream?
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:07 pm

phugoid1982 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
phugoid1982 wrote:

I'm of South Indian descent too. Haven't been to Chennai in more than 10 years but especially from where I grew up in Puerto Rico, such a pain to connect to the mainland US and then Europe. It was Jet Airways I flew with last through their defunct scissor hub although have to say BRU was less than impressive as an airport. ATL-MAA could work. Besides, isn't Georgia Tech 75% Tamil...LOL. I picked UIUC over GT when I was in college years ago but really kicked myself in the nuts when after growing up in a tropical country had no idea how cold central Illinois was.


That is true indeed bro! For years, DL pax had to connect through Europe to get to places like JNB, ACC, and LOS, but now, those are imprtant African destinations for DL. The South Indian market will someday turn out to be like that. The demand exists, its just that there are a few operational problems. Though I do wonder, if DL invests in the A350-900ULR for ATL-MAA, the route could work. Its just that where else could they put the ULR on? If they can't figure that out, then there's no place for it in the fleet.


That's true. My feeling is like you said if you can make those previously unserved/underserved African destinations work MAA should work. The argument that a lot of India doesn't work from the US nonstop because it's too long and low yielding VFR traffic can also made for some of the aforementioned destinations yet they seem to working even though they are shorter. The A350-900ULR could work but they are really are going have to capture some premium traffic to make it work. Forgetting about airspace closures, ATL-MAA is ~9000 miles and the ULR has quoted range of 11155 miles. Now I feel the eastbound will be a piece of cake but I wonder if they westbound might take a hit even thought it would likely depart early morning/midnight or if they'll just fly the sector eastwards the "long way" and take advantage of the jet stream?


The jet stream proposition is interesting. You also wouldn't have to worry about overflying afghanistan or russia when flying back to ATL or whatever. Hence, why this route may only really be viable once the Indian economy has grown even more and when Russia/Afghanistan airspace closures relax.

As for the premium traffic, lots of Tamil people (even Malayalis, Telugus, other south indians) are settling into wealthy suburbs in ATL. Certainly the population can afford it, though I will say, we can be price sensitive! (parents lying about kids age to get reduced prices at a theme park for example.) There are also a lot of Indians working in IT field in ATL, some even for DL!

As of now, I doubt DL would want to expand to ULR ops beyond ATL-JNB and SYD-LAX. But, ATL-MAA is worth looking at, due to the high amount of GA tech students, growing IT jobs in both cities, and large diasporic communities. Also, DL wouldn't have competition in Chennai, whereas AA is serving BLR from SEA and UA already flies to BOM/DEL/BLR.
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:15 pm

I was just about to correct my post. Assuming airspace closures relax I plugged MAA-ATL going eastbound via DYR (Anadyr), Russia as a way point which is a popular alternate and the nonstop is only 10,000 miles! Very doable. If you avoid Russian airspace it adds another 800 miles so getting close to max range. The ATL-MAA sector is about 9500 miles. I mimicked the AA JFK-DEL routing avoiding Russian an Afghan airspace so not bad. Still, I doubt could profitably operate the route without overflying Russia as so many airlines are finding out with Asia routes. Like you said, Indians are very price sensitive but a fair amount in the IT sector, Delta and Lockheed Martin could definitely help boost premium traffic. It's funny, when I was young the trips we made to India were on godawful Air India and a few times on LH. In my dad's final years when he went with my mom they flew EK business and I think first on the way back because he wanted to enjoy the trip!
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:08 pm

phugoid1982 wrote:
I was just about to correct my post. Assuming airspace closures relax I plugged MAA-ATL going eastbound via DYR (Anadyr), Russia as a way point which is a popular alternate and the nonstop is only 10,000 miles! Very doable. If you avoid Russian airspace it adds another 800 miles so getting close to max range. The ATL-MAA sector is about 9500 miles. I mimicked the AA JFK-DEL routing avoiding Russian an Afghan airspace so not bad. Still, I doubt could profitably operate the route without overflying Russia as so many airlines are finding out with Asia routes. Like you said, Indians are very price sensitive but a fair amount in the IT sector, Delta and Lockheed Martin could definitely help boost premium traffic. It's funny, when I was young the trips we made to India were on godawful Air India and a few times on LH. In my dad's final years when he went with my mom they flew EK business and I think first on the way back because he wanted to enjoy the trip!



http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ATL-MAA,+J ... M,+JFK-MAA

Here is a map detailing routes from ATL and JFK to BOM/DEL/MAA. ATL-MAA is about 500 mi longer than ATL-BOM, and the only route longer than 9000 mi on that map. This is of course, overflying Russia and Afghanistan.

Regardless of Russian/Afghanistani airspace being used or not on the Eastbound leg, I think that the westbound leg could bypass the russian/afghanistani airspace by simply going TPAC and using the aforementioned jet stream. It is evident that it works on SIN-EWR/JFK, so it could likely work for MAA-ATL.

Now, if we add ~800 mi to ATL-MAA to bypass restricted countries, that gives us 9,868 mi (using 9,068 mi from great circle mapper). This is actually more than Airbus's published range for the 350-900ULR.
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/news ... e-distance

Even adding ~800 mi to the other routes makes them under the range, but still improbable. If there is any sudden change in wind patterns, some kind of fuel leak occurs, etc, the stability of the route is gone and they will have to likely divert.

Meaning Russian and Afghanistani airspace is the biggest hurdle to seeing direct nonstops linking the US deep into India. The demand is there, an airplane exists that can fly the route (albeit shakily), and there will be enough of a drive for it within the next 10-15 years. All fate rests in the hands of when Russia/Afghanistan will relax the airspace restrictions, and then only the route becomes a question of when and not if.
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:13 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
phugoid1982 wrote:

Now, if we add ~800 mi to ATL-MAA to bypass restricted countries, that gives us 9,868 mi (using 9,068 mi from great circle mapper). This is actually more than Airbus's published range for the 350-900ULR.
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/news ... e-distance
.


Maybe I misread but according to the website the ULR has a range up to 9700 nm which is 11155 statute miles like I stated before so same as you I used GC Flight mapper as well for my calculations posted before. It looks feasible at least technically either way even avoiding Russian & Afghanistan airspace.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=atl-fra-ist-asb-maa (return flown same path but westward) 9530 miles total

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=maa-icn-atl (Return flow Eastwards for tailwind) 10458 miles total
 
pdxplanes837362
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:40 pm

leftcoast8 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I asked a similar question several years ago, and the answer I received was the historic Indian diaspora to North America tends to be from Northern Indian states with DEL as their logical gateway (with rail/bus links), and the more recent influx from the tech-heavy Southern Indian states.


This is true for the Indian community here in Vancouver, which is overwhelmingly Sikh, working-class, and hailing from Punjab state. This dates back to 1906, when farmers from Punjab emigrated to BC to help build the railroad, facing terrible discrimination and hatred all the while. Almost all the Vancouver-India traffic is VFR to Delhi or Amritsar, the latter requiring a 7 hour train ride until the Delhi-Katra Expressway is completed God knows when.

But my understanding is, in the U.S., most Indians are professionals from Maharashtra, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu and AP due to the restrictive American immigration system. I would have thought there'd be plenty of tech and financial demand for nonstop BOM flights from SFO, LAX, SEA, PDX (Intel in Beaverton and Hillsboro), AUS, SLC, DEN, PIT, etc.

phugoid1982 wrote:
LOL. Ask an Average South Indian and they'll say MAA is underserved with zero non-stop to the US.


I always wondered what the O&D demand drivers were between the U.S. and India. I know tech is big in BOM and BLR, plus finance/venture capitalists in BOM. MAA has a large pharma, aerospace and automotive industry so I could see LAX, DTW, SEA and EWR being possible nonstop ideas. I'd be interested in seeing U.S.-India O&D demand numbers.

Fun fact! Before 2008 when Northwest Airlines operated PDX-AMS and before the financial crisis/merger with DL they actually planned to turn have AMS route go on to BOM with Amsterdam being the refueling stop. Too bad it never turned to fruit, I know plenty of people in Portland who travel to india but have to take 2 or even 3 stops to get there.
 
Wednesdayite
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:19 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
pdxplanes837362 wrote:
leftcoast8 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I asked a similar question several years ago, and the answer I received was the historic Indian diaspora to North America tends to be from Northern Indian states with DEL as their logical gateway (with rail/bus links), and the more recent influx from the tech-heavy Southern Indian states.


This is true for the Indian community here in Vancouver, which is overwhelmingly Sikh, working-class, and hailing from Punjab state. This dates back to 1906, when farmers from Punjab emigrated to BC to help build the railroad, facing terrible discrimination and hatred all the while. Almost all the Vancouver-India traffic is VFR to Delhi or Amritsar, the latter requiring a 7 hour train ride until the Delhi-Katra Expressway is completed God knows when.

But my understanding is, in the U.S., most Indians are professionals from Maharashtra, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu and AP due to the restrictive American immigration system. I would have thought there'd be plenty of tech and financial demand for nonstop BOM flights from SFO, LAX, SEA, PDX (Intel in Beaverton and Hillsboro), AUS, SLC, DEN, PIT, etc.

phugoid1982 wrote:
LOL. Ask an Average South Indian and they'll say MAA is underserved with zero non-stop to the US.


I always wondered what the O&D demand drivers were between the U.S. and India. I know tech is big in BOM and BLR, plus finance/venture capitalists in BOM. MAA has a large pharma, aerospace and automotive industry so I could see LAX, DTW, SEA and EWR being possible nonstop ideas. I'd be interested in seeing U.S.-India O&D demand numbers.

Fun fact! Before 2008 when Northwest Airlines operated PDX-AMS and before the financial crisis/merger with DL they actually planned to turn have AMS route go on to BOM with Amsterdam being the refueling stop. Too bad it never turned to fruit, I know plenty of people in Portland who travel to india but have to take 2 or even 3 stops to get there.


In 2007, I flew on 5th freedom NWA flights between AMS and BOM. Do you know where in the U.S. that flight originated? From your post it wouldn’t have been PDX. Presumably MSP or DTW?
 
airboss787
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:18 pm

pdxplanes837362 wrote:
leftcoast8 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I asked a similar question several years ago, and the answer I received was the historic Indian diaspora to North America tends to be from Northern Indian states with DEL as their logical gateway (with rail/bus links), and the more recent influx from the tech-heavy Southern Indian states.


This is true for the Indian community here in Vancouver, which is overwhelmingly Sikh, working-class, and hailing from Punjab state. This dates back to 1906, when farmers from Punjab emigrated to BC to help build the railroad, facing terrible discrimination and hatred all the while. Almost all the Vancouver-India traffic is VFR to Delhi or Amritsar, the latter requiring a 7 hour train ride until the Delhi-Katra Expressway is completed God knows when.

But my understanding is, in the U.S., most Indians are professionals from Maharashtra, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu and AP due to the restrictive American immigration system. I would have thought there'd be plenty of tech and financial demand for nonstop BOM flights from SFO, LAX, SEA, PDX (Intel in Beaverton and Hillsboro), AUS, SLC, DEN, PIT, etc.

phugoid1982 wrote:
LOL. Ask an Average South Indian and they'll say MAA is underserved with zero non-stop to the US.


I always wondered what the O&D demand drivers were between the U.S. and India. I know tech is big in BOM and BLR, plus finance/venture capitalists in BOM. MAA has a large pharma, aerospace and automotive industry so I could see LAX, DTW, SEA and EWR being possible nonstop ideas. I'd be interested in seeing U.S.-India O&D demand numbers.

Fun fact! Before 2008 when Northwest Airlines operated PDX-AMS and before the financial crisis/merger with DL they actually planned to turn have AMS route go on to BOM with Amsterdam being the refueling stop. Too bad it never turned to fruit, I know plenty of people in Portland who travel to india but have to take 2 or even 3 stops to get there.


Delta operated to BOM from AMS till 2015 when they stopped flights and moved to nonstop ones a few years later.
 
pdxplanes837362
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:30 pm

What I was referring too was just a plan by NW for a refueling stop (and i presume to let off/pick up pax) in AMS before that plane continues directly to BOM but either the merger or financial crisis resulted in the plan getting scrapped.
 
Phobia07
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:09 pm

As a desi in PDX, a Mumbai flight from SFO or SEA would probably be better than PDX because those larger markets are so close. I usually fly via AMS which is one stop but LHR and FRA as well as HND provide other one stop options from PDX.
 
alan3
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:52 am

Wednesdayite wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
pdxplanes837362 wrote:
leftcoast8 wrote:

This is true for the Indian community here in Vancouver, which is overwhelmingly Sikh, working-class, and hailing from Punjab state. This dates back to 1906, when farmers from Punjab emigrated to BC to help build the railroad, facing terrible discrimination and hatred all the while. Almost all the Vancouver-India traffic is VFR to Delhi or Amritsar, the latter requiring a 7 hour train ride until the Delhi-Katra Expressway is completed God knows when.

But my understanding is, in the U.S., most Indians are professionals from Maharashtra, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu and AP due to the restrictive American immigration system. I would have thought there'd be plenty of tech and financial demand for nonstop BOM flights from SFO, LAX, SEA, PDX (Intel in Beaverton and Hillsboro), AUS, SLC, DEN, PIT, etc.



I always wondered what the O&D demand drivers were between the U.S. and India. I know tech is big in BOM and BLR, plus finance/venture capitalists in BOM. MAA has a large pharma, aerospace and automotive industry so I could see LAX, DTW, SEA and EWR being possible nonstop ideas. I'd be interested in seeing U.S.-India O&D demand numbers.

Fun fact! Before 2008 when Northwest Airlines operated PDX-AMS and before the financial crisis/merger with DL they actually planned to turn have AMS route go on to BOM with Amsterdam being the refueling stop. Too bad it never turned to fruit, I know plenty of people in Portland who travel to india but have to take 2 or even 3 stops to get there.


In 2007, I flew on 5th freedom NWA flights between AMS and BOM. Do you know where in the U.S. that flight originated? From your post it wouldn’t have been PDX. Presumably MSP or DTW?


I flew MSP-AMS-BOM way back in around 2002, and remember deplaning in AMS and the BOM portion was a totally new flight. I think the AMS-BOM flight was operated as a completely separate flight not as a second leg of anything, regardless of where the actual aircraft originated. I remember MSP-AMS being a DC10 but can't remember if AMS-BOM was a DC10 or 747.

Pre-merger Delta did a similar thing with CDG-BOM at the same time because I remember seeing their BOM-CDG from the neighboring gate in BOM.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:55 am

alan3 wrote:

I flew MSP-AMS-BOM way back in around 2002, and remember deplaning in AMS and the BOM portion was a totally new flight. I think the AMS-BOM flight was operated as a completely separate flight not as a second leg of anything, regardless of where the actual aircraft originated. I remember MSP-AMS being a DC10 but can't remember if AMS-BOM was a DC10 or 747.


NW flew both the 747 and the DC10 on AMS-BOM. I remember flying BOM-AMS on the 747 in 2003 and then AMS-BOM-AMS on the DC10 in December 2004 and January 2005.
 
Wednesdayite
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:47 am

DTWLAX wrote:
alan3 wrote:

I flew MSP-AMS-BOM way back in around 2002, and remember deplaning in AMS and the BOM portion was a totally new flight. I think the AMS-BOM flight was operated as a completely separate flight not as a second leg of anything, regardless of where the actual aircraft originated. I remember MSP-AMS being a DC10 but can't remember if AMS-BOM was a DC10 or 747.


NW flew both the 747 and the DC10 on AMS-BOM. I remember flying BOM-AMS on the 747 in 2003 and then AMS-BOM-AMS on the DC10 in December 2004 and January 2005.


According to my log, my NW flights between AMS and BOM were both on an A330-2. That was April 2007.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:13 pm

was playing around with GC mapper and I found an interesting routing for ATL-BOM.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=bom-doh-tu ... =wls&DU=km
It avoids all the airspaces it needs to, but It's about 800km longer than the Great Circle route, meaning it's about 14600km. Now, published range for A350-900 is 15,000km, but, as bashed on here, many think that DL's A350s are range restricted because of the whole JNB fiasco. Given that this route is 1,000km longer than ATL-JNB, will DL's A350 struggle on this?
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:22 pm

Wednesdayite wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
alan3 wrote:

I flew MSP-AMS-BOM way back in around 2002, and remember deplaning in AMS and the BOM portion was a totally new flight. I think the AMS-BOM flight was operated as a completely separate flight not as a second leg of anything, regardless of where the actual aircraft originated. I remember MSP-AMS being a DC10 but can't remember if AMS-BOM was a DC10 or 747.


NW flew both the 747 and the DC10 on AMS-BOM. I remember flying BOM-AMS on the 747 in 2003 and then AMS-BOM-AMS on the DC10 in December 2004 and January 2005.


According to my log, my NW flights between AMS and BOM were both on an A330-2. That was April 2007.

Yes that is because I think NW stopped flying the DC-10 by late 2005/early 2006 and switched the route to the at that time newer A330s.
 
sea13
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:01 am

Emirates.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Why is BOM so underserved to North America?

Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:30 pm

sea13 wrote:
Emirates.


Probably not the only reason, but it certainly plays into it. Probably has to do with distance and range. Yield in a few years certainly won't be as big as a problem as it is right now, due to the growing economy. But, BOM in particular is harder not only because of airspace regulations, but other problems. DEL is/was being served by places along the US east coast as well as ORD at one time. The south indian places like BLR, MAA, etc are in the future going to get more service to the US west coast likely, maybe a JFK-MAA flight could do well too.

BOM is farther down south than DEL, and on average flight times are longer there. I've heard DL's ATL-BOM nonstop back in 2009 was 17 hours and 55 minutes, probably dipping into 18 hours if the winds aren't in your favor! For reference, the SIN-EWR/JFK flights of today are 18 and a half hours roughly. Also, Mumbai has constraint issues, as it only uses one runway at a time and there is a lot of housing near the airport that is abandoned and could be dismantled.

However, the constraint issues will be fixed when Navi mumbai airport enters service, and, from ATL at least, I've seen a thread on here where BOM ranks higher than DEL, HYD, and BLR in terms of PDEW. I could see JFK-BOM and ATL-BOM happening in a few years, after Navi Mumbai is built and after Russian airspace opens up.

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