According to Dutch site Luchtvaartnieuws.nl LH had lost it's 5 star rating from skytracks. As of now only some Asian carriers have a 5 star rating. Personally I think nothing of skytracks but this must be disappointing for LH

For some time now Lufthansa has been competing in the race to the bottom, so I wonder why there are any stars left

It was paid for in the first place. A nonexistent business class product was used to justify giving the airline 5 stars which tells you all you need to know about it’s validity.

In the current environment LH can’t justify throwing the cash to maintain a “5 star” PR label. Honestly they should have 3 at best.

Honestly until LH has a better business class hard product it's not worth them paying for their 5 stars!

Oooops, the check didn't clear....

Skytrax is a joke. Getting a 5 star rating is about as difficult as being legacy student donating a $2 mil to Harvard and getting NOT getting in.

Everything has become Yelp these days. Heck, in my own field, there's "Rate Your Teacher", a revenge-porn-like site where those with an axe to grind do it publicly.

It's the same here. Yes, the airlines have relentlessly over-promised with their schedules and many times under-delivered, but it's not like that's a big secret. And those that feel "wronged" take it out on (insert business here).

Here's the metrics/statistics that I want to see:

1) What do I get for the money?
2) On-time percentages excluding weather
3) Cancellation percentages excluding weather
4) On-time percentage including weather
5) Cancellation percentages including weather

Far, FAR down the list is what an instagram influencer thought of the airline when free stuff wasn't immediately thrust upon them.

Yes, I know, that's not how these sites work (wink, wink), but it is still ludicrous to expect someone's list to be so highly regarded.

Skytrax really thought Lufthansa could be in the same category as Singapore Airlines lol

Skytrax is the Nielsen Audio Ratings of aviation. Our US friends would know what that means. Pay-to-play.

The deterioration of Skytrax was quite shocking over the years. Initially, it was pretty good, and IMO did indeed select the best airlines of the year and rate them appropriately, but as time went on it just became a corrupt mess. Giving LH five stars for a business class product that was due to come in at some point in the distant future, and to an airline with BoB in economy, was the point of no return for its credibility. As others have said, the idea it could be compared to SQ, CX or NH was laughable. Hopefully, this correction signifies a turnaround in its objectivity and thus its future credibility.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468527&start=450#p23357167
This was discussed in the general Lufthansa thread some days ago. As mentioned there, I totally agree with the drop. As they are planning new products in all classes over the next few years, starting with the new business, maybe they can redeem their fifth star, but I highly doubt their service level will improve significantly, as it just went down for the last few years. Especially in Economy class Lufthansa became a Low Cost Carrier with Premium-prices...

It was hilarious they were even there in the first place. The justification that their future business class made them worthy of a 5 star rating today was a joke. No airline without a 1-2-1 business class should even be considered for 5 stars imho

Lufthansa and it’s Group is nothing better or even worse than Ryanair and even the business class is below average.

Worst you can’t contact the airline, if you need to do any changes or if you are affected by a cancellation. Nobody will support you or you are ready to wait the duration of a long haul flight in their phone line provided you have a status card.

Who owns Skytrax? Who is behind them and who runs them? Is it an NGO or a real business?

Blerg wrote:

Who owns Skytrax? Who is behind them and who runs them? Is it an NGO or a real business?

It's not an NGO but a real business, a company. They themselves made that clear. Their awards are free and "non-profit", as those are voted by customers. Their star rating however costs money (if the airline wants to use them for marketing, it costs apparently somewhat between 15,000 and 25,000€ per year). The evaluation itself is free, the detailed results of the audit can be bought by the airline.

Therefore you can at least doubt a fully independent and unbiased rating.

conaly wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Who owns Skytrax? Who is behind them and who runs them? Is it an NGO or a real business?

It's not an NGO but a real business, a company. They themselves made that clear. Their awards are free and "non-profit", as those are voted by customers. Their star rating however costs money (if the airline wants to use them for marketing, it costs apparently somewhat between 15,000 and 25,000€ per year). The evaluation itself is free, the detailed results of the audit can be bought by the airline.

Therefore you can at least doubt a fully independent and unbiased rating.

Interesting, thank you.

What a shocker… not.
This year out of 4 flights the lost my luggage twice and failed to get me a connecting flight in a timely manner after their own delays.
Never again. Literally.

conaly wrote:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468527&start=450#p23357167
This was discussed in the general Lufthansa thread some days ago. As mentioned there, I totally agree with the drop. As they are planning new products in all classes over the next few years, starting with the new business, maybe they can redeem their fifth star, but I highly doubt their service level will improve significantly, as it just went down for the last few years. Especially in Economy class Lufthansa became a Low Cost Carrier with Premium-prices...

That's the problem with all those mega threads, I don't read all of those.

Flanker7 wrote:

That's the problem with all those mega threads, I don't read all of those.

That's an explanation, but not an excuse ;P

Having seen a Skytrax audit done up close i have from that point on never valued it for more than the paper it was written on. The amount of bending over backwards for the auditor was beyond belief and to an extent that an average flying pasenger would likely never get to experience unless perhaps you are a celebrity. If i want to get an impression of an airline there's plenty of other ways to get that.

conaly wrote:

Flanker7 wrote:

That's the problem with all those mega threads, I don't read all of those.

That's an explanation, but not an excuse ;P

And what's is it that I have to excuse myself for?

Flanker7 wrote:

And what's is it that I have to excuse myself for?

For taking this waaay too seriously

I just took Lufthansa for a honeymoon, and was shocked at how poor the service was compared to last time I flew them 7 years ago. The long haul staff (747-8I there and A340-600 back) were friendly, but the food was lousy and skimpy. On the short connecting flights in Europe (A320), we might as well have been on Spirit. The seats were so cramped I couldn't believe it, and we couldn't even get a cup of water without paying. Thank god the short flights were only 1-2 hours. It was about $2500 round-trip out of LAX, and they broke the wheels off one of our new suitcases coming home.

Also, making me paying an extra $40 per seat, per leg, just to sit next to my new wife is pretty rotten.

Im not sure knowing ontime performance with weather related cancellations is particularly helpful…

9MMPQ wrote:

Having seen a Skytrax audit done up close i have from that point on never valued it for more than the paper it was written on. The amount of bending over backwards for the auditor was beyond belief and to an extent that an average flying pasenger would likely never get to experience unless perhaps you are a celebrity. If i want to get an impression of an airline there's plenty of other ways to get that.

I’ve been told Skytrax tells airlines “give us the ultimate best you’ve got and we will review you” which to prove your point, it is an unrealistic evaluation as it’s not set on experience, but rather perfection, which isn’t reality

i just sat in biz class from san diego to munich last week and honestly the product, for what you pay, is terrible. AA/UA/DL all have way better trans Atlantic business products.

Can't speak for up front, but down the back I found LH incredibly disappointing. Not sure if anything has changed since then, but flew them LAX-FRA a few months ago...no choice of meal, one beverage run, no bar service. Didn't see the FAs again until "breakfast" (just fruit and a single wafer of a Nature Valley granola bar). US carriers always catch a lot of flack, but LH was the most spartan long-haul flying experience I've had to date. No desire to fly with them again.

Five years ago, LH said it was installing the new business class, and immediately received a 5 star rating. KLM launched its new business class in 2013, albeit in a 2-2-2 configuration. In 2015, KLM introduced the herringbone variant 1-2-1 configuration. This year all business class 2-2-2 will now be replaced by herringbone configuration 1-2-1 with sliding doors.

KLM was quite late in installing their business product, but in the last five years they are already going for their third type of business class seats.

The mere fact that this airline even had a 5 star rating to loose in the first place is... loathable

For quite some time, LH succeeded in living off its reputation as a top service airline while actually delivering a very substandard product. Slowly, the flying public has come to realize this. On transatlantic flights, I personally prefer any of the 3 big U.S. carriers. In general, their service is honest and down to earth while LH's is, to me, inferior but pretentious.

ratp101 wrote:

For quite some time, LH succeeded in living off its reputation as a top service airline while actually delivering a very substandard product. Slowly, the flying public has come to realize this. On transatlantic flights, I personally prefer any of the 3 big U.S. carriers. In general, their service is honest and down to earth while LH's is, to me, inferior but pretentious.

I have to admit that I was one of those people. I fly to the US once to twice a year from Europe and I always avoided US carriers because I thought their product was inferior. Then some years ago I flew ORD-MUC on UA's B763 and actually found their product to be decent (minus the crew). Since then I actually don't mind flying on UA across the pond and have done it several times. Next up is DL to SLC so we'll see how that goes.

Lufthansa used to have such a strong brand here in Europe. People would fly them just because they were Lufthansa. Their product has deteriorated but so has FRA. You can't be a successful carrier without having a modern airport to accommodate your growth. They are lucky they have MUC.

Does anyone even look at Skytrax, been a bit of a joke for some time.
That said, LH 5 star. Nope!

LH completely lost its aura. They are on a race to the bottom. So un-inspiring, living from the past. But I guess they represent Germany as a whole very well. The country lives from its past achievements but has fallen behind in so many areas in the meantime.

With Skytrax you get what you pay for.

I was star alliance gold for 15 years and I can't count the number of times LH screwed up my travel. They are a budget airline with 5 star prices. Additionally, they completely ruined Swiss.

flyguy89 wrote:

Can't speak for up front, but down the back I found LH incredibly disappointing. Not sure if anything has changed since then, but flew them LAX-FRA a few months ago...no choice of meal, one beverage run, no bar service. Didn't see the FAs again until "breakfast" (just fruit and a single wafer of a Nature Valley granola bar). US carriers always catch a lot of flack, but LH was the most spartan long-haul flying experience I've had to date. No desire to fly with them again.

Wholly agree with you. LH is simply living on reputation while delivering ULCC level services charging legacy fares. Despite United's negative reputation, they are so much better than Lufthansa for transatlantic economy in 2022. United's IFE is much better, and they keep the cabin at a much more comfortable temperature. At least you get a choice for main meals with meat and not just LH's vegetarian pasta. There will likely be no mid-flight snack service, but at least there will likely be some pretzels/banana/water in the back that they're not charging for. FA service is a draw; there will be excellent and surly crew on both airlines.

Not to mention UA standard economy still allows free seat selection, while LH extorts you $40 per leg in both basic and standard economy!

My experience with LH flights have never been amazing and it was always a head scratcher to me that it considers itself a "premium" carrier. The hard product is just so so. The cabin crews I've encountered on my travels with them were generally fine, but there was nothing in their approach that would suggest a top notch service ethos. My most recent flights in 2021 and 2022 were delayed by over an hour. The business class on the 747-8i, A330s, and A350s I've been on are nothing special.

BiggerJetsPlz wrote:

I just took Lufthansa for a honeymoon, and was shocked at how poor the service was compared to last time I flew them 7 years ago. The long haul staff (747-8I there and A340-600 back) were friendly, but the food was lousy and skimpy. On the short connecting flights in Europe (A320), we might as well have been on Spirit. The seats were so cramped I couldn't believe it, and we couldn't even get a cup of water without paying. Thank god the short flights were only 1-2 hours. It was about $2500 round-trip out of LAX, and they broke the wheels off one of our new suitcases coming home.

Also, making me paying an extra $40 per seat, per leg, just to sit next to my new wife is pretty rotten.

Give it another 10 years and you will understand the service and the care an airline takes for you if you do not need to sit next to your wife(and god forbid own kids) free of charge.

vegas005 wrote:

Additionally, they completely ruined Swiss.

How so? I actually flew Swiss on my return leg and was going to add how much better the experience in economy was with them…choice of THREE meals, bar service, too many drink runs to count, robust self service snack bar, three total meal services. Thought Swiss was amazing by contrast, which was odd since I know LH owns them.

flyguy89 wrote:

vegas005 wrote:

Additionally, they completely ruined Swiss.

How so? I actually flew Swiss on my return leg and was going to add how much better the experience in economy was with them…choice of THREE meals, bar service, too many drink runs to count, robust self service snack bar, three total meal services. Thought Swiss was amazing by contrast, which was odd since I know LH owns them.

Maybe he is referring to their medium and short-haul flights where they went full LCC.

jetlaggedAF wrote:

No airline without a 1-2-1 business class should even be considered for 5 stars imho

I did my first LH long haul flight back in May of this year. It was on the 748 JNB-FRA in Business (lower deck). Honestly, besides the wonderful flight attendant serving us, everything else about the flight was a disappointment.

But here's my question: How do you do 1-2-1 in Business class when you have that very wide cabin in a 748? It seems like a terrible waste of space.

About time they lose it. I don't even know why they got it in the first place. SkyTrax ratings don't mean much more to me anymore (yes, admittedly I used to hold them with high regard). I think Qatar Airways is pretty much the only airline that only really care about it with their frivolous and relentless advertising. Though I find their cabins to be well designed, they're nothing special. I still find QF and CX to be way above QR especially the crew. Until recently, AF-KL short haul is miles above LH and BA.

When it comes to PEY, AF and AA has superb product and service. BA comes close second. I don't get why LH didn't install cabin dividers between PEY and Y alongside Swiss and Iberia (A350). There's just no exclusivity.


Just my two cents.

I agree with sam chui when he say the skytracks (and the other) ratings are subjective, I wonder why they had 5 stars while equivalent airlines sometimes didn't.

I remember SAA used to load special catering and extra crew for Skytrax audit flights. Complete scam

jetlaggedAF wrote:

No airline without a 1-2-1 business class should even be considered for 5 stars imho

I think running APEX suites at 2-2-2 is fine, I would rather have that than the high density reverse herringbone Finnair A350 gets.

I have been a loyal LH customer throughout the past years but what is going on now is beyond belief. One simply can’t go on supporting them.

I’ve done eight flights in the past weeks. None of them was great, a few were horrible.

To start with, they cut the lounge in my home town. It was nice to have a coffee and a snack in the morning before the red eye flight out to FRA or MUC. That’s gone. On board, you get a bottle of water. At least that’s been consistent. I don’t need that old sandwich back but a coffee in the morning or a nice wine / beer in the evening. That’s gone, too. Cabin crew was incredible on almost all of the flights. Incredibly indifferent towards passengers. It seems they have kept those FAs they couldn’t get rid of. It is embarrassing. Literally no one would go the extra mile.

Needless to say that out of eight flights seven were delayed. One Vienna - Bremen trip took me 11 hours instead of four.

Friday was also nice: Flight from MAN to MUC was delayed by one hour. The last flight in the evening and everyone on board wanted to know about connections in MUC. After landing, the purser came on the intercom and said: I’m sorry, I don’t have any information for you. But all flights are delayed so you’re most probably going to be lucky. Well, my flight wasn’t but through an Usain Bolt sprint I came onboard my flight sweating like a pig, on the last call. Thank God there was this nice little bottle of warm water….

Honestly, this is a shame.

T54A wrote:

I remember SAA used to load special catering and extra crew for Skytrax audit flights. Complete scam

What's the point if they knew which flights were going to be audited? That should be kept a secret by Skytrax, much like how restaurant critiques (not the vlogging/Instagram ones) never schedule their visit to a restaurant in advance.

Spiderguy252 wrote:

T54A wrote:

I remember SAA used to load special catering and extra crew for Skytrax audit flights. Complete scam

What's the point if they knew which flights were going to be audited? That should be kept a secret by Skytrax, much like how restaurant critiques (not the vlogging/Instagram ones) never schedule their visit to a restaurant in advance.

Exactly, it’s all a joke. Skytrax makes money and airline gets a good rating